The Androl Thread

[huskylord]

Anyone else think Sanderson was playing a whole lot of Portal when he was writing the Androl chapters?

[Charred Knight]

Androl may have been more competent and a better person, but Logain was the figure who inspired all those men to resist. Yes, fate is unfair and some people are destined for glory who don't wholly deserve it. IMHO, that was a pretty brilliant twist.

 

I am pretty sure that wasnt Sanderson's point (at least I hope not)

 

"Logain may not be as powerful as Androl, he may not be as smart as Androl but his got power levels are over 9000, he has great hair and looks good in black so he gets the glory despite not actually deserving it"

 

And Logain's charisma would be an interesting thing if Sanderson's writing actual conveyed that charisma.  There is no way anyone would actually follow Logain the way Sanderson wrote him.  Even his big scene were he rescued all those people had more to do with the fact that he rescued them than any actual charisma on Logain's part.  At no point in time does Sanderson actual portray Logain as having any real leadership abilities.  At times it came off like Sanderson resented Jordan for saddling him with Logain instead of the Asha'man Sanderson wanted to write about which was Androl. 

[Cirin]

While on the one hand I didn't particularly mind Androl's role, even before knowing that he was the character Brandon Sanderson decided to make his own I felt he was doing a little too much, and twisting the rules of the world in a way that seemed... contrary to the way the world has been shaped prior to this.

 

I don't have a problem with Androl having natural leadership skills, although I did find the fact that he had been everywhere and done everything kind of overly convenient, or even that he had a Talent for traveling, but I didn't like the way that the Talent ended up working out.  Now, when I read the book I didn't know that Brandon Sanderson had really marked Androl as his own, and it bugged me then, but after finding that out... well, the more I reflected on it the more disappointed I became.  There were multiple Asha'man who had been involved in the story prior to this point... to assign all of these different tasks that needed to be completed to Androl seems overly redundant.  Throw a bone to one of the other Asha'man we've been following for six books.

 

What I think bugged me the most, however, was the way that his talent worked out.  Now, I don't know how it came down in Robert Jordan's notes, Androl's Talent for traveling may very well have been Robert Jordan's idea, but the way that it played out seemed contrary to the way that the Wheel of Time has worked thus far.  By making Androl pretty worthless in anything but making Gateways, at which he was unbelievably better than anyone else, he essentially made Androl into a super hero.  "I have the power of gateways, and use them in all sorts of ways!"  It just doesn't fit with the idea of the weaving, the interplay of the five powers, etc.

 

Many people have mentioned that the creative use of gateways was neat, and that it was about time, but I was actually disappointed with it.  I certainly don't have an issue with people who did enjoy it, we're all entitled our opinion, but to me it felt like it was violating the internal balance system that was in place.  I think the biggest thing that broke this balance was the fact that Androl could make portals to places without knowing where they were or what they looked like.  Part of the reason that no one had dumped lava on trollocs before was because who knows what a flaming vent in the earth looks like well enough to open a gateway there?  Oh, they could maybe guess, but they talked earlier about that being a crap shoot, and a dangerous one.  That was why they had to use "Skimming" earlier in the books - because they didn't have a good mental image of the place they were trying to get to.  To allow Androl to just pop portals to wherever he pleases, even if it is a part of his talent, is to break that talent to the extreme and make him, as I said before, a super hero.

 

That being said, I didn't really mind his story arc, I thought he as a character was interesting enough (albeit too well traveled), but I did feel he was used far more than was warranted for a minor character after 14 books and would've preferred to see much of what he did passed out among other people, or even left to circumstance.

[Celebel]

What I think bugged me the most, however, was the way that his talent worked out.  Now, I don't know how it came down in Robert Jordan's notes, Androl's Talent for traveling may very well have been Robert Jordan's idea, but the way that it played out seemed contrary to the way that the Wheel of Time has worked thus far.  By making Androl pretty worthless in anything but making Gateways, at which he was unbelievably better than anyone else, he essentially made Androl into a super hero.  "I have the power of gateways, and use them in all sorts of ways!"  It just doesn't fit with the idea of the weaving, the interplay of the five powers, etc.

 

Couldn't disagree more. RJ himself set the foundation for it, with that one Kinswoman, who was too weak to become an Accepted, but had a tremendious Shielding talent. Also, with some Kinswomen having Healing Talents that far outstripped what was supposed to be feasible for their overall strength. There was also a weak AS with the Talent of making cueindillar (the one murdered by Halima), etc.

 

And really, the idea that in addition to just raw OP power, there is another variable, makes channeling fights a little more interesting. I mean, physical fights would be very boring too, if the strongest, biggest fighter was always guaranteed to win. Perrins would just pawn everybody and Mats would have no chance, heh.

 

Jordan also said in some interview or QA that Talents of those with latent channeling potential often subconsciously affect their choices in life. Like, somebody with a strong Healing Talent would be more likely to become a herbwoman or whatever mundane medic equivalent. Which is why many of the older recruits after Egwene's reform were very good at Healing.

 

So, it is logical that somebody with a latent Travelling Talent would have liked to move around a lot.

 

Re: Travelling being overpowered, with all respect this is Jordan's responsibility. Travelling as described by him  required you to know the ground you are on, not your goal (that was Skimming).

And he side-stepped even this restriction in TPoD/KoD, postulating that you can Travel within line of sight without learning your ground, then Travel  back to where you started and thus instantly "learn" the ground. 

Further, RJ was the one who made everybody of sufficient strength capable of Travelling, people who were too weak still being capable of learning the weave and using it with an angreal or a circle  _and_ made it possible to make bigger Travelling portals in a mixed link, even though in LoC he described saidin and saidar Travelling as working  on completely different principles.

 

The way Jordan's Travelling worked towards the end, well it was pretty unbelieveable that it could ever have been forgotten and/or wasn't used all the time. It also pretty much invalidated a lot of normal military startegies and tactics.

 

So, Travelling as described by Jordan was virtually an unlimited ability and Androl not having to do quick line of sight hops to "learn" the ground is an insignificant improvement. It wasn't what enabled him to do the lava gateways - anybody of sufficent strength/in a circle could have done it. It just didn't occur to them.

 

I do agree that Androl's background was built up a little too much - personally, I was OK with him being a wide-travelled merchant with forays into leather-working and rebellion, as he seemed to be after ToM.

 

I also agree that Androl swiping the Seals was a bit overboard. In fact, this whole section left me  confused, because he, Pevara and their group were hunting Taim in order to kill him, right? Even if it turned out to be a suicide mission. And then they found him and didn't even try.

Also, while the Seals bit explained why Taim gave Rand a Seal  despite being a Darkfriend, it made zero sense for him to still have them. Given how important the timing of breaking them was going to be, I just can't see Ishamael and Demandred leaving it to his discretion.

 

Nevertheless, it is a testimony to how little character developement the "established" Asha'man received under Jordan and how their roles were mainly tied to their raw OP strength to the exclusion of everything else, that I prefer Androl, Emarin and Joneth to them.

[Charred Knight]

Jonneth doesnt get character development outside he has a wife, and Emarin's development is that his a lord of Tear.  Out of Logain's group only Androl and Logain ever really got development, it wasnt like Emarin and Jonneth did anything either, the only person who actually did anything (outside of Logain at the very end) was Androl.  He was the one who rescued Logain, he was the one who scared of Taim, and Graendal (you know your character is overpowered when two Foresaken look at you and run away), he was the one who got the seals, he was the guy who dropped lava on the Shadow, he was the one who got back the seals.  

[Elan Tedronai]

Brilliant sanderson well done for creating a weak assed ashaman like androl who took all of logains glory.

 

killed another jordan story arc that was building up since book 6.

[Agitel]

 

Androl may have been more competent and a better person, but Logain was the figure who inspired all those men to resist. Yes, fate is unfair and some people are destined for glory who don't wholly deserve it. IMHO, that was a pretty brilliant twist.

 

I am pretty sure that wasnt Sanderson's point (at least I hope not)

 

"Logain may not be as powerful as Androl, he may not be as smart as Androl but his got power levels are over 9000, he has great hair and looks good in black so he gets the glory despite not actually deserving it"

 

And Logain's charisma would be an interesting thing if Sanderson's writing actual conveyed that charisma.  There is no way anyone would actually follow Logain the way Sanderson wrote him.  Even his big scene were he rescued all those people had more to do with the fact that he rescued them than any actual charisma on Logain's part.  At no point in time does Sanderson actual portray Logain as having any real leadership abilities.  At times it came off like Sanderson resented Jordan for saddling him with Logain instead of the Asha'man Sanderson wanted to write about which was Androl. 

 

Logain's personality was twisted, remember. We didn't have his POVs before that. I think Logain's always had a bit of a vain and selfish streak, even under Jordan, but the attempted Turning made it worse.

 

And Logain's glory didn't come during the Last Battle, nor do I think it's supposed to. Logain's character arc set him on the path to achieve that glory afterwards as leader of the Asha'man.

[Charred Knight]

Logain's personality was twisted, remember. We didn't have his POVs before that. I think Logain's always had a bit of a vain and selfish streak, even under Jordan, but the attempted Turning made it worse.

 

And Logain's glory didn't come during the Last Battle, nor do I think it's supposed to. Logain's character arc set him on the path to achieve that glory afterwards as leader of the Asha'man.

 

Which to me is a cheap trick to mess up Logain's character so he doesn't have to actually write him as an actual leader.  The Wheel of Time series has been talking about Logain's Glory for ten books, thats longer than 20 years, I expect to actually see even a hint of what Jordan meant but all I got was Logain hanging out with the much more awesome and competent Androl.  I didn't care about the Black Tower because of Androl I cared about it because of people like Logain, Taim, and Toveine.

[Cirin]

 

What I think bugged me the most, however, was the way that his talent worked out.  Now, I don't know how it came down in Robert Jordan's notes, Androl's Talent for traveling may very well have been Robert Jordan's idea, but the way that it played out seemed contrary to the way that the Wheel of Time has worked thus far.  By making Androl pretty worthless in anything but making Gateways, at which he was unbelievably better than anyone else, he essentially made Androl into a super hero.  "I have the power of gateways, and use them in all sorts of ways!"  It just doesn't fit with the idea of the weaving, the interplay of the five powers, etc.

 

Couldn't disagree more. RJ himself set the foundation for it, with that one Kinswoman, who was too weak to become an Accepted, but had a tremendious Shielding talent. Also, with some Kinswomen having Healing Talents that far outstripped what was supposed to be feasible for their overall strength. There was also a weak AS with the Talent of making cueindillar (the one murdered by Halima), etc.

 

And really, the idea that in addition to just raw OP power, there is another variable, makes channeling fights a little more interesting. I mean, physical fights would be very boring too, if the strongest, biggest fighter was always guaranteed to win. Perrins would just pawn everybody and Mats would have no chance, heh.

 

Jordan also said in some interview or QA that Talents of those with latent channeling potential often subconsciously affect their choices in life. Like, somebody with a strong Healing Talent would be more likely to become a herbwoman or whatever mundane medic equivalent. Which is why many of the older recruits after Egwene's reform were very good at Healing.

 

So, it is logical that somebody with a latent Travelling Talent would have liked to move around a lot.

 

Re: Travelling being overpowered, with all respect this is Jordan's responsibility. Travelling as described by him  required you to know the ground you are on, not your goal (that was Skimming).

And he side-stepped even this restriction in TPoD/KoD, postulating that you can Travel within line of sight without learning your ground, then Travel  back to where you started and thus instantly "learn" the ground. 

Further, RJ was the one who made everybody of sufficient strength capable of Travelling, people who were too weak still being capable of learning the weave and using it with an angreal or a circle  _and_ made it possible to make bigger Travelling portals in a mixed link, even though in LoC he described saidin and saidar Travelling as working  on completely different principles.

 

The way Jordan's Travelling worked towards the end, well it was pretty unbelieveable that it could ever have been forgotten and/or wasn't used all the time. It also pretty much invalidated a lot of normal military startegies and tactics.

 

So, Travelling as described by Jordan was virtually an unlimited ability and Androl not having to do quick line of sight hops to "learn" the ground is an insignificant improvement. It wasn't what enabled him to do the lava gateways - anybody of sufficent strength/in a circle could have done it. It just didn't occur to them.

 

It doesn't particularly matter whether Androl's ability was Sanderson's flair or whether it was the way Jordan wanted it... even if Robert Jordan had written the book, I think it would have felt contrary to the world he had established prior to this.  Because Androl's only real ability with the one power was Traveling, it's all well and good that he would experiment with gateways... but using miniscule ones to cut leather, giant ones to summon lava, even summoning his tea from his workshop in the Black Tower?  Did he somehow open the portal in between the tea and the table, or did he just slice a whole in the table surface?  He may as well have been straight up conjuring things into existence.

 

As for others being able to do this if they thought about it, he has an exchange with Pevara that indicates that's not the case - where she wonders how he knew there was a mountain spring with water in it nearby, and he mentions he didn't really, must just be part of his Talent.  If he has the ability to just open gateways to bring whatever he needs or take him to wherever he needs to go, that's tipping the power balance scale a little too much in his favor.  I think that's what I disliked about it.  He became not so much a deus ex machina, but a walking deus ex machina dispenser.

 

But, if you enjoyed the way his power worked, that's fine.  I just personally didn't enjoy his character as much as I would've enjoyed seeing other characters that we'd been following for longer do more... or even if he used his gateways to get people places, instead of summoning stuff to him.

[Celebel]

but using miniscule ones to cut leather, giant ones to summon lava, even summoning his tea from his workshop in the Black Tower?

Tea was too much, I grant you (not to mention would have caused some property damage and might have killed someone), but all the rest is wholly in line with the Black Tower philosophy of doing everything with OP.

 

As for others being able to do this if they thought about it, he has an exchange with Pevara that indicates that's not the case - where she wonders how he knew there was a mountain spring with water in it nearby, and he mentions he didn't really, must just be part of his Talent.

It was a mistake of Sanderson to even include this conversation. That's how Travelling as depicted by Jordan always worked. You didn't need to know your destination, just your starting point. And even that was rendered irrelevant in tPoD. That's how Aviendha ended up in Seanchan with her first gateway, after all!

 

Was Jordan's Travelling overpowered? Yes, and IMHO it was a big mistake on his part to make it both so powerful and so widespread. It should have remained a rare Talent that only a handful of modern channelers posesses. But Androl is certainly a logical outgrowth of Jordan's choices in that matter.

 

And yea, despite Androl doing a bit too much for my liking, even taking into account that it was not just him, but also Pevara and his guys, I really liked him and his gang more than the older characters, who just weren't given enough developement beyond their strength in OP and/or were paired with Aes Sedai with no personality.

And I have always liked Pevara, who _was_ an interesting established character with somewhat detailed background.

I also prefer their interactions to most other male-female interactions in WoT, eh.

To each their own, I guess.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

Androl may have been more competent and a better person, but Logain was the figure who inspired all those men to resist. Yes, fate is unfair and some people are destined for glory who don't wholly deserve it. IMHO, that was a pretty brilliant twist.

 

I am pretty sure that wasnt Sanderson's point (at least I hope not)

 

"Logain may not be as powerful as Androl, he may not be as smart as Androl but his got power levels are over 9000, he has great hair and looks good in black so he gets the glory despite not actually deserving it"

 

And Logain's charisma would be an interesting thing if Sanderson's writing actual conveyed that charisma.  There is no way anyone would actually follow Logain the way Sanderson wrote him.  Even his big scene were he rescued all those people had more to do with the fact that he rescued them than any actual charisma on Logain's part.  At no point in time does Sanderson actual portray Logain as having any real leadership abilities.  At times it came off like Sanderson resented Jordan for saddling him with Logain instead of the Asha'man Sanderson wanted to write about which was Androl. 

 

 

I think BS was trying to portray a broken Logain, which he did well. While I wanted Logain to do more, I was glad to see him kinda sulky and crappy. He held out from being turned for days. He won out but was horribly scarred inside. He had just about given up on humanity. He had become almost like one of the Forsaken. Kinda Lanfear-ish - not really one anyone's side but his own. He actually was having a bit of a Dark Rand moment. And considering the entire series is based on the fact that things get twisted in the making and through time, it made complete sense to me how he won his glory. 

I think a lot of the big "I wonder how this is going to go down"s in the book were a let down for people because they were thinking about them in epic ways. Example - Alviara, how would she help Rand die? I actually kinda like that some of these ended up being less epic and more human. 

Logain gave up his lust for power for self because he was tired of being pushed around because someone told him there were regular old children being hurt. What's wrong with coming back to the light side and winning your glory from that?

[Charred Knight]

I think BS was trying to portray a broken Logain, which he did well. While I wanted Logain to do more, I was glad to see him kinda sulky and crappy. He held out from being turned for days. He won out but was horribly scarred inside. He had just about given up on humanity. He had become almost like one of the Forsaken. Kinda Lanfear-ish - not really one anyone's side but his own. He actually was having a bit of a Dark Rand moment. And considering the entire series is based on the fact that things get twisted in the making and through time, it made complete sense to me how he won his glory. 

I think a lot of the big "I wonder how this is going to go down"s in the book were a let down for people because they were thinking about them in epic ways. Example - Alviara, how would she help Rand die? I actually kinda like that some of these ended up being less epic and more human. 

Logain gave up his lust for power for self because he was tired of being pushed around because someone told him there were regular old children being hurt. What's wrong with coming back to the light side and winning your glory from that?

 

Because instead of showing me that Logain is a great leader whose going to bring Asha'man into an age of glory, Sanderson simply tells me that Logain is some great leader whose going to rally the Asha'man.  Sanderson simply gives me no reason to believe that Logain could rally hundreds of channelers to him when he spends nearly the entire book whining and doing nothing while the last battle is going on.  Logain's subplot was great for character development but not great for a subplot that took 10 books to get to.  Its just another example of Jordan (and Sanderson) dragging out subplots that at the end mean nothing. 

[Vambram]

Charred Knight, 

 

I believe that RJ, Sanderson, and Team Jordan wanted us to see that not every resolution of every major plot line for a character HAD to have an epic ending. Personally, I am glad that some of the plot resolutions did not happen as they were expected to happen.

[probe907]

Charred Knight, 

 

I believe that RJ, Sanderson, and Team Jordan wanted us to see that not every resolution of every major plot line for a character HAD to have an epic ending. Personally, I am glad that some of the plot resolutions did not happen as they were expected to happen.

So then maybe they (RJ) could have wrapped up the Shaido/ Andor/ Travelling circus/ Salidar plots in 10-15 pages and switched to the Black Tower/ Fain/ Forsaken plots, which have been present since book 1, and which people actually liked...

Ah, well...

[Vambram]

 

Charred Knight, 

 

I believe that RJ, Sanderson, and Team Jordan wanted us to see that not every resolution of every major plot line for a character HAD to have an epic ending. Personally, I am glad that some of the plot resolutions did not happen as they were expected to happen.

So then maybe they (RJ) could have wrapped up the Shaido/ Andor/ Travelling circus/ Salidar plots in 10-15 pages and switched to the Black Tower/ Fain/ Forsaken plots, which have been present since book 1, and which people actually liked...

Ah, well...

 

LOL, that would mean that the resolution of those 4 plot lines in 10 to 15 pages would have had to been done in a long series of Tweets!!

 

I am glad that is not how it was done. The Shaido and Salidar plot lines were alright, in my book. Not bad, not great, .. but alright.

[Suttree]

So then maybe they (RJ) could have wrapped up the Shaido/ Andor/ Travelling circus/ Salidar plots in 10-15 pages and switched to the Black Tower/ Fain/ Forsaken plots, which have been present since book 1, and which people actually liked...

While what people like is of course subjective, why on earth would you include the BT in being present since book 1?

[EasyBadger]

Because instead of showing me that Logain is a great leader whose going to bring Asha'man into an age of glory, Sanderson simply tells me that Logain is some great leader whose going to rally the Asha'man.  Sanderson simply gives me no reason to believe that Logain could rally hundreds of channelers to him when he spends nearly the entire book whining and doing nothing while the last battle is going on.  Logain's subplot was great for character development but not great for a subplot that took 10 books to get to.  Its just another example of Jordan (and Sanderson) dragging out subplots that at the end mean nothing. 

 

Really? I thought Logain's subplot was well played out. 

 

In any case, Logain's ability to lead the Black Tower to future glory has already been amply demonstrated.

 

He has the leadership skills: he raised an army and fought a major (successful) war in Ghealdan before being caught and stilled.

 

He has the charisma: re-read his entrance to Caemlyn in TEotW, the man has style, even when shielded

 

He is politically astute: he can weave his way in and out of Aes Sedai plots given the chance (see Salidar), he manages to escape from Taim and work with Bashere, and negotiate with Sea Folk

 

He has the willpower: staying alive, although gentled - REDACTED [demonstration of willpower]

 

He can lead Ashaman: he's been a senior member of the BT for ages, plus REDACTED

 

Other Ashaman look to him as a leader: ditto

 

So, as well as being an obvious high-profile, high-strength Ashaman with near impeccable loyalty to the Dragon and to the light, he already has the proven ability to lead the Black Tower. As for his moping, etc., he's been through a lot in the last 2 years, that's going to leave a mark on the psyche. The only thing he lacks is an on-screen demonstration that he'll be a 'good' leader - to give us confidence that he'll lead in the right way. 

 

By REDACTED, he showed that he was able to spurn absolute power in order to do the Right Thing . He also learned that by doing this, he could get the respect he craves.

 

Honestly, what more could Brandon add at this point?

 

Dear Mods: My first post! I've read the rules, but if I've broken etiquette, please let me know. I note, after posting, that this is not a full-spoiler thread, so I've redacted specific details re AMoL (it's no more of a spoiler than preceding posts, now). In hindsight, should this discussion be moved to the Logain thread in any case?

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

I think my only issue with Androl was, whether this is true or not, came at the expense of Logain's arc. His story seemed patchy. A paragraph or two showing his capture and his internal monologue when fighting Turning would have been good.

[Lutrogale]

Personally, I had a love/hate relationship with Androl character. I really liked the idea of the foil he played to White Tower's stance on turning away women who are too weak. He wasn't strong in the power, but he did have a rather handy talent, one that he could exploit to huge advantages. It was interesting to think about how many others similar to Androl had been turned away, denied the chance to find something that the excel at.

 

His interaction with Pevara was interesting too. I liked the idea of a double bond, though it seemed a bit odd that it would provide telepathic-like communication. I think this style of communication was overused to the point that it became pathetic, but until then it entertaining.

 

Androl was given too much to do though, he had too important of a role for my liking. It's been said before that he stole the spotlight a few times, and though I don't mind a character that out shines the others in particular instances, the fact that he, and not Logain, turned out to be the champion of the Black Tower annoyed me to no end.

 

I think had Androl been given a smaller part to play, a less important one, and some of his duties shifted to Logain, not only would his character have been better, but the book would have as well. We could have seen Logain beaten down, then rising up to be the hero Min saw he would become, but instead his rise to glory was a simple paragraph near the end of the book.

 

Most annoying about Androl, though, were his past lives. I thought he was much more of an interesting character when he was just a leatherworker, but adding experience after experience on top of him made him seem like a really bad fanfic character. He was a Swiss army knife, with every new tool you open being the exact one you need for that particular job.

 

I liked the idea of him rallying the resistance to Taim, I liked the idea that he could smash his way passed the barrier of the dreamspike, and I liked the idea of him using a gateway to a stedding to capture some of the Turned Asha'man. I think had his role in the story been limited to that, he would have turned out a better character. Maybe add in the lava gateway, I loved that

 

For the love of all that is good in this world, though, can we all agree to remove that epic facepalm scene where he cuts tea leaves and opens a gateway inside a jar of honey? I groaned so loud at that ridiculousness. Okay, Sanderson, I get it, now he's thinking with portals.

 

I was honestly waiting for him to suck Trollocs through a gateway on the moon.

[Charred Knight]

Personally, I had a love/hate relationship with Androl character. I really liked the idea of the foil he played to White Tower's stance on turning away women who are too weak. He wasn't strong in the power, but he did have a rather handy talent, one that he could exploit to huge advantages. It was interesting to think about how many others similar to Androl had been turned away, denied the chance to find something that the excel at.

 

His interaction with Pevara was interesting too. I liked the idea of a double bond, though it seemed a bit odd that it would provide telepathic-like communication. I think this style of communication was overused to the point that it became pathetic, but until then it entertaining.

 

Androl was given too much to do though, he had too important of a role for my liking. It's been said before that he stole the spotlight a few times, and though I don't mind a character that out shines the others in particular instances, the fact that he, and not Logain, turned out to be the champion of the Black Tower annoyed me to no end.

 

I think had Androl been given a smaller part to play, a less important one, and some of his duties shifted to Logain, not only would his character have been better, but the book would have as well. We could have seen Logain beaten down, then rising up to be the hero Min saw he would become, but instead his rise to glory was a simple paragraph near the end of the book.

 

Most annoying about Androl, though, were his past lives. I thought he was much more of an interesting character when he was just a leatherworker, but adding experience after experience on top of him made him seem like a really bad fanfic character. He was a Swiss army knife, with every new tool you open being the exact one you need for that particular job.

 

I liked the idea of him rallying the resistance to Taim, I liked the idea that he could smash his way passed the barrier of the dreamspike, and I liked the idea of him using a gateway to a stedding to capture some of the Turned Asha'man. I think had his role in the story been limited to that, he would have turned out a better character. Maybe add in the lava gateway, I loved that

 

For the love of all that is good in this world, though, can we all agree to remove that epic facepalm scene where he cuts tea leaves and opens a gateway inside a jar of honey? I groaned so loud at that ridiculousness. Okay, Sanderson, I get it, now he's thinking with portals.

 

I was honestly waiting for him to suck Trollocs through a gateway on the moon.

Thats basically it, Androl would be great if he had a unique ability to make large gateways, natural leadership abilities despite being just a leather worker, and it shows clearly the problem with the Aes Sedai valuing power above all else.  Instead we got a copy of Jain Farstrider who could take on forsaken, takes the Black Tower by himself (scaring off two forsaken at the same time), does all the work of Logain's group during the Last Battle, and just comes off as the hero from some other series.

 

Have Androl rally a bunch of Asha'man from Logain's faction, get a bunch of Aes Sedai from Toveine's group and Prevara's group to help and sneak attack Taim when one of the Asha'man finds out were Logain was being held, and have the attack come in a Logain POV when Taim is attempting to Turn him then when the attack happens Logain is able to bluff his way to getting Taim to run away.

 

This accomplishes several things

1.  It shows the future of how bonding Asha'man and Aes Sedai will smooth a lot of their problems

2.  It shows the Red Ajah being able to work with Asha'man for the benefit of the world (in the actual series this is reduced to Prevara).  This will also help the Red Ajah come off as more likable and relatable.

3.  The other Asha'man actually accomplish something

4.  More than 2 Aes Sedai out of about 56 are confirmed to survive.

5.  It becomes more realistic that two forsaken would flee from 50+ channelers performing a sneak attack than just one Asha'man whose drastically outnumbered.

6.  It shows Logain's determination and the effects of an attempted Turning has on a person.

[Asha'man Steve]

I thought he was a cool character, until he started talking about how he has done this and that in the past, and then started doing all kinds of crazy stuff with the Power. Going by his stories, he was essentially a new Jain Farstrider who could channel.

 

It would have been much better if he was just a weak channeler who was a good leader, a symbol so to speak to the Whitetower about how strength shouldnt determine leadership and respect. Him at the Blacktower was fine, and trying to help others escape, etc etc.

 

Narishma should have been the one doing all kinds of crazy stuff once the battle started. Why introduce another channeler and leave one who had been foreshadowed to be at least partially important be the exact opposite?

I could be wrong, but androl mentions Jain near the end of AMOL, and remember when noal was talking about his "cousin" who ran off for adventure and left behind a wife? well obviously he was talking about himself there but what if that cousin was in fact androl?? he knows alot of all the different cultures and places of the world so it would make sense.

[Asha'man Steve]

 

 

 

 

I liked him. Yeah, I definitely got the impression that Androl was "Brandon's" character, but I found that he was my favorite Asha'man, behind Logain. Of course, not many of the Asha'man were developed, so Brandon got to really seize upon this opportunity. I'm glad he did, since the Black Tower was lacking in presence in the story up to that point.

 

 

 

You mean Brandrol the Incredible Marty Stu? That guy can die in a fire

I really feel like people don't understand the literary meaning of "Mary Sue". Sometime his Talent did prove more useful than it probably should have, but he's no more a Sue than some other characters.

 

Oh for the love of-

*Can you seriously not see why that is not an indictment?*

Yea, I never realized that Brandrol is but one of many Sues. I know bloody well what a Sue is. This character cemented the transition from Sanderson assisting Jordan to Sanderson writing what is virtually the definition of fan fiction

 

 

There is a huge difference between a full blown Mary Sue character and a character that has a schtick and an arguably larger presence than he should have.  Too many people use the term as a placeholder for "character that annoys me". 

 

I don't exactly love Androl, but to be frank, he only highlights how little development all of the other Asha'man have received.  Even the somewhat more established ones, such as Flinn, come off as strawmen.  I'm much happier that the Black Tower events in AMOl, which were going to happen anyway, were performed by a character with some semblance of personality. 

 

And frankly, I don't see how exploiting a Talent, a Talent that involves a pre-established part of WOT lore, in any way stretches credibility. 

 

Oh come the hell on. His schtick was responsible for like five different huges victories, got him out of impossible situations, and as others mentioned, he's got more travel stories than Farstrider.

Hes more than likely related to farstrider

[balefireruinssteaks]

Moghedien said that in the Age of Legends, stars were actually other places altogether, and that one could Travel to them (probably using Portal Stones).  It seems to me that the imaginative use of gateways in AMOL isn't far-fetched, it only lacks practicality of a sort.  I mean, gateways were used primarily for transportation in the Age of Legends.  When the Dark One tainted saidin and people started going crazy and the War of Power broke out...lots of different things emerged which were probably horrifying to the original uses of those weaves.  Gateways begot Deathgates.  Healing begot ways to stop a person's heart or kill them, etc. 

 

Egwene pondered that Skimming was somehow connected to Tel'aran'rhiod and I think that gateways depend a great deal on a person's imagination and ability to see things visually in their mind, just like in the World of Dreams.  For the channeler, the weave is important but their strength in the Power is not - it's more about the actual Talent itself.  Breaking a rock with Earth, for example, requires no Talent so Andrhol was very weak and hardly able to chip away part of the rock at all.  Making a gateway has to do with Talent and so he was much more proficient.  For someone who may have been a Farstrider cousin...traveling and seeing the world probably gave him a very vivid imagination, thereby fueling his Talent in making gateways when he should not have been able to.

 

Think of it as playing the piano.  Anyone can be trained how to play the piano.  One person has a weak musical talent, but is shown how to move their fingers across the keyboard and understand how written music works so they can sit down and play a piece by Mozart.  It's technically correct and played well.  Another person has a very strong Talent for playing the piano.  When they sit down to play the same piece of music, there is something different about it - it's alive, there is emotion in every note...it's efficient and well played, sure, but it's also much more captivating because of the strength of that Talent.

 

I think that example works right...hmmmmm.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Well im doing a slower reread now... I dont know if the fact i know the ending is affecting me, in fact knowing the end might affect me for good now and the yearly 'series rereads' may stop. But despite his story being well done, i am finding again that he takes too much of the story so far for a new character...

 

I agree. I didn't mind the character but he took up far too much of the story. I liked a lot of the gateway uses.

 

Aside from monopolizing a bit too much of the story, I felt that he eclipsed Logain a bit and he did have too many experiences for my taste. I liked the varied past at first and then it became too much. 

[Hagazussa]

I am not completely sure how to feel about Androl, on one side I do like his character, he is fun to read about and charming and he grabs my attention in the scenes he is in. I also like how he uses portals and while he is a rater stereotypical one trick wonder mage which there is allot of in fantasy fiction, the mage who is bad at everything in magick except things which they excel at and that trick is then off course in the end used to save the day, this character is very common but they make for good underdog stories and I like those. I also like that Androl get creative with what he got, in fact he reminds me of a player character in a table top RPG who generally know how to think outside the box and do amazing things with whatever they got. I also love the interactions between Androl and Pevara they are delightful and it is also moving that a few years earlier if she had met him then she would have hunted him down and put him through a fate worse than death but now they become friends and there is even a hint of romance, that is charming. I find nothing wrong with Androl as a character, I think he is well written, well developed and interesting.

 

Now on the downside the story of Wheel of Time is not supposed to be about Androl, in many ways I feel about him like I feel about the last season addition who do everything character you often find in TV series. In a way he becomes like Vala in Stargate SG1 (well we have a few other characters that do just the same in that show but there is no need to list all of them.) Vala is a great character in an of herself but she do steal the thunder from the established characters who have been with the show since season 1, and you have the same in X-Files and a myriad of other shows, great characters who show up late and which makes me feel...ok good characters but this story is not about them. Now in a TV series there is good excuses for doing this, sometimes actors quit and replacement characters have to be made, but in a book series this seams unnecessary.

 

Now I do understand Sanderson wanting a character that is his, I do understand him wanting to put his mark on the books and not just be a nameless writer bot to complete someone else work, but I do think he have used Androl a bit to much. Here is the case I wanted to read how the story ends for Rand and Egwene and all the other character who have been with the series since book 1. I mean I started reading about these characters when I was 16 years old, I am going to be 31 next month I have known these characters nearly half my life and I wanted to see how everything turned out for them, and while I do like Androl he takes away time that could have been used to focus on the more established characters.

 

I am not getting into the Sanderson writing other Wheel of Time novels debates, Team Jordan have said no and that is it, but I can not help but feel that Androl would have been better as the main hero of a side story placed in a outrigger novel than as short of shoe horned into the main story. I love stories of mages who is weaker than all the other magi around them and who then have to rely on their wits and some unique talent to make it rather than brute strength, however for the last book of the Wheel of Time I wanted to read about the characters who have been with the series from book 1 and not Sanderson's pet mage which Androl is even if that is not putting it very nicely.

 

Now as for portals and strength as someone mentioned. Usually making a gateway requires allot of strength but it is already established that someone with a Talent need allot less pure strength in the Power to do something. Like that woman who had a shielding talent who while relatively weak could shield Nyn as if it was nothing. I do not think it have much to do with Androl having allot of imagination but more to do with plain and simple an inborn talent that he has.