Discuss the Shadow (Full Spoilers)

[woomia]

I'd like to know what happens to Darkfriends after The Last Battle. Are they still around? Or do they lose hope and give up?

[wRAR]

There were also DFs that wanted to stop but couldn't. We don't know how they were prevented to going back so maybe they are able to do that now.

[Leflair]

There will probably be remnants left around for some time, if for nothing else than the more hardcore DFs aren't likely to grow less selfish, and for most of the time they survived without the backing of the Dark One or the Forsaken.

 

Plenty of perks that motivate their sort of organisation, which haven't gone away just because the last battle is over.

[nolirion]

 

. So I thought the Creator and DO worked the same way - two opposite

forces, existing outside the pattern, like a positive and negative.

Together, they create the electricity that weaves the pattern.

 

 

If I may comment , the "electricity" that weaves the pattern is Saidin and Saidar , nothing else . The Do and the Creator are the conscious manifestation of forces that represent either evil or goodness but they do not drive in any way  the pattern , they are  part of it , not as conscious being but as the raw elementary force ,chaos , corruption and destruction for the Do and Order , virtue , creation and preservation for The Creator .

 

Even when the DO is sealed away, he can influence the pattern somewhat

because he is half the force that weaves it. Problem is, because he is

the DO, he wants to destroy the pattern, so that's why we can't let him

loose

I don't think the Do can touch or influence the world without bore , it is simply that  the force he embodies are part of the wheel . You are right though,  Rand seal the Do because when he is not sealed is nature compel him to seek the destruction or corruption of the Wheel . As immensely powerful as it his he can't choose, he can't escape his nature  , the Do as no free will , in a way he is inferior to the simplest human being .

 

This all made sense to me, but I guess I was wrong? Turns out, Rand could kill the DO, and we get some mushy explanation that the DO has to

exist people need a choice to stay human. Mmkay. I think my theory was alot better.

The way I understand it , Rand could have killed the Do , using it's own essence to destroy him , that would have eliminated the darkness in the pattern , not the result of the Do touch but all that we consider as bad in existence , taking  away the possibility of evil from humanity , from the pattern itself ,  basically was the same thing as what the Do wanted to do , instead of creating a nightmare Rand would have created a Paradise , filled with puppet .

It is not that Humanity , and other lifeforms , need the Do they need free-will , they need the possibility of both good and evil to not only perceive creation but live in it the  best way .

 

Did you not learn that trees grow roots most strongly when winds blow through them?"

Edit : I might have been a bit sybillin there

[newimperium]

The DO is the antithesis of the Creator - but he is not as powerful as the Creator.  I don't know if the Creator made the DO, but the fact that he "sealed him away at the moment of creation" means that the Creator is more powerful than the DO, to me. So they are not equal; we don't have Dualism in the strictest sense. 

 

The catch is, of course, that the Creator has vowed not to interfere (otherwise we have no story). In this Deistic kind of world the Creator has champions of the Light to fight the DO for him and make sure that he stays sealed away.

 

The thing I don't understand is how Rand steps outside the Pattern when he touches the DO.  And why does the simple act of stepping outside the Pattern give him such incredible, "Pattern-altering" abilities? By the same token, it seems that when Rand pulls the DO into the Pattern he becomes finite and mortal, in fact, "less than a mite", which Rand could crush in his fist.

 

The the confusing lines about the DO "never having been the real enemy".  It's almost as though, if the DO is evil itself, then the existence of evil itself wasn't the problem (in fact, almost unimportant), but the choices of men are the actual catalyst and the theme of the entire series.

 

In short, I don't think anyone (even RJ) could come up with a flawless, perfectly logical world system, and I think we've uncovered some of the inconsistencies. He still did a pretty darn good job, though.

 

Let me leave you with a thought:  If Padan Fain had succeeded in his plan (whatever that was), do you think that if he was able to enter the Pit of Doom and step outside the Pattern, would he have become a new "Dark One"?   Because when Rand was pulling him out of the Pattern I thought for a minute that we were going to discover the DO was some kind of interchangeable being that cyclically gets placed into that role. Wouldn't have fit into the lore of the series though, of course.

[Suttree]

RJ on the DO's nature:

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

MARTIN REZNICK

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

ROBERT JORDAN

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

[Vaikaris]

"Bao, the Wyld" who is identified by killing without weaves and carries a [removed]awesome Sa'angreal that binds to himself. Pure gold.

 

I mean, say it. Bao, the Wyld. It just sounds so awesome.

 

Ishamael was just.....I don't know whether the killing of all the mystery in WoT was the worst part or how terrible Ishamael was is. You all complain how Fain let us all down, but what about Ishamael?

He is built as the best character of the series, he starts out crazy and evil and then it turns out he had been fighting the fight alone, basically keeping up the darkness for centuries. Then it turns out he was just crazy and accepted that the DO would end everything. In the end, it turns out that the DO was just a conduit of power and Ishamael and Lanfear had been those who, with their free will, had carried the conflict. While it also turns out that Ishamael had been promised a lie, that the DO could bring him oblivion.

 

So much potential, such a great character, so amazingly well written throughout the series. 

 

And what did it amount to?
 

He has a swordfight with Rand, tries a dirty little trick to kill him, gets trapped like an idiot and Rand takes his body. 

 

No mentions of his philosophy, no revealing mysteries, nothing. Nothing of what made him so great and possibly the most interesting aspect of the whole story.

[Suttree]

I mean, say it. Bao, the Wyld. It just sounds so awesome.

Well I get the nod to Beowulf but the name isn't all that awesome. Comes off across like a "pulp fantasy" name IMO. Then again we know RJ came up with Hessalam(aka the Graeffalump) so...shrug.

[Agitel]

 

I mean, say it. Bao, the Wyld. It just sounds so awesome.

Well I get the nod to Beowulf but the name isn't all that awesome. Comes off across like a "pulp fantasy" name IMO. Then again we know RJ came up with Hessalam(aka the Graeffalump) so...shrug.

 

Okay, there are names that have stood out to me in the series as very bad names. There were those by Brandon, they just didn't fit The Wheel of Time. In EotW there were a few as well (I'm rereading it now, and there's a 'Mutch' or someone at the Stag and Lion). These are bad fantasy names that stand out. I DO notice them. Hessalam wasn't one that stood out to me. I'm sure many will disagree, but I suspect if Jordan had finished the series some people wouldn't have latched onto that name like they did and come up with all the parodies.

[wRAR]

Some of Brandon's names are real people :)

[Mats Spare Hat]

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?
_____

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.
 

[Suttree]

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?

_____

 

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.

That seriously pisses me off.

 

Please tell me Knotai is not on that 13th Depository list.

[Entreri]

Grandael seemed to be a truly exceptional channeler, able to repel attacks with the best of them.

 

Even though she was in a circle, she still had to fight against many, took on Amys, Aviendha, Talaan, Alivia and Cadsuane simultaneously at one time and was winning until Avienhda's desparate move.  I can see why she was ready to go one-on-one against Lanfear in FoH and possibly win.  I always figured she was the most dangerous Forsaken in the long run, given what Rand said about her. 

[Agitel]

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

 

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?

_____

 

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.

 

 

Two birds with one stone, bro.

[SylvanFox]

"Bao, the Wyld" who is identified by killing without weaves and carries a [removed]awesome Sa'angreal that binds to himself. Pure gold.

 

I mean, say it. Bao, the Wyld. It just sounds so awesome.

 

Ishamael was just.....I don't know whether the killing of all the mystery in WoT was the worst part or how terrible Ishamael was is. You all complain how Fain let us all down, but what about Ishamael?

 

He is built as the best character of the series, he starts out crazy and evil and then it turns out he had been fighting the fight alone, basically keeping up the darkness for centuries. Then it turns out he was just crazy and accepted that the DO would end everything. In the end, it turns out that the DO was just a conduit of power and Ishamael and Lanfear had been those who, with their free will, had carried the conflict. While it also turns out that Ishamael had been promised a lie, that the DO could bring him oblivion.

 

So much potential, such a great character, so amazingly well written throughout the series. 

 

And what did it amount to?

 

He has a swordfight with Rand, tries a dirty little trick to kill him, gets trapped like an idiot and Rand takes his body. 

 

No mentions of his philosophy, no revealing mysteries, nothing. Nothing of what made him so great and possibly the most interesting aspect of the whole story.

 

I totally agree. I was really looking forward to seeing what he was up to, and I thought it would be a lot more exciting than that. That was one of the number one things I wanted to see. Also, when Rand was frozen and fighting the DO, what the hell happened to Moridin? He was frozen, too, but Rand was doing stuff. Why wasn't he doing stuff? I was kind of hoping Perrin would see him doing stuff in T'A'R or something, at least. Or was Moridin acting as some kind of vessel for the DO? There were some hints of that in previous books.

 

-

 

As for why Rand going over to the DO previously had resulted in a draw, I'm guessing that's because it wasn't the right time for him to do so and bring the DO a victory. The same showdown scenario didn't play out, and instead it just kind of became a stalemate. Or maybe he turned and somebody like Moiraine killed him before he could give the world to the DO. There are a number of reasons that might not give the Shadow instant victory. If Rand had gone over this time, he probably would have thought the same thing that Elan did, that it's best to just die and get it over with. When he went to the DO, at the point that the DO offered to just destroy everything and even light Rand was tempted, and he said something like "This is what you offered to Elan?" Dark Rand totally would have went along with that. Dark Rand was a lot like Moridin. He just wanted to die.

[Durinax]

I was very disappointed by the lack of DF betrayals, like there where almost none. The only one I could think of was the retreat sounding too early for Ituralde

[wcbrooks]

Through out the AMOL I was waiting for DFs to appear to aid the Shadow - Aravrine betraying Faile was good, Mellar popping up was another good appearance....but what about others that were high up Alviarin (she might have popped up but not memorable - ok I forgot if she did haha).  what about Old Tally?? who was suppose to be high up in the ranks - maybe he was caught with the Seanchan clearing them out etc etc..I can not think of any more at this time

 

But I expected an army of DFs to appear along side the Dark or indivduals to rise up with the Lights Ranks   

[Mr. Micawber]

One of the little things that got onto my nerves in AMoL was, indeed, the Shadow's seeming incompetence.  I mean, I just felt the author's hand way too much at times, dragging things for the sake of drama.  The Shadow made so MANY mistakes.  

 

Why did Demandred duel Gawyn, Galad and Lan when he could have fried them with fire?

 

Why did Demandred stop using the full circle?  He could have probably destroyed the entire Light army like that, not to mention take LTT easily in combat.

 

Why didn't Graendal just balefire all the great commanders instead of taking the extra effort to use Compulsion on them?

 

Why didn't the bad guys use Deathgates against the good guys, or copy Androl's lava gun, or any number of other tactics they could have used?

 

Why did Moridin try to fight against Rand with A SWORD or all things?

 

Why did Moghedien take the trouble to use Compulsion in the Seanchan court when she could have just KILLED them all?

 

 There are many more but I just can't think of them all right now...  It just seems like the bad guys were either too incompetent, or simply designed to lose.

I wanted to respond to this. My issue with this whole book largely stems from my final inability to suspend belief

 

I could have handled amateurish writing and terrible editing and so on

 

But the plotting was even worse than ADWD and after what seems to be the millionth time, you know the light's getting out by being lucky because of mass idiot ball holding

 

In Rand et Al's previous Big Climaxes, there was some something different at work: Rand trapping Asmodean, Nynaeve getting Moghiedien, hell, even Mat's triumph over the Finns

 

It wasn't at all dumb luck. Victory resulted from more than luck, from our usually young heroes learning a la Joshua the Computer. Once you lose the sense that the Shadow is competent, it just kills the internal reality of the story. The Shadow was a nothing burger

[Linda]

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

 

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?

_____

 

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.

 

 

 

Actually, Bao the Wyld was both: a reference to Beowulf, and Demandred being an analogue of Beowulf the dragon slayer, but using the spelling of a fan name. This was consciously done by Sanderson.

 

Jordan did multi-layered names too (though he did not reference a fan as one of the layers in a name.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

 

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?

_____

 

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.

 

 

 

Actually, Bao the Wyld was both: a reference to Beowulf, and Demandred being an analogue of Beowulf the dragon slayer, but using the spelling of a fan name. This was consciously done by Sanderson.

 

Jordan did multi-layered names too (though he did not reference a fan as one of the layers in a name.)

 

Thanks for that clarification. 

 

Two birds with one stone indeed. 

 

It makes the whole thing much easier to swallow. I thought it seemed strange that such an important name plot-wise would simply be a fan name. Makes much more sense this way.  

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Bao the Wyld was direct from the name of a fan: Bao Pham.

 

Nothing so deep as to purport some sort of parallel to Beowulf, in form or intent, but being a product of Sanderson, is that really surprising?

_____

 

13th Depository has an updated list, as of this past Thursday, of all names derived from fans/donors/contest winners.

 

 

Actually, Bao the Wyld was both: a reference to Beowulf, and Demandred being an analogue of Beowulf the dragon slayer, but using the spelling of a fan name. This was consciously done by Sanderson.

 

Jordan did multi-layered names too (though he did not reference a fan as one of the layers in a name.)

Thanks for that clarification.

 

Two birds with one stone indeed.

 

It makes the whole thing much easier to swallow. I thought it seemed strange that such an important name plot-wise would simply be a fan name. Makes much more sense this way.

Indeed. Thanks Linda!

[Mats Spare Hat]

Color me surprised.

Though, Linda, can we get a source/quote or some sort of on the record exposition on that info? I only ask because the depository list doesn't expound on the revelation beyond:

"Bao the Wyld, Demandred alias in A Memory of Light, The Wyld: Bao Pham"

 

[Julian Cook]

So the shadow never was Rand's enemy, That seems kind of Woolheaded, yes I get that the shadow can't win unless they submit to the shadow, but still in what sense is the dark one not the enemy,  The shadow was behind all the plans so in a very real sense he was the enemy in every way.

[mbuehner]

So the shadow never was Rand's enemy, That seems kind of Woolheaded, yes I get that the shadow can't win unless they submit to the shadow, but still in what sense is the dark one not the enemy,  The shadow was behind all the plans so in a very real sense he was the enemy in every way.

 

Err... what?

[Linda]

That long list wasn't the place to discuss what else Demandred's alias referred to. But it is discussed in my Demandred essay, which talks about Demandreds parallels and themes. http://13depository.blogspot.com.au/2002/03/demandred.html