Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Guest ginall]

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

 

[Yamezt]

She was picked to be Amyrlin to be a puppet in Salidar. The route was in a way handed to her.

 

But she did work to becoming an Amyrlin of a whole WT.

 

You can't really complain she invented a weave (and yes, this causes a lot of controversy) that counters Balefire - which as far as we know AoL AS do not know.

 

With regards to the Seanchan, while I abhor that whole Damane business, it is certain that a lot of the Seanchan damane were brainwashed to view themselves as a danger. I do think RJ is also trying to make a point about "We will force you to be free" and we can see examples in our real world. I like how Elayne and the kin had a hard time rehabilitating them because that would be true (Yes, Alivia took freedom well, and she seemed to be the only one). After tGS I had hoped to see if Egwene was able to rehabilitated the damane she captured, or how she would have faced Bethamin and Seta (who was the 2nd most after Renna to wear her leash). Alas, we did not see that. 

 

The challenge of whose way of life is better that Egwene had with Tuon, without resorting to violence (due to the dragon's peace) was the best result.

Edited April 5, 2013 by James Tham

[Suttree]

She was picked to be Amyrlin to be a puppet in Salidar. The route was in a way handed to her.

Uhmm what?

[shortkut]

 

 

She was picked to be Amyrlin to be a puppet in Salidar. The route was in a way handed to her.

Uhmm what?

I think he means that the opportunity to be amyrlin was handed to her but not what she did as amyrlin.

[Yamezt]

Oops yes that is what I meant. Sorry about that.

[Elan Tedronai]

 

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

 

If RJ intended Cads to become Amyrlin,he intended Egwene to die.Doubt tht u can blame Sanderson for it. However the manner of death was real cheesy,tht I think was pure Sanderson.

 

 

If rj intended egwene to die then sanderson wouldnt be so vague about her death, He is not answering the question. who killed egwene? him or rj?

[Rhienne]

 

 

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

 

If RJ intended Cads to become Amyrlin,he intended Egwene to die.Doubt tht u can blame Sanderson for it. However the manner of death was real cheesy,tht I think was pure Sanderson.

 

 

If rj intended egwene to die then sanderson wouldnt be so vague about her death, He is not answering the question. who killed egwene? him or rj?

Perrin and Nynaeve talk about Egwene's death in Perrin's POV in the epilogue which was written by RJ, I think.

[avernite]

 

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

 

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well. 

Per RJ Rand's soul is a HotH.

 

Well yes, but that doesn't mean he can channel while stuck in T'a'R or summoned by the horn. All the things the heroes do while summoned are pretty fancy anyhow, so it's not like he would need it. Then again, we know fairly little about the Horn and all, maybe it only ever gets used while Rand is in the world, so the precepts keep his channeling from being any sort of issue.

[Kahsm]

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Bravo.

 

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Kael Pyralis

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

 

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well.

Per RJ Rand's soul is a HotH.

Well yes, but that doesn't mean he can channel while stuck in T'a'R or summoned by the horn. All the things the heroes do while summoned are pretty fancy anyhow, so it's not like he would need it. Then again, we know fairly little about the Horn and all, maybe it only ever gets used while Rand is in the world, so the precepts keep his channeling from being any sort of issue.

Well yeah, we have just been told that channelers can be tied to the Horn. We know there are some lifetimes where they can't channel. Regardless it is a soul trait and I would be shocked if something tied that strongly to a heroes soul would be restricted in anyway. There certainly is nothing indicating that is the case. Edited April 7, 2013 by Suttree

[Apple Scruff]

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

[Suttree]

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

 

 

 

Interview: Feb 20th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - JaimieKrycho (Paraphrased)

Question

Regarding burning out, is it Healable?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in the same way that stilling is Healed. All it says in the notes is what I just said. And that Nynaeve would not be able to Heal Setalle. Being reborn would heal burning out, but transmigration would not. That's why even though Lanfear shifted bodies, she was still reduced.

 

[MasterAblar]

 

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

 

 

 

Interview: Feb 20th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - JaimieKrycho (Paraphrased)

 

Question

 

Regarding burning out, is it Healable?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

Not in the same way that stilling is Healed. All it says in the notes is what I just said. And that Nynaeve would not be able to Heal Setalle. Being reborn would heal burning out, but transmigration would not. That's why even though Lanfear shifted bodies, she was still reduced.

 

 

I suppose souls can heal themselves, just like the pattern. Do we know what happens to souls that have been turned? Are they like trolloc souls in that they're ruined?

[Suttree]

 

 

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

 

 

 

Interview: Feb 20th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - JaimieKrycho (Paraphrased)

 

Question

 

Regarding burning out, is it Healable?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

Not in the same way that stilling is Healed. All it says in the notes is what I just said. And that Nynaeve would not be able to Heal Setalle. Being reborn would heal burning out, but transmigration would not. That's why even though Lanfear shifted bodies, she was still red

uced.

I suppose souls can heal themselves, just like the pattern. Do we know what happens to souls that have been turned? Are they like trolloc souls in that they're ruined?

 

 Don't believe we have an answer for that. I don't feel it is ruined as RJ hinted that with some aid they could come back to the light.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

 

 

 

Interview: Feb 20th, 2013AMOL Signing Report - JaimieKrycho (Paraphrased)

Question

Regarding burning out, is it Healable?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in the same way that stilling is Healed. All it says in the notes is what I just said. And that Nynaeve would not be able to Heal Setalle. Being reborn would heal burning out, but transmigration would not. That's why even though Lanfear shifted bodies, she was still reduced.

I suppose souls can heal themselves, just like the pattern. Do we know what happens to souls that have been turned? Are they like trolloc souls in that they're ruined?

 

 Don't believe we have an answer for that. I don't feel it is ruined as RJ hinted that with some aid they could come back to the light.

Right, I don't believe it's impossible to heal, just wondering if it's carried over to the next life. I doubt it but it would really suck of it is.

[Apple Scruff]

Thanks for the response. Good news for Egwene.

[fionwe1987]

Question: If the ability to channel is soul tied, then presumably if you are burnt out, you would never be reborn with the ability to channel? If so, Egwene will never have the ability to channel again in any incarnation.

The point is moot anyway. Egwene did not burn out. She died before that could happen, same as LTT.

[muddasssir]

 

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Bravo.

 

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

 

 

 

 

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Bravo.

 

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

 

yes we have been contesting this point back and forth for years, but here are couple of things that you chose to ignore in your excessive love for poor old underrated, misunderstood and ill treated eggy dearest. You cannot compare her to Rand he is dying for people who want him to die and are not ready to acknowledge that he exists. There is a legend that one of the users use here which says something about how ashamen chose a life of horror and painful death that will get them no thanks. Rand is the first Ashaman and he is making the greatest sacrifice of them all. Your behaviour is typical of a Randlander. You want to castigate him for something that is not his fault. Another thing that you again conveniently chose to ignore are all the wonderful female characters that enriched the story and were the favourites of everyone. Women like Nynaeve, Moiraine, Siuan and she may not be universally liked, but cads is another fabulous female character and I have not even started on Other nationalities and culture groups like Aiel. So When you go around blaming all of us of bigotry and ride your high moral horse. Please do keep in mind that we are not all dimwits and nincompoops like Our exalted eggy the fabulous one. 

[Aulduron]

I thought it was men who were second class. Andor only has a queen. The Womens Circle and Wise Ones always trump the Village Council and Chiefs. , Only women are allowed to channel. Those women chose Rand, he didn't choose them. Women bullied their way all the way through those books. 

[Suttree]

I thought it was men who were second class. Andor only has a queen. The Womens Circle and Wise Ones always trump the Village Council and Chiefs.

Care to break down the other lands? It's actually pretty even.

 

Only women are allowed to channel.

For good reason. It is quite plausible that there would be somewhat of a stigma given a man can go insane and tear the world apart.

[Rhienne]

Lands/organisations with women in the most powerful positions: 5

Andor - Queen

Aes Sedai - Amyrlin

The Kin - the Eldest

Atha'an Miere - Mistress of the Ships

Aiel - Wise Ones, although the Car'a'Carn possibly

 

Lands/organisations with men in the most powerful positions: 6

The Children of the Light - Lord Captain Commander

Asha'man - M'Hael

Malkier - Breyan plots to have her son put on the throne - is this because Malkier cannot be ruled by a Queen?  Or whoever the Kings' Queen is equal to them?

Tuatha'an - think we have only seen male Mahdi?

Illian - King and Council of Nine

Amadicia - King

Arad Doman - King, but elected by the Council of Merchants which is mostly women

 

Lands/organisations with both men and women in the most powerful positions: 17

Seanchan - Empress or Emperor

Towns - Mayor or Mayoress

Villages - Village Council and Women's Circle

Saldaea - King or Queen

Kandor - King or Queen

Arafel - King or Queen

Shienar - King or Queen

Ogier - the Eldest (male of female)

Cairhien - King or Queen

Mayene - First of Mayene (male or female)

Tear - High Lords and Ladies

Altara - King or Queen

Murandy - King or Queen

Ghealdan - King or Queen

Tarabon - King and Panarch

Illuminators - Master or Mistress of the House

Shara - Sh'boan or Sh'botay, but really ruled by female Ayyad

 

Definitely more gender equality than not in Randland, although it does feel skewed towards women having more power because we spend a lot of time with Aes Sedai, Andorans, and Aiel.

[Aulduron]

 

 

Care to break down the other lands? It's actually pretty even

 

 

Do any of the other lands have laws saying they can only have kings?

[avernite]

I do think we should count Seaqnchan as pro-women; they haven't had an Emperor in ages even if it's not explicitly impossible.

 

And of course the Aes Sedai are probably the most powerful of all.

[Rhienne]

 

Care to break down the other lands? It's actually pretty even

 

 

Do any of the other lands have laws saying they can only have kings?

 

Amadicia, possibly because of the influence of the Children of the Light, and Illian.  I think Arad Doman can only have a king as well.  Whether the queen in these countries has any power/equivalent power to the king, I'm not sure.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Getting off-topic. Feel free to create a gender equality or what not thread, but this is for Egwene.