Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Suttree]

 

I think it was also siuan or elaida who scoffed at the eyes and ears of the yellow because there weren't any disease that couldn't be healed but the healing the AS do was basic.

Might be misunderstanding what you are trying to say but I do know there is no such quote to that effect.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Suttree

[megalomax]

 

 

 

I think it was also siuan or elaida who scoffed at the eyes and ears of the yellow because there weren't any disease that couldn't be healed but the healing the AS do was basic.

Might be misunderstanding what you are trying to say but I do know there is no such quote to that effect.

there is. I'm trying to remember what book it was. I think it was book 5 when a yellow agent tried to kidnap elayne and nynaeve with fork root or a book before that. The word used to describe the yellow network as "pitiful"

[megalomax]

my phone has an LTT dang the double postings

Edited January 22, 2013 by megalomax

[megalomax]

The Yellow Ajah, like all Ajahs with the exception of the White, has its own network of eyes-and-ears. It is considered to be a rather “pitiful thing,” as Aes Sedai tend to believe that there is nothing that can be learned of Healing from those who do not have the ability to channel (TFoH, Prologue)library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Yellow_Ajah

 

 

I think this is the book.

 

As you can see the mindset of the AS "nothing that can be learned of Healing from those who do not have the ability to channel"

 

Healing could have been one of the easiest ways the people could trust the AS but due to the concept of the AS and their manipulative behavior some people would rather die than be indebted to AS. Egwene hoped to change that with linking the Kinswomen that specialize mostly as healers when they hid from the tower. She also wanted the AS to retire into the kin and continue serving the WT.

Edited January 22, 2013 by megalomax

[Suttree]

The Yellow Ajah, like all Ajahs with the exception of the White, has its own network of eyes-and-ears. It is considered to be a rather “pitiful thing,” as Aes Sedai tend to believe that there is nothing that can be learned of Healing from those who do not have the ability to channel (TFoH, Prologue)library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Yellow_Ajah

 

 

I think this is the book.

 

As you can see the mindset of the AS "nothing that can be learned of Healing from those who do not have the ability to channel"

 

Healing could have been one of the easiest ways the people could trust the AS but due to the concept of the AS and their manipulative behavior some people would rather die than be indebted to AS. Egwene hoped to change that with linking the Kinswomen that specialize mostly as healers when they hid from the tower. She also wanted the AS to retire into the kin and continue serving the WT.

Ahh ok I know what you are referring to now but you don't have the right context and that was throwing me off. First off it is Elaida's rather skewed perspective that obviously can't be taken at face value:

 

tFoH "Prologue"

It was an open secret that every Ajah except the White, devoted to logic and philosophy as it was, had watchers and listeners scattered through the nations to varying degrees, though the Yellow network was believed to be a pitiful thing. There was nothing of sickness or Healing they could learn from those who could not channel. Some individual sisters had their own eyes-and-ears, though perhaps even more closely guarded than agents of the Ajahs. The Blues had had the most extensive, both Ajah and personal.

Second she is comparing it to the other Ajah's(that is what makes it pitiful to her mind) and doesn't even seem to be aware of what we are told elsewhere it's true purpose is. We know they use their network to find out about outbreaks of disease and the like and then send AS to go heal them. We know the Yellows are prejudiced against healers that work with herbs but every single time they see anything new done with the OP they pounce on it and quickly adapt. On top of that anyone can come to the WT for free healing at any time and many people do. There are only a few countries in Randland proper(Tear, Amadacia) where someone would turn down AS healing. It certainly isn't the norm. Now that isn't as good as setting up hospitals across the land obviously but it is a far ways away from what you claim. Edited January 22, 2013 by Suttree

[Stormcrown]

 

 

Keep in mind that Gawyn and Egwene form the only actually tragic series-length arc in the books. Like any good tragedy, hubris gets them in the end; both spend most of the series struggling with the balance between pridefulness and self-sacrifice, and both frequently fail.

 

Of course, Gawyn begins a prince and ends a mere Warder, while Egwene goes from innkeeper's daughter to becoming one of the most powerful individuals in the world. And, in a similar way, Gawyn dies in vain because of his excessive pride, which kills him in the end, while Egwene dies in glory thanks to an act of supreme self-sacrifice. Unlike many of the major relationships depicted, the story of Egwene and Gawyn is deceptively complex, even a little Shakespearian.

 

So, TL;DR: Hating on Gawyn is fun, but remember that he's so hatable because he's actually a pretty clever literary device.

 

 

Taken from the subreddit for WoT (Click here). [Gawyn, AMOL Spoilers within the link)

 

Thought it was an EXTREMELY good point about Egwene and Gawyn's relationship. It gave me a lot of respect for their story, and I feel that everyone would benefit from thinking about them in this way.

 

Spoiler tagged, although the WoT subreddit keeps very strict rules on spoilers as well. Not sure who would discuss Egwene's plot without knowing Gawyn's but I like to be careful.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Stormcrown

[rane008]

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

[EasyBadger]

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

 

Just out of interest, do we know that the lack of a buffer is actually a flaw (rather than just perceived as one)? The lack of a buffer allows a channeller to - effectively - 'sheathe the sword'. If something matters more than life itself, you can deliberately overdraw and get a once-in-a-lifetime 'flameout' power up. 

 

Also, I like the fact that it made Egwene vs Taim into a mirror of Land vs Demandred. Taimandred are fighting for personal gain, while Egwene/Lan just want to stop them, whatever the personal cost. Which was one of the big philosophical comparisons in the conclusion.

Edited January 23, 2013 by EasyBadger

[Vambram]

Good point, EasyBadger. The comparison of "sheathing the sword" is a great one.

I do not know why fans believe it is imperative that a angreal or a sa`angreal have to have a buffer?

[esvath]

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

 

IIRC, Vora was used by Siuan to Heal Mat. So we know about it since... book three? Book four?

[Suttree]

 

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

IIRC, Vora was used by Siuan to Heal Mat. So we know about it since... book three? Book four?

Think rane is referring to the lack of buffer which most certainly felt like a band aid.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

IIRC, Vora was used by Siuan to Heal Mat. So we know about it since... book three? Book four?

Think rane is referring to the lack of buffer which most certainly felt like a band aid.

The worst thing is, several times in this very book, Egwene thinks of "holding as much as she could" through the sa'angreal. Would it have killed Brandon to have her comment that she had to be careful to not overreach, because there was no buffer, as Siuan had just recently warned her?

 

By the way, the sheathing the sword metaphor is a really good catch, and here are some quotes that strengthen the parallel more:

 

Egwene reached to her side, and slipped something long, white and slender from the leather case tied to her belt. A fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal. It felt comfortable in her hand, familiar. Though she had only used this sa’angreal once, she felt as if it had claimed her and she it. During the fight against the Seanchan, this had been her weapon. For the first time, she understood why a soldier might feel a bond with his sword.

 

Interestingly, it seems Egwene had unknowingly bonded the sa'angreal to her just like Demandred had. Just another way Egwene is set up as Demandred's parallel in this book.

 

Next, we have:

At the very center of the explosion, Leane found a column of crystal as wide as an ancient leatherleaf tree, rising some fifty feet in the air. Frozen at its center was a fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal.

 

Vora's wand was literally sheathed in a column of light where Egwene stood, in the end. She more or less impaled herself with  her own sword to defeat the Shadow.

 

And then:

 

Logain stumbled to a halt amid the people. The air stank of burned flesh and dead Trollocs. “The Heights are gone?” he asked.

“Gone,” Androl said reluctantly from beside him. “The earthquakes took them.”

 

The last embrace of the Mother took the only remnants of Egwene...

[Asha’man Hall]

Im not really sad that egwene died, i liked her in the earlier books then after book 5, i didnt like her anymore

[rane008]

I do not know why fans believe it is imperative that a angreal or a sa`angreal have to have a buffer?

Maybe it's Cadsuane's comment in TPoD, Chapter 27 that Callendor lacked the standard safety buffer that other angreal have?

[Agitel]

 

I do not know why fans believe it is imperative that a angreal or a sa`angreal have to have a buffer?

Maybe it's Cadsuane's comment in TPoD, Chapter 27 that Callendor lacked the standard safety buffer that other angreal have?

 

It's not inconceivable that there may be others with a similar... manufacturing flaw (as RJ put it), but it was thrown in there at literally the last minute. 

[rane008]

 

 

I do not know why fans believe it is imperative that a angreal or a sa`angreal have to have a buffer?

Maybe it's Cadsuane's comment in TPoD, Chapter 27 that Callendor lacked the standard safety buffer that other angreal have?

 

It's not inconceivable that there may be others with a similar... manufacturing flaw (as RJ put it), but it was thrown in there at literally the last minute. 

I agree that it's not inconceivable and that is was thrown in at the last minute.  WIth the number of times it's used, you'd think that the lack of buffer issue could have been referenced.  Somewhere. 

[Vambram]

Well, that would be assuming that the Aes Sedai knew everything about Vora's wand.

 

 

It has been demonstrated many times that the Aes Sedai are very capable of having imperfect knowledge about stuff in their areas of expertise.

[Suttree]

Pulled this over from the "Saddest Moment" thread as it clearly belongs over here instead.

You have what is basically Lews Therin who is hundreds of years older than you with more knowledge in his head telling you what needs to happen but you think your barely-more-than-twenty years knows more?

Rand is not some infallible god/emperor. We know when he met with Egwene in TGS to discuss the seals he had no idea how to make it work based on his memories. All he knew was that he couldn't do it the same way. It took Herid Fel who got him started down the path back when and Min to find the key for him. Egwene up until that meeting had heard he was insane and had been committing atrocities(slaughtering his own troops in the Damona Campaign, leaving a city to starve because he couldn't use them as "tools", balefiring innocents while trying to take out Graendal). He then waltzes in, says he is breaking the seals and refuses to discuss it with Egwene despite her asking to plan. It is her duty at that point as Amyrlin to question his actions and it would have been totally unrealistic if she didn't.

. Nothing she ever did put the fate of the world as a primary concern. it was all about establishing Tower dominance and as a result, personal dominance.

It is astonishing how some people let character bias get in the way of what actually happens in the books. We are literally hammered over the head with the pressure Egwene feels in reuniting the WT for the good of the world at TG. You can argue she has imbibed a bit too much of the AS kool-aid(but it's realistic, they have been the main force against the shadow for 3,000 years and are the only reason anyone even remembers the DO) but to say it's all a personnel power grab is patently absurd. Just a few examples:

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

ToM

"All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan. We have to—"

Was she going to suck herself dry as she fought this battle? She had chosen—or, would have chosen—the Green and not the Blue. The difference wasn't just that she liked the way the Greens stood up and fought; she thought that the Blues were too focused. Life was more complicated than a single cause. Life was about living. About dreaming, laughing and dancing.
Gawyn was in the Aes Sedai camp. She said that she'd chosen the Green for its aggressive determination—it was the Battle Ajah. But a more secret, more honest, part of herself admitted that Gawyn was a motivation for her decision as well. Among the Green Ajah, marrying one's Warder was common. Egwene would have Gawyn for her Warder. And her husband. She loved him. She would bond him. Those desires of her heart were less important than the fate of the world, true, but they were still important.

Sentiments like this are repeated over and over again while your point above has zero support from the text.

I fully believe that had Moiraine not been there, Egwene would have doomed the world in her own pride and desire for total control.

Actually per the author we know that goes both ways. Rand had to be convinced to wait on breaking the seals just as much as Egwene had to be convinced it needed to be done.

Moiraine’s prophesied purpose during the Last Battle was to stop Egwene and Rand from going to The Last Battle separately instead of together.

They needed each other and without them both they would not have won.

Saddest moment? Not even close for me...
I really expected Bela to survive and was sad she didn't.

This really says all we need to know.

Egwene literally tells Lews Therin "she's been researching, reading old books kept in the Tower". WTF?

Yes because the almighty Jesus Rand would never rely on someone from this age to find the answers for him in old books.

ToM

"I need you, Min."

"You have me. Stupid looby."

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

Dude, you are speaking to the man that actually sealed the bore. He is telling you that shit isnt gonna work anymore. You have no experience, no knowledge of the matter whatsoever.

Of course she has no knowledge whatsoever, how absurd. It's not as if Egwene played a crucial role in defeating the DO by finding that piece of information in the WT library which told everyone when to break the seals and then gave the order for breaking them to Logain which allowed the DO to be seal...errr wait a minute. Yes LTT sealed the bore but it was also his flawed plan that caused saidin to be tainted. Breaking the seals when Rand wanted to this time around would have been disastrous.

 

Edited January 26, 2013 by Suttree
lets stick to the posts not the poster

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I have to admit, a lot of the books I was either neutral about Egwene or thought she was kind of a jerk. One thing Sanderson did in this last book is make me like her.... and then killed her! EVIL.

 

I really like her interaction with Tuon. It was one of the few times in all the books that I was behind her completely. And, I had problems in the earlier books with her not wanting Rand to break the seals. In this book at least she had a reason and a time. That made her complaint about his plan seem more than just her whining. I liked that she was the one to face Taim. It was not what I expected in the least yet made complete and utter sense. He was the Top Dreadlord. She was the Amyrlin. And, as a guy who didn't give a crap if she was killed off or not going into the book, I actually was upset that she wasn't able to live centuries as she had threatened Tuon with. Actually, writing this, I think what Sanderson did in this last book with Egwene may have been the best thing he did in the books because I really was not an Egwene fan and he made me like her.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Barid Bel Medar
inappropriate

[Stormcrown]

Suttree, that was EXTREMELY well done. Textbook example of counter argument.

[Apoc81]

CanUFeelTheLove?, on 24 Jan 2013 - 21:13, said:I have to admit, a lot of the books I was either neutral about Egwene or thought she was kind of a jerk. One thing Sanderson did in this last book is make me like her.... and then the bastard killed her! EVIL.
I really like her interaction with Tuon. It was one of the few times in all the books that I was behind her completely. And, I had problems in the earlier books with her not wanting Rand to break the seals. In this book at least she had a reason and a time. That made her complaint about his plan seem more than just her whining. I liked that she was the one to face Taim. It was not what I expected in the least yet made complete and utter sense. He was the Top Dreadlord.

Actually, Taim was not a dreadlord at all. He was 'Chosen'.

[nikios2099]

 

 

 

 (POV ruminations don't count)

 

 

 

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never  understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

Edited January 25, 2013 by nikios2099

[waffle]

DIdn't like Egwene much in the beginning of the book. Circlejerky and arrogant. Fell in love with her when she met Tuon. Most of the conversation was boring "lets be logical" stuff, but she let her feelings show and that was awesome. Even if the "i intend to live for centuries" did make me certain that she would die soon. She kept getting better from there. And then she died. Sad. Not super sad, but sad. Sorry to see her go. At least she went out swinging. But what would become of her legacy? Would the channelers ever achieve any kind of unity/cooperation without her?

And then the epilogue. Cadsuane is alive. Angry. Cadusane is alive while Egwene died. Very angry. Cadsuane is being made Amyrlin. Will not read the book again any time soon. While i did not like Egwene much over the rest of the books, i though she would be taking the WT in the right direction with only a slightly superior attitude towards everyone else. But Cadsuane? She will reinforce all negative prejudice anyone has against Aes Sedai. An awful injustice. A cruel twist.

 

e- then i remembered it's just a book and felt kind of stupid

Edited January 25, 2013 by waffle

[XXX]

Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.

Edited January 26, 2013 by XXX47

[fionwe1987]

Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.