Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Shaolin]

To be fair, Egwene wasn't standing near Rand when she said she wanted to control the LB. we've seen from her point of view how a conversation with Rand actually present doesn't always go the way you planned.

 

For the anti-balefire, I wish there was more detail than "she wove... something." Obviously she knows how to weave balefire, so couldn't it be elaborated that she intentionally wove the opposite? After all, it's just a weave, so I'm sure she knows specifics on how to weave it. Wouldn't even need individual threads, but more than "something."

 

The only time I really liked Egwene was when she was taking beatings trying to fix the tower. And the power play to make her Amyrilin of the rebels was pretty cool too. I get that the head of the white tower had to go one on one with the head of the black tower, but I would've much rathered M'Hael vs Logain. But that's for a different discussion. Back to Egwene. Meh.

[papertiger]

Well, Sanderson did admit to being influenced by Portal so perhaps that's where the plot holes came from.

[papertiger]

Also, that Note that Egwene found really was the equivalent to Rand happening upon the fat man an'greal at Dumai's Wells. So last minute!

[Agitel]

Also, that Note that Egwene found really was the equivalent to Rand happening upon the fat man an'greal at Dumai's Wells. So last minute!

 

The Wheel was certainly weaving as it would at that moment.

[Morsker]

Well, Sanderson did admit to being influenced by Portal so perhaps that's where the plot holes came from.

 

I thought someone asked him about Portal and he said no? Besides, most of the things he did with gateways are things fans though of over a decade ago.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Morsker

[papertiger]

Yeah, I specifically remember an article from WOTFAQ that suggested pushing the gholam through a gateway into a volcano, Terminator 2 style.

[XXX]

 

Anyway even if it effects the bad guys more,how come it is the opposite of balefire?.Balefire frys both the good and bad guys equally,not good guys more!

 

 

Balefire is about more than damaging people. It burns the pattern, and apparently her weave does the opposite, by fixing the pattern.

 

Ok,I get that but what about affecting bad guys more? Which part of tht is equivalent to balefire?

[Kudlak]

 

 

Anyway even if it effects the bad guys more,how come it is the opposite of balefire?.Balefire frys both the good and bad guys equally,not good guys more!

 

 

Balefire is about more than damaging people. It burns the pattern, and apparently her weave does the opposite, by fixing the pattern.

 

Ok,I get that but what about affecting bad guys more? Which part of tht is equivalent to balefire?

 

Dont know ...not in book - btw it is supposed to be anti-balefire no equivalent tj. no same abilities (stupid example but do you play warcraft 3 ???)

[mokaloka99]

Egwene - I have always disliked her since book 1. On re-reads I would skim her chapters or skip them altogether. I do like her taking back over the tower from the inside arc but that is about the only part of her story i enjoyed. After becoming Amrylin, she seems to have caught on to the same Aes Sedai naivety that effects the rest of them. The "I am Aes Sedai, hear me Roar, I know best, everyone kneels to the tower, we control all, we know all", mentality. So when she died I actually smiled. I smiled first when Gawyn died because he was another character I pretty much disliked throughout the series and also smiled at the pain it caused Egwene.

 

Discussion:

 

Here is where I ask others to think about her character and ask what happened to her in AMOL. She spent the entire series following someone around trying to learn how to be like them. Nynaeve, Moraine, Aiel Wise Ones, Broken Tower, Full Tower. I get it, she is not a quitter and is extremely focused on achieving what she sets out to. She is intelligent and strong in the power. At what point in all of this though, does she learn the qualifications to be a world leader, a diplomat, a General of Armies, a expert on the past histories of AOL, etc. She acts like she is the worlds authority on all of this. At multiple times during the last battle she "sees" the battle going poorly and questions Mat's tactics.... I can understand this from other leaders that have fought in battles but she has never lead a battle before. She has no memories from her past. She has never dealt with high up authority other than Elayne and the high ups in the White Tower. She basically rode in on others coat tails and we are supposed to accept that she is all of what she is in AMOL after 2 years and the majority of that time she is just trying to be a wisdom or an aes sedai or a wise one. 

 

She knows the best way to fight the last battle, how to direct Rand through his fight with the Dark One, she knows when to break the seals and that Rand is wrong. At the time they argued about this she didnt know. She just assumed she was right VS a man with all the past memories of Lews Therin. 

 

Wasn't she with Rand and the Aiel during all the battles Mat was directing during books 4-6? Is it possible that she is all of the above yet she never heard the rumors or stories about Mat. So instead of taking those into consideration she reflects back to a child hood memory of him saving someone as her reasoning to grant Mat control of all the armies for the last battle?

 

I can go on and ON with her... I am glad to wash my hands of her character and again very very satisfied to not only see her die but to have her experience the loss of Gawyn before she died. 

[Dastion]

I don't think it's entirely fair to hate on Egwene. Yes, I often disliked the way she treated her friends, such as how she bullied Nynaeve to gain the upper hand or told them off when she was in danger of being discovered entering TAR on her own. However, she also later admits to having a dream of bad repercussions if she had approached them, though that was specifically in reference to the time of her head aches.

 

No she didn't have special memories to instantly grant her knowledge of lore or battles. Instead she had a determination and eagerness to learn everything rivaled by very few. She spent a lot if time with Siuan learning the histories, nevermind her personal reading, and I can see why RJ/Bs didn't feel it necessary to mention every single time she picked up an educational book. Though the characters did often refer to how she was picking up on subtleties (Moiraine goes so far as to indicate her ability to pick up on the fact that something was going on even when she didn't know what). As to the Seals, well she DID have access to many books from the age of legends and references having used it in her decision with the seals (which by all accounts turned out to be right).

 

Egwene was a good person with enough annoying tendencies to make you dislike her. That's what makes her well written. We all have people who aren't 'bad' but who we cannot stand. Personally I think Egwene's sacrifice was meant in part to redeem these qualities.

[Suttree]

 

After becoming Amrylin, she seems to have caught on to the same Aes Sedai naivety that effects the rest of them. The "I am Aes Sedai, hear me Roar, I know best, everyone kneels to the tower, we control all, we know all", mentality.  

On the contrary she called them fools and vowed they must change moving forward. She did more in her short time as Amyrlin to reform the WT than about any other AS in the last 3,000 years. Did she buy into the kool aid a bit much about the power of the Amyrlin(that was Brandon in AMoL as much as anything) and AS being best suited to lead against the shadow? Sure she did, but she was very much aware of their shortcomings as well.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Suttree

[JACKSONROY]

I'm new to this so here goes,

 

Egwene is easily my favorite character of all time - above any other story or film or whatever.  You might find this a stretch but there is something about her will and determination that I admire. The story shows her development more than any other character's personality at she grows from a small town girl to a ruler, possibly the most powerful woman, and without being a prophesied character (I think).  Anyway you've all read the book so I don't need to explain her to you.  I am devastated that she is dead.

 

I like the comment on the Jenn Aiel using the anti-balefire weave, maybe it isn't new!

 

What I want to mention is how appropriate the way she died is.

 

It kinda sums up the entire series: two halves of a whole, good vs. evil, white/back, male/female, saidin vs. saidar, aaaand White Tower vs. Black Tower - or Amyrlin vs. M'hael

 

So why not Balefire vs. some couter weave?

 

It does seem appropriate to me, and I agree it could have been written better, but I wish she didn't die at all.  Same with Siuan.

 

  RIP EGWENE AL'VERE  

Edited January 18, 2013 by KinslayerSedai

[jjstraka34]

Egwene's ending makes sense. From the first few lessons she got from Moriaine in the flight from Emond's Field, Egwene's single goal was becoming Aes Sedai, and after she achieved that, she devoted herself wholly (more so than any other character) to her goal, which was reforming a broken White Tower. She was often annoying, and grating, but she also had the thankless job of leading the coldest group of human beings ever assembled in one organization. That she not only figuratively represented the Tower in the role of Amyrlin, but quite literally took on the physical manifestation of Aes Sedai power in her final moments is certainly a fitting ending. 

 

Also, Gawyn's death obviously foreshadowed Egwene's, but so did Bela's, as you will remember that one of the first times Rand unwittingly used the power was when he healed Bela's fatigue so Egwene could be carried to safety. When Bela went, I knew Egwene didn't have long. 

Edited January 18, 2013 by jjstraka34

[XXX]

Egwene - I have always disliked her since book 1. On re-reads I would skim her chapters or skip them altogether. I do like her taking back over the tower from the inside arc but that is about the only part of her story i enjoyed. After becoming Amrylin, she seems to have caught on to the same Aes Sedai naivety that effects the rest of them. The "I am Aes Sedai, hear me Roar, I know best, everyone kneels to the tower, we control all, we know all", mentality. So when she died I actually smiled. I smiled first when Gawyn died because he was another character I pretty much disliked throughout the series and also smiled at the pain it caused Egwene.

 

Discussion:

 

Here is where I ask others to think about her character and ask what happened to her in AMOL. She spent the entire series following someone around trying to learn how to be like them. Nynaeve, Moraine, Aiel Wise Ones, Broken Tower, Full Tower. I get it, she is not a quitter and is extremely focused on achieving what she sets out to. She is intelligent and strong in the power. At what point in all of this though, does she learn the qualifications to be a world leader, a diplomat, a General of Armies, a expert on the past histories of AOL, etc. She acts like she is the worlds authority on all of this. At multiple times during the last battle she "sees" the battle going poorly and questions Mat's tactics.... I can understand this from other leaders that have fought in battles but she has never lead a battle before. She has no memories from her past. She has never dealt with high up authority other than Elayne and the high ups in the White Tower. She basically rode in on others coat tails and we are supposed to accept that she is all of what she is in AMOL after 2 years and the majority of that time she is just trying to be a wisdom or an aes sedai or a wise one. 

 

She knows the best way to fight the last battle, how to direct Rand through his fight with the Dark One, she knows when to break the seals and that Rand is wrong. At the time they argued about this she didnt know. She just assumed she was right VS a man with all the past memories of Lews Therin. 

 

Wasn't she with Rand and the Aiel during all the battles Mat was directing during books 4-6? Is it possible that she is all of the above yet she never heard the rumors or stories about Mat. So instead of taking those into consideration she reflects back to a child hood memory of him saving someone as her reasoning to grant Mat control of all the armies for the last battle?

 

I can go on and ON with her... I am glad to wash my hands of her character and again very very satisfied to not only see her die but to have her experience the loss of Gawyn before she died. 

 

Thank you,I had forgotten about this. How on earth did Egwene who has never ever directed a battle or even seen one up close know about battlefield tactics?

 

I could put the same question about Perrin who also seemed to know what to do from the very start.

[Shaolin]

For any of the 3 guys, you can always chalk it up to ta'veren. She has no excuse

[Luckers]

Egwene dying did feel a bit like 'a major character needs to die, which is the least liked--yup, short straw'.

 

That being said the concept of Egwene's death--killing the M'hael, restoring order to Patter by undoing what BF did (restoring order being Egwene's underlying theme).

 

I didn't feel that emotionally it paid off though--that she'd block and repair balefire became obvious in her oft repeated angst about balefire, her consideration of Perrins comment, and he fixing of the balefire fissures (which themself felt designed to show bluntly what she was achieving).

 

And her death felt contrived--as in, the specifics--the sa'angreal suddenly being bufferless despite no mention and this only resulting from the extreme conditions known in manufacturing during the final days of the Way of the Shadow...

[XXX]

For any of the 3 guys, you can always chalk it up to ta'veren. She has no excuse

 

Tavern makes u a battlefield genius?, well then it made only Perrin one. Rand did not lead any battle on his own.He had the Aiel and Bashere in every engagement.Mat has his memories.What did Perrin have? 

 

Egwene case is even worse than his. Atleast he fought a no of times in real battles before the end.

[Shaolin]

You can never really make a wrong move if things just happen to go your way. And Perrin generally had a lot of council

[Rand the Plumber]

[...]the sa'angreal suddenly being bufferless despite no mention and this only resulting from the extreme conditions known in manufacturing during the final days of the Way of the Shadow...

Oh. I didn't pick up on this. How... convenient.

[Rand the Plumber]

[...]the sa'angreal suddenly being bufferless despite no mention and this only resulting from the extreme conditions known in manufacturing during the final days of the Way of the Shadow...

 

Oh.  I didn't pick up on this.  How... convenient.

[Dnara]

While this is not specifically about Egwene, it is relevant to the discussions going on in this thread.

 

Earlier in this thread, I commented on how I felt what Gawyn did in going after Demandred was out of character and didn't make sense. After reading more on this topic, I believe that I've been viewing that entire sequence from the wrong perspective--focusing on Gawyn and his resulting effect on Egwene.

 

While I do still think it was out of character for him to do what he did, I believe the point of those who went directly after Demandred was more about Lan (and indirectly Rand) and less about Gawyn and Galad. There have been several times in the books where it boasts how good of a swordsman Gawyn was, but there were also several points where it mentions that Galad has always been a little better than Gawyn. So, Brandon sends Gawyn in first. He fails. Then he sends in Galad, who is a little bit better. He doesn't die, but he's defeated pretty severely. He can't send in Rand or Mat (it needed to be a common man to set up for Rand's dialog at the end). So, he sends in Lan who is repeatedly mentioned as harder and more stubborn than stone (and we've had glimpses of his skill in action, as well as how much others respect his ability). Third time is a charm and Lan (someone much more seasoned and hardened than the other two) is the one who stands back up (in case it wasn't obvious before, now we know just how good/determined/honed Lan is). Brandon knew he had to kill off Egwene anyway, and it was probably long ago determined that she would be the source of the "Light" that was their signal to break the seals. So, why not kill off Gawyn rather than just have him wounded like Galad.

 

The progression of events didn't read smoothly, but I'm willing to bet this is close to the lines of thinking.

[Suttree]

And her death felt contrived--as in, the specifics--the sa'angreal suddenly being bufferless despite no mention and this only resulting from the extreme conditions known in manufacturing during the final days of the Way of the Shadow...

There were a number of throwawy lines like this as if it was forgotten the first time around and added as a band aid after the fact.

 

Faile non-chalantly thinking one sentence about her father being a DF and betraying the light was another odd one. Something like that would certainly have loomed much larger on her mind.

[TNine]

Faile non-chalantly thinking one sentence about her father being a DF and betraying the light was another odd one. Something like that would certainly have loomed much larger on her mind.

Wait, what is this?

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Faile non-chalantly thinking one sentence about her father being a DF and betraying the light was another odd one. Something like that would certainly have loomed much larger on her mind.

Wait, what is this?

Before it was made clear to the light siders that compulsion played a role with the Generals, Faile thought her Father had betrayed the light. Instead of being devastated and it being front and center in her thoughts she thinks about it in one sentence in an offhanded "oh whatevs" manner. The thought comes out of the blue after pages of internal monologue as well. Edited January 18, 2013 by Suttree

[Luckers]

 

And her death felt contrived--as in, the specifics--the sa'angreal suddenly being bufferless despite no mention and this only resulting from the extreme conditions known in manufacturing during the final days of the Way of the Shadow...

There were a number of throwawy lines like this as if it was forgotten the first time around and added as a band aid after the fact.

 

Faile non-chalantly thinking one sentence about her father being a DF and betraying the light was another odd one. Something like that would certainly have loomed much larger on her mind.

 

It did occur to me that this was beta fix to Egwene burning out whilst using a sa'angreal. It's a bit sad though--there were other ways, say, the same path that the female Choedan Kal went and it being a result of stress, not drawing too much.

 

Cheap answers plague the last three books.