Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jedman67]

@jedman67,

"also remember that min had a vision of siuan naked,but there was somthing

odd about the viewing."

when did that happen?

was it before or after eliada's coup?

it's completely unlike me to forget a naked woman lol,and former amyrlin at that.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1. It's a vision that's fulfilled when she later rescues Suian from the cell, after her being deposed and stilled by Elaida. If someone here can find the quote i'd appreciate it.

[BFG]

As requested

 

 

 Halfway down, with her skirts already spread, she froze like a crouching toad. Siuan Sanche was standing there as regal as any queen, and for a moment she was also lying on the floor, naked. Aside from her being in only her skin, there was something odd about the image, but it vanished before Min could say what. It was as strong a viewing as she had ever seen, and she had no idea what it meant.
   "Seeing things again, are you?" the Amyrlin said. "Well, I can certainly make use of that ability of yours. I could have used it all the months you were gone. But we'll not talk of that. What's done is done. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills." She smiled a tight smile. "But if you do it again, I'll have your hide for gloves. Stand up, girl. Leane forces enough ceremony on me in a month to last any sensible woman a year. I don't have time for it. Not these days. Now, what did you just see?"
   Min straightened slowly. It was a relief to be back with someone who knew of her talent, even if it was the Amyrlin Seat herself. She did not have to hide what she saw from the Amyrlin. Far from it. "You were... You weren't wearing any clothes. I... I don't know what it means, Mother."
   Siuan barked a short, mirthless laugh. "No doubt that I'll take a lover. But I have no time for that, either. There's no time for winking at the men when you're busy bailing the boat."
   "Maybe," Min said slowly. It could have meant that, though she doubted it. "I just do not know. But, Mother, I've been seeing things ever since I walked into the Tower. Something bad is going to happen, something terrible."

[jedman67]

Thank you BFG! Some great forshadowing in that book.

[jack of shadows]

@jedman67,

not just great foreshadowing in that book but also another naked woman(several,actually,in one pool) lol.

in the same shadow rising,robert jordan did write the most erotic scene in the wheel of time

in my opinion,involving min,elayne,aviendha,lanfear and rand of course,and as far as i know,it's the only

scene with the five of them together:

"the woman who stood there,palely naked,was the most beautiful he had ever seen,with big,dark eyes

that made his head whirl."

soon afterwards,our legendary hero did find himself tangled with a very naked lanfear who gave him a

hickey,and instead of rising to the occasion(pun intended,he is the dragon reborn after all) and keeping

lanfear happy,rand hurled her away!!!damn!!!

it's a small wonder that i completely forgot about a naked siuan.lol.

[RiBurton]

Since Aludra introduced guns & cannon I was expecting to see the One Power stripped from the people in 

the new age   Also I'm still not sure I understand how Rand assumed Moridin's physical body.  When Moridin stabbed his hand & Rand's hand bled, I suppose that was a clue.

 

[Rhienne]

When exactly did the Fourth Age start?  Is it when Rand defeated the DO or when Rand wanders off into the distance?  If the latter, it might be that the ability to channel has gone, although I think its unlikely.  

[mbuehner]

Since Aludra introduced guns & cannon I was expecting to see the One Power stripped from the people in 

the new age   Also I'm still not sure I understand how Rand assumed Moridin's physical body.  When Moridin stabbed his hand & Rand's hand bled, I suppose that was a clue.

 

We know of only 1 way and 1 place a soul can be stuffed inside a different body- transmigration at SG. I suggest the simplest solution is some form of transmigration.

[shortkut]

 

 

Since Aludra introduced guns & cannon I was expecting to see the One Power stripped from the people in

the new age Also I'm still not sure I understand how Rand assumed Moridin's physical body. When Moridin stabbed his hand & Rand's hand bled, I suppose that was a clue.

We know of only 1 way and 1 place a soul can be stuffed inside a different body- transmigration at SG. I suggest the simplest solution is some form of transmigration.

There was also some hint in the double bond that one of them thought they could pull into the other's body by mistake. The bond between rand and moridin seems more on the physical level than the mental level, but there could be some relation there.

[Barid Bel Medar]

There is also making a Nym, that involved placing a soul into a new body. However, the process has several differences. Transmigration involves "catching" a soul before death, and placing it in a soulless body. 

 

Creating a Nym drags a soul from the "soul pool" and putting it in an artificial body. Trollocs etc.. are another, similar way of "forcing" souls into one form or another. 

 

The body swap doesn't really fit any of the known possibilities. Transmigration, I agree, would be the closest, as it is the only one that involves a "living" human body. However, the body is usually soulless, and the person Transmigrated is usually dead. Plus the fact that the DO is the only entity that has the power to do so as far as we have seen. That doesn't mean it's impossible obviously, the Creator may have that power - but it would break the "no-interference" rule far too much if the Creator actively performed a body-swap Transmigration. A little push in the right direction is plausible, but I don't think the Creator would actually do it, it would have to have been Rand. 

 

But it would be an extremely complicated Transmigration. Going by the rules we know, both Rand and Moridin would have had to die. Then Rand's soul placed in Moridin's body and vice versa. THe problem with that is the timing - from what we know, it seems to take some time for a transmigration to occur. Aginor and Balthamael, even Moridin took some time to revive. (that might just be RJ deciding to introduce a new plot element after X books, rather than any actual time difficulties) The Swap seems almost instantaneous. Also, it begs the question as to why Moridin was placed in Rand's body rather than left to die. Perhaps it has something to do with the others seeing Rand die - but I don't see why a dead Rand-body would present any difficulties. 

 

I would say - and I believe Brandon has said while he doesn't know how, it is due to the strange link Moridin and Rand had - that the link allowed Rand to actively switch bodies. It's possible he figured it out on his own. There is debate over whether he told Alivia about it beforehand he went to Shayol Ghul. (How else could she possibly know to pack things for him in Moridin's body. Of course, there is the possibility he woke up and talked to her between the swap and the Rand PoV at the end, it's anyone's guess.)

If he didn't figure it out before Shayol Ghul, it's also possible that his revelations in the battle with the DO gave him the knowledge to do so. The third possibility is that the old woman who Rand thought he saw at Shayol Ghul (likely Nakomi) helped him out there. 

 

So Rand actively doing it seems the most plausible option. That he found a way to exploit the powers of the link with Moridin (by whatever means) and swapped his soul with Moridin's, into a healthy body, leaving the Rand-body - which was likely destroyed irreparably in the confrontation - to die with Moridin's soul. He likely burned himself out - since burning out is not "healed" if the soul is not reborn naturally - leaving him Powerless.

 

That seems the best explanation, although the specifics are beyond me, and we won't likely know in any further detail unless more information is given to us - which is highly unlikely, since Brandon doesn't even know what happened. It seems it was something RJ didn't leave in his notes, perhaps only RJ ever knew how it happened. 

[jack of shadows]

@riburton,

"since aludra introduced guns and cannon.."

we don't have guns in randland(not yet anyway),

what we do have is cannons and very primitive grenades.

during the 10th century,chinese soldiers created the(probably)the first grenade

by packing gunpowder into ceramic or metal container,and with the aid of a simple

paper fuse blew it.

aludra used a similar method to create dragon eggs.

[jack of shadows]

@rhienne,

according to loial,the fourth age did start when rand sealed the bore

"it was the fourth age now,wasn't it? could an age start in the middle of the day?

but everyone agreed.rand had sealed the bore at noon."

as you said in your post,i don't believe the ability or inability to channel has anything

to do with the coming of a new age,nynaeve already proved she could embrace the source

without any trouble a few hours after the last battle when she tried to intimidate aviendha,

"all right,she said menacingly,embracing the source.out with it."

[Suttree]

Well we do know there is a point on the wheel where channeling has yet to be discovered.

[jedman67]

@jedman67,

not just great foreshadowing in that book but also another naked woman(several,actually,in one pool) lol.

in the same shadow rising,robert jordan did write the most erotic scene in the wheel of time

in my opinion,involving min,elayne,aviendha,lanfear and rand of course,and as far as i know,it's the only

scene with the five of them together:

"the woman who stood there,palely naked,was the most beautiful he had ever seen,with big,dark eyes

that made his head whirl."

soon afterwards,our legendary hero did find himself tangled with a very naked lanfear who gave him a

hickey,and instead of rising to the occasion(pun intended,he is the dragon reborn after all) and keeping

lanfear happy,rand hurled her away!!!damn!!!

it's a small wonder that i completely forgot about a naked siuan.lol.

It was only lanfear manipulating rand's dream (and asmodean watching). I think RJ (since he seems to gloss over intimacy, rather than avoiding or detailing it) he may have been trying to suggest that the forsaken, and rand's enemies in general, would indeed use any weapon or tool - including sex - to achieve their goals. It's subtle, but powerful.

(see further: Shaidar Haran torturing Moghedian and Grandeal)

[jedman67]

Na'eblis:

 

The first we see of Ishamael, he's so insane that he believes that he is the DO. This includes him getting into peoples dreams (pulling Rand into his own private dreamshard, for ex.)

We also see (likely another Dreamshard) an impossible land of bridges, arches and ramps, filled with a burning sun and evil thorns. What was Ishy trying to accomplish in these dreams, when he could simply force a confrontation?

We also see occasional forsaken meeting in this particular place.

 

Our last confrontation with Ba'alzamon is when Rand kills him in the Stone of Tear; the next time we see him he's been resurrected as Moridin, and now he's Na'eblis. What did he do to earn himself this title, as opposed to say Aginor who revealed the DR, or Demandred who raised an army of channelers for the DO?

Or Grandeal who threw a quarter of Randland into chaos and civil war. Or Semhirage who co'opted the Return, and executed the Empress throwing Seanchan into civil war?

[BFG]

I thought that Moridin was made Nae'blis as a punishment?

[shortkut]

I thought he was resurrected as a punisent but made nae'blis because he is the dark one's champion

[jedman67]

I thought that Moridin was made Nae'blis as a punishment?

How would that be punishment? The other Forsaken seemed to think it was some great reward.

[Suttree]

I thought he was resurrected as a punisent but made nae'blis because he is the dark one's champion

Indeed. Much as Rand's soul is the CoL, Moridin's serves the other purpose. RJ confirmed he was correct with the "fought countless times" comment and BS has confirmed the souls are linked and often spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal. 

[jedman67]

 

I thought he was resurrected as a punisent but made nae'blis because he is the dark one's champion

Indeed. Much as Rand's soul is the CoL, Moridin's serves the other purpose. RJ confirmed he was correct with the "fought countless times" comment and BS has confirmed the souls are linked and often spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal. 

 

That would be an interesting marriage...

[BFG]

 

I thought that Moridin was made Nae'blis as a punishment?

How would that be punishment? The other Forsaken seemed to think it was some great reward.

 

 

Because Moridin wants to die, or more accurately wants oblivion.  Shortkut may have the right of it however, being brought back was a punishment, not so sure about Nae'blis.  But also the other Forsaken seem to believe that if the DO wins they'll get to Lord it over the rest of the Earth.  Moridin believes if the DO wins there will be oblivion, reading the last book I couldn't decide who was right.

[jack of shadows]

@jedman 67,

"it was only lanfear manipulating rand's dream."

well,not axactly.elayne and min were part of rand's dream.

aviendha was there watching from the bank because she was ordered by the wise women

to spy on rand.a fraction of a second later lanfear entered the scene,took control and removed

the competition.i.e.four girls in one pond,that's three girls too many from lanfear's point of view.

"should i allow you to be unfaithful to me,even in your dreams?"

a very powerful scene indeed,but nothing subtle about it-after all,we do have two lovers,one very

attractive spy,and one deranged ex-lover all in one place.ouch.

[jedman67]

@jedman 67,

"it was only lanfear manipulating rand's dream."

well,not axactly.elayne and min were part of rand's dream.

aviendha was there watching from the bank because she was ordered by the wise women

to spy on rand.a fraction of a second later lanfear entered the scene,took control and removed

the competition.i.e.four girls in one pond,that's three girls too many from lanfear's point of view.

"should i allow you to be unfaithful to me,even in your dreams?"

a very powerful scene indeed,but nothing subtle about it-after all,we do have two lovers,one very

attractive spy,and one deranged ex-lover all in one place.ouch.

The girls swimming and wanting Rand to join them is Lanfear manipulating Rand's dream. I don't believe Avihenda was able to enter the world of dreams without a terangreal.

Rand doesn't think about Min and Elayne that way yet, and neither of them are dreamwalkers, so its either Rands imagination or Lanfear playing her tricks. Remember that Lanfear was one of the most skilled dreamwalkers to live.

 

If you have a RJ or BS quote on this i'd appreciate it.

[jack of shadows]

@jedman67,

let me give you a few condensed quotes regarding aviendha,

"from where?she(aviendha)only stared at him,her face growing more and more crimson.

dreamwalkers.from inside my dreams,he said harshly.how long have they been spying

inside my head?"

"she let out a long heavy breath.i was not supposed to let you know,i cannot enter the dream

without one of them(dreamwalkers) to help me."

it is obvious to me that aviendha was sent by the wise women to spy on rand's dreams.

now to lanfear,why would she voice her displeasure about the women in rand's pool if it

was part of her own manipulation? "should i allow you to be unfaithful to me even in your dreams?"

it is clearly evident that lanfear is unhappy(to say the least) with her ex-lover:

"how many women do you hold in your thoughts?"

of course i remember that she is a tel'aran'rhiod master,but unfortunately for her,not everthing is under

"lanfearic" control. lol.

elayne and min were part of rand's dream,aviendha was a reluctant spy and lanfear was horny.

[shortkut]

I thought the girls were Randy's dream before lanfear showed up

[MasterAblar]

I thought the girls were Randy's dream before lanfear showed up

 

So did I. I doubt Rand needed Lanfear to have that kind of imagination...