Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Rhienne]

 

I still find Alivia to be an odd choice.  Rand barely new here.  And she is pretty conspicious being an extremely strong channeler and Seanchan, any AS in the area would probably be curious as to what she was doing.  I don't understand why Rand didn't just have Elayne/Min/Aviendha/a Maiden/a servant anyone leave some clothes out.  I don't see why it had to be Alivia in particular, or even why she would be anywhere near Rand's tent.  Surely there wouldn't be any good reason for her to be there and it would raise suspicions?

 Because the prophecy said she'd help him die. Otherwise she might end up killing Rand later. Makes sense in a world where prophecy works reliably.

 

I don't really understand that.  No one knew how Alivia was meant to help Rand die, and Rand had no way of knowing if this was a correct interpretation of the prophecy.  The only reason Rand knew Alivia had to help him in some way was through Min by chance seeing that vision.  We know that Min doesn't always see visions around people, so what if Min hadn't seen this vision?  Then Rand wouldn't have even thought of Alivia, probably.  Alternatively, another issue I see with it is that Rand knew Min had seen a vision that said Alivia would help him die, but if he hadn't specifically chosen to ask her to get clothes and money for him then it wouldn't have come true.  I don't see how this was an infalliable view of the future as nothing forced Rand to ask Alivia to do this for him.

[Thrasymachus]

Elayne, Min and Aviendha barely managed to pull off the deception as it was.  Everybody at Rand's funeral noted their lack of emotion.  If Rand had used them in his plans for escape, they'd have blown it entirely.  Min can't even keep her own secrets, Elayne would give them away in a tantrum/pique of arrogance/entitlement, and Aviendha wouldn't understand the need.  Alivia was the choice at hand that made the most sense, and it also happened to match prophecy.  Rand needed someone he could order, someone who he could rely on to follow his orders unquestioningly, and someone he could rely on to either keep quiet or would be ignored afterwards.  Really, who would believe Alivia, except for the 3, if she tried to give her evidence that the Dragon still lived?  Nynaeve, maybe? and Cadsuane, probably.  But really nobody who would have a reason to broadcast the fact to the world and would be believed based on that evidence.  Only someone who wanted to undermine the Dragon's Peace would stand to gain from that revelation.  That's the Seanchan and maybe some of the other rulers.  Those people aren't even gonna listen to Alivia if she decided to spill her beans, no matter that she would say something they'd like to hear and be able to prove.

[Guest gunner]

Soooooo.....

 

Does anyone actually understand what happened with Rand at the end there?  I just read 6 pages of thread here thinking I'd get a good explanation and I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen one since I saw a couple people asking.  I don't really get the body swap or the pipe thing....

 

I mean, I knew via discussion of the prophecies that it was coming, and I remember all the weirdo connection stuff with Moridin ever since they touched balefire beams, but I still don't understandy why they swapped bodies or how.  Or how Rand lit the pipe.  What am I missing here?

"He found nothing. NO saidin in the void, NOTHING. He paused, then smiled and felt an enormous relief. He could NOT channel. Just to be certain, he tentatively reached for the true power. NOTHING there either." So we see here that NOTHING is lets say key word to show... well LOL NOTHING no abilities at all. Next key part in story is " He regarded his pipe" = THOUGHT about how he wanted to or lets say wished he had a way to light it in my opinion. Next is " Rand smiled and turned south. He glanced over his shoulder. ALL three women at the pyre had turned from it to look directly at him." He smiled and looked back I think tells me he is thinking like would one of you mind lighting my pipe please. We know the bond is still there between them and we also know many of the abilities that come with that bound so it is not a stretch the believe that all three women now may FEEL that he would really like to smoke that pipe. Lets now also say that MAYBE they know what was set out for him in the way of supplies.( if anything like my wife believe me they know) So I think that yes power was used to light the pipe from one of the three now looking at him. Well probably not from Min anyway. Now as far as your Moridin question goes...well that still a good question to be debated.

[A Duke]

Elayne, Min and Aviendha barely managed to pull off the deception as it was.  Everybody at Rand's funeral noted their lack of emotion.  If Rand had used them in his plans for escape, they'd have blown it entirely.

 

I think the contrary is true. The reason I see for their unbelievable act is that they were surprised by what they were feeling through the bond and unsure how to process it. Frankly I am surprised they didn't go to him the moment he was up to understand if what they were feeling was real and if it was really Rand.

If they had more preparation and worked on an act together it would have been much more convincing. For example they could have just asked to be excused to mourn alone, would have been better than what they actually did.

 

As for the theory that he "asked" them through the bond to light the pipe. I find it unrealistic that he would risk bringing farther suspicion on himself by such a request. There are plenty of channelers in the area that could see the weaves. Plus he is risking some unknown reaction from them, it's not an ordinary situation after all.

[longtimefan]

"Scrap all that nonsense about needing evil to have some form of positive existence for people to have free will. You can have all degrees of relative darkness (which is just the relative absence of light) without needing the existence of an evil deity bent on erasing all of existence. People have different levels of honor, courage, integrity, knowledge, etc. You do not need a "Satan" type figure for people to have misplaced values, be self-centered, power-seeking, cruel, or have various other mental deficiencies. You can even keep the more fantasy genre type evil forces, like the powers Mordeth discovered that were an evil independent of the DO."

 

Respectfully, while I agree with the above post in theory, I don't agree with it in application.  It is true that many book series (The Chronicles of Prydain, The Lord of the Rings, etc.) subscribe to the notion that although you may be able to rid the world of the enchantment of evil, or evil supernatural beings, there is still the evil that exists within the hearts of men that must be contended with.  That type of evil can never be truly vanquished.  However, while this is certainly logical, it simply is not how Randland operates.  Randland is not the Earth as we know it, despite references to Mosk and Merk and other intriguing teasers that make the reader wonder whether our age is supposed to be a very distant past, or perhaps future, of Randland.  In Rand's world, the Dark One is the source of all evil.  Not just evil magic.  All evil.  Even the evil of Shadar Logoth was birthed from the Dark One, despite the fact that they were enemies.  But for the Dark One, Shadar Logoth would have never become the twisted shadow city that it became.  As Robert Jordan stated, Mordeth simply convinced the city to use the Dark One's own tactics against him, causing the people to become more cruel and dark than the very forces they were attempting to shield themselves from.  

[jack of shadows]

@thrasymachus,

"elayne,min and aviendha barely managed to pull off the deception as it was"

i completely agree with a duke,rand's three lovers did the best they could in a very confusing situation.

the three of them were summoned to rand's tent to visit him for the last time,but rand was not dying,

he was getting better-the existing bond was evident enough,what they didn't know is the how?

let me remind you that rand and moridin were in the same place,almost side by side,so the bond came from the

 same direction,rand body was dying but the bond was getting stronger with every passing moment,all very confusing without them knowing the last piece of the puzzle-the body swap.

in my opinion,only when rand's body(moridin) was put on the pyre,only then the girls did understand

that rand is not in his old body anymore(the bond was coming from a different direction altogether).

some of us don't like elayne,others don't like min,that's okay,everyone is entitled to their own opinion,

but the three of them do love rand deeply and generously,and rand should have selected one of them

over alivia.

this whole alivia story arc does not make any sense.(to me at least).

[David Selig]

 

 

I still find Alivia to be an odd choice.  Rand barely new here.  And she is pretty conspicious being an extremely strong channeler and Seanchan, any AS in the area would probably be curious as to what she was doing.  I don't understand why Rand didn't just have Elayne/Min/Aviendha/a Maiden/a servant anyone leave some clothes out.  I don't see why it had to be Alivia in particular, or even why she would be anywhere near Rand's tent.  Surely there wouldn't be any good reason for her to be there and it would raise suspicions?

 Because the prophecy said she'd help him die. Otherwise she might end up killing Rand later. Makes sense in a world where prophecy works reliably.

 

I don't really understand that.  No one knew how Alivia was meant to help Rand die, and Rand had no way of knowing if this was a correct interpretation of the prophecy.  The only reason Rand knew Alivia had to help him in some way was through Min by chance seeing that vision.  We know that Min doesn't always see visions around people, so what if Min hadn't seen this vision?  Then Rand wouldn't have even thought of Alivia, probably.  Alternatively, another issue I see with it is that Rand knew Min had seen a vision that said Alivia would help him die, but if he hadn't specifically chosen to ask her to get clothes and money for him then it wouldn't have come true.  I don't see how this was an infalliable view of the future as nothing forced Rand to ask Alivia to do this for him.

 

This kind of paradoxes are inevitable when prophesies are concerned. It would hardly be the first self-fulfilling prophecy in the series. The whole Dragon Reborn plot is a self-fulfilling prophecy to a degree.

[jack of shadows]

@david selig,

in winter heart,min  saw a viewing about alivia that she will help rand die.

my question here is how did rand arrive from she will help you to die to

please prepare some provisions for me,i am planning a disappearing act

after the last battle when min herself completely misunderstood her own

viewing:"rand,i like alivia.but she is going to kill you".

this is not a self fulfilling prophecy,the fragment of future that min saw

and rand's reaction are totally unrelated.

[mbuehner]

@david selig,

in winter heart,min  saw a viewing about alivia that she will help rand die.

my question here is how did rand arrive from she will help you to die to

please prepare some provisions for me,i am planning a disappearing act

after the last battle when min herself completely misunderstood her own

viewing:"rand,i like alivia.but she is going to kill you".

this is not a self fulfilling prophecy,the fragment of future that min saw

and rand's reaction are totally unrelated.

 

Well, when Min said that Rand immediately corrected her so she definitely told Rand the "she will help you die" version prior to that. I think you're also assuming that Rand arranged for Alivia to help arrange his stuff and I dont think there is any evidence for that. It just worked out that Alivia arranged his stuff, thereby fulfilling the vision, not through anyones planning.

[Rhienne]

It just worked out that Alivia arranged his stuff, thereby fulfilling the vision, not through anyones planning.

 

 

Why would Alivia decide to randomly leave out clothes and money next to the body of a Forsaken unless she had been asked to by Rand?

[mbuehner]

 

It just worked out that Alivia arranged his stuff, thereby fulfilling the vision, not through anyones planning.

 

 

Why would Alivia decide to randomly leave out clothes and money next to the body of a Forsaken unless she had been asked to by Rand?

 

Because she was asked to by someone else? Clearly there was some kind of a pow-wow between the major characters regarding Rand's new body that occurred off-camera. There no reason to believe somebody said 'hey, lets knock out that vision Min had'. Its possible, I guess, but it seems likely that in the course of pulling together their plan somebody told Alivia to run a few errands and keep her mouth shut about it.

[Rhienne]

 

 

It just worked out that Alivia arranged his stuff, thereby fulfilling the vision, not through anyones planning.

 

 

Why would Alivia decide to randomly leave out clothes and money next to the body of a Forsaken unless she had been asked to by Rand?

 

Because she was asked to by someone else? Clearly there was some kind of a pow-wow between the major characters regarding Rand's new body that occurred off-camera. There no reason to believe somebody said 'hey, lets knock out that vision Min had'. Its possible, I guess, but it seems likely that in the course of pulling together their plan somebody told Alivia to run a few errands and keep her mouth shut about it.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post.  I thought you'd meant that Alivia had for no reason at all left out some clothes and money next to Moridin.

[jack of shadows]

@mbuehner,

"assuming that rand arranged for alivia to help arrange his stuff,and i don't think

there is any evidence for that."

actually,we do have evidence for exactly that,from page 907:

"well,he'd(rand's point of view) told her to get him some gold,and she'd done it."

it is highly unlikely that rand did ask alivia to get him only money,in my opinion,

rand planned the whole thing out in advance and did request alivia to prepare

the aforementioned provisions prior to the last battle.

[mbuehner]

@mbuehner,

"assuming that rand arranged for alivia to help arrange his stuff,and i don't think

there is any evidence for that."

actually,we do have evidence for exactly that,from page 907:

"well,he'd(rand's point of view) told her to get him some gold,and she'd done it."

it is highly unlikely that rand did ask alivia to get him only money,in my opinion,

rand planned the whole thing out in advance and did request alivia to prepare

the aforementioned provisions prior to the last battle.

 

Interesting take. We might actually get an answer on that- did Rand give Alivia orders BEFORE he entered the PoD.

[jack of shadows]

@mbuehner,

"we might actually get an answer on that."

did brandon sanderson give any clarification regarding rand's orders to alivia before

he entered the pit of doom?

[jack of shadows]

@paul h,

"if that is right,then i wonder if that means she got pregnant with quadruplets,

or if she and rand/moridin will have more children later to bring the total to four."

it took me awhile to find min's relevant viewing regarding aviendha's pregnancy,but i did find it.

in winter heart,min had a viewing about aviendha that she would have four

of rand's children all at once.

our legedary hero(who is a bachelor by the way),has three lovers,very soon is going to be

a father of six, and now, he is nowhere to be found.

damn,it's good to be the king lol.

[Paul H]

@paul h,

"if that is right,then i wonder if that means she got pregnant with quadruplets,

or if she and rand/moridin will have more children later to bring the total to four."

it took me awhile to find min's relevant viewing regarding aviendha's pregnancy,but i did find it.

in winter heart,min had a viewing about aviendha that she would have four

of rand's children all at once.

our legedary hero(who is a bachelor by the way),has three lovers,very soon is going to be

a father of six, and now, he is nowhere to be found.

damn,it's good to be the king lol.

 

Thanks very much for looking that up!  I have so much trouble remembering all of these details, even after reading most of the books twice.  (And occasionally I even confuse what I have read in the books with what I have read in interviews with Jordan and Sanderson, or in the old online Wheel of Time FAQ, or on message boards like this one.)

 

So I guess it is clear then that the original Rand (i.e., Rand in his original body) is the father of Aviendha's four children.

[jack of shadows]

@paul h,

yes,it certainly seems so, i.e. the original rand is the father of aviendha's four children.

from winter heart chapter 12:" aviendha would have rand's babies too.four of them at once!

something was odd about that though.the babies would be healthy,but still something odd."

i did try to understand the oddness in aviendha's babies,but i couldn't figure it out,although

it is true that for the first time in thousand of years both parents are channelers,the same can

be said about elayne children,and there is nothing odd about them,not according to min anyway.

[Paul H]

@paul h,

yes,it certainly seems so, i.e. the original rand is the father of aviendha's four children.

from winter heart chapter 12:" aviendha would have rand's babies too.four of them at once!

something was odd about that though.the babies would be healthy,but still something odd."

i did try to understand the oddness in aviendha's babies,but i couldn't figure it out,although

it is true that for the first time in thousand of years both parents are channelers,the same can

be said about elayne children,and there is nothing odd about them,not according to min anyway.

 

I think maybe the "something odd" is the fact that at least one of the children holds the One Power constantly, without ever having to embrace the source and then later let it go.  I think that Aviendha saw this in her vision of the future in Rhuidean.

[jack of shadows]

@paul h,

"the fact that at least one of the children holds the one power constantly,

without having to embrace the source and then later let it go".

yes,it's the only plausible explanation i can think of too.

but i do wonder how many(if any) of the possible futures aviendha saw in rhuidean

are set in stone.

from her last flashforward(the first one chronologically) we do have:"the aiel are not

bound by the dragon peace",and a little later we also have:"the dragon asked others

for peace,alalved replied,he excluded the aiel",and lastly we do have ronam(rhuarc's son)

words:"my father called rand al thor a clever man and a great leader,but one who did not

know what to do with the aiel".

well,aviendha and rand did change all that in the field of merrilor meeting when he included

the aiel in the dragon peace,made the six clans future enforcers of randland and explained

the clans chiefs and wise women the need to act together(possibly laying the foundation

for a new aiel nation).

so,is aviendha's viewing regarding her children still valid?

[Paul H]

@paul h,

"the fact that at least one of the children holds the one power constantly,

without having to embrace the source and then later let it go".

yes,it's the only plausible explanation i can think of too.

but i do wonder how many(if any) of the possible futures aviendha saw in rhuidean

are set in stone.

from her last flashforward(the first one chronologically) we do have:"the aiel are not

bound by the dragon peace",and a little later we also have:"the dragon asked others

for peace,alalved replied,he excluded the aiel",and lastly we do have ronam(rhuarc's son)

words:"my father called rand al thor a clever man and a great leader,but one who did not

know what to do with the aiel".

well,aviendha and rand did change all that in the field of merrilor meeting when he included

the aiel in the dragon peace,made the six clans future enforcers of randland and explained

the clans chiefs and wise women the need to act together(possibly laying the foundation

for a new aiel nation).

so,is aviendha's viewing regarding her children still valid?

 

It's a good question, and one that I guess we can't ever have a definite answer to, unless there is more information in RJ's notes that might be revealed at some point.  My take is that the change regarding the Dragon's Peace would not change the One Power abilities of Aviendha's children as seen in the viewing, so that what she saw regarding the abilities of her children will still come to pass.  But we don't even know the exact nature of the viewing that Aviendha had -- i.e., whether what she saw was a probable future, or a possible future, or whatever.  So I guess all we can do is speculate.

[jack of shadows]

@paul h,

it is true,we do speculate a lot in this forum,and it's because a memory of light

left so many questions unanswered.

and sometimes,these(big)loose ends cause even bigger distractions lol.

[jedman67]

Also remember that Min had a vision of Siuan naked, but there was something 'odd' about the viewing. I don't know if its been confirmed, but the only plausible explanation of the 'odd'ness is that Siuan was stilled, and Min did not know how to interpret that aspect.

Add that to what we know of aviendhas vision, that her quadruplets would be born holding OP, and you can say thats what was unusual about Min's viewing of Aviendhas kids.

[mbuehner]

Also remember that Min had a vision of Siuan naked, but there was something 'odd' about the viewing. I don't know if its been confirmed, but the only plausible explanation of the 'odd'ness is that Siuan was stilled, and Min did not know how to interpret that aspect.

 

Or perhaps that she was stilled but became the first woman ever healed of stilling.

[jack of shadows]

@jedman67,

"also remember that min had a vision of siuan naked,but there was somthing

odd about the viewing."

when did that happen?

was it before or after eliada's coup?

it's completely unlike me to forget a naked woman lol,and former amyrlin at that.