Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[dreadlord]

Wait, do people think the "Rand wasn't really Jesus-Rand he was himself all along it was just an Aes Sedai front" thing was a retcon?

 

Yes, a few of us, think something along those lines.

 

Mileage may vary of course.

[Terez]

This and this were both while he was working on the book, so it's a somewhat reasonable assumption to make.

[Agitel]

 

Wait, do people think the "Rand wasn't really Jesus-Rand he was himself all along it was just an Aes Sedai front" thing was a retcon?

 

Yes, a few of us, think something along those lines.

 

Mileage may vary of course.

 

I just can't agree with that line of reasoning. If we'd had a lot of Rand POVs where he was completely zen in ToM I'd agree, but we got not one POV from him, not until the epilogue. That screams an intentional mystery around his state of mind. It fits. I wish people wouldn't just default to cynicism. The second some people heard that time flowed differently at Shayol Ghul there were groans because they thought Sanderson was going to bandaid his ToM timeline issues with it.

[Agitel]

This and this were both while he was working on the book, so it's a somewhat reasonable assumption to make.

 

The second part reads more like a hint that it will be included or an Aes Sedai answer than anything that supports what you're saying.

 

Regardless, it's pretty clear that Rand's state-of-mind was intentionally left a big mystery during ToM. I don't see the Aes Sedai front thing being a retcon. Maybe it received a few extra lines of clarification in that scene with Moiraine because of fan reaction.

 

EDIT: Dammit, I didn't mean to make a second post for this. I wanted to edit it in. Though copying and pasting quotes doesn't seem to work for me...

[nizoj]

 

 

 

 

 

That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.

Maybe I read this wrong, but I took Moridin claiming the heartbeat thing as him refusing to believe Rand was special. Rand wasn't even holding the source at that point was he? Did y'all discuss this already?

 

It was him holding the one power, and the fact that the (darkfriends) couldnt look at him while doing it.  

I thought that the darkfriends going crazy/Rand being able to identify them was similar to the food not spoiling around him and the sun shining through the clouds.  Rand explained at some point that his physical presence pushed back at the dark one.  It made a ton of sense to me that it would also cause 'issues' for servants of the shadow near him.

[kaggzz]

Why wouldn't Rand's being able to see something different in the eyes of darkfriends be any different from being able to see something off with those forcably turned?  Maybe it is something small- something LTT figured out in the last age?

 

I've often thought that Rand wouldn't be more powerful after his visit to dragonmount- but he would have the added knowledge of LTT unfiltered.  He would know more of HOW to use his power.

 

I just finished the final book and joined the forum, so please rip my idea to meaty bits.

 

Anyone have any idea why the heroes of the horn seem to be able to fight on their own now and not be tied to Rand's battle (or the fight of the other mortals on the side of the light), as they were at Falme?  A part of me thinks there's a good reason for it that might help answer some other questions.

 

I was also a little confused by one thing at the end.  Did Rand make Dragonmount and SG the same place in the end?  What happens to the Blight and what remaining shadowspawn there is now that the bore is sealed?  With Lan crowned and everybody not running for the exits after the book, it seems to imply that the Blight is gone, but it doesn't really say it.

[Vardar]

 

Oh and last quick question, I'm a real sucker for plot holes, but unless I'm mistaken, you can't stop a gateway from opening without an terangreal right? So, I'm still shocked we never see gateways used as a weapon, after Demandred uses it to kill some of Grandeal's pets (Was it him?). Seems like an easy way of taking out channelers would be chopping off their heads... 

 

Just a thought, 

Samm Used it to slice her pets in half by opening it where they stood.  Why use gateways to kill someone when they so openly use balefire and have other nasty means to kill people.  Using gateways to kill probably at the time seemed a a minor way to kill.  As has been stated in the book the forsaken were often amazed how the people of this age found ways to use the power they never thought of or could do.  Healing someone who had been stilled, warder bond, etc... they couldn't do back in the age of legends. 

Easy way to kill demanded when he can slice all your weaves and burn you where you stand. Instead of sending swordsman in, open a gateway by the time he senses it, he's sliced in half.

[Bellarific]

 

 

Oh and last quick question, I'm a real sucker for plot holes, but unless I'm mistaken, you can't stop a gateway from opening without an terangreal right? So, I'm still shocked we never see gateways used as a weapon, after Demandred uses it to kill some of Grandeal's pets (Was it him?). Seems like an easy way of taking out channelers would be chopping off their heads... 

 

Just a thought, 

Samm Used it to slice her pets in half by opening it where they stood.  Why use gateways to kill someone when they so openly use balefire and have other nasty means to kill people.  Using gateways to kill probably at the time seemed a a minor way to kill.  As has been stated in the book the forsaken were often amazed how the people of this age found ways to use the power they never thought of or could do.  Healing someone who had been stilled, warder bond, etc... they couldn't do back in the age of legends. 

Easy way to kill demanded when he can slice all your weaves and burn you where you stand. Instead of sending swordsman in, open a gateway by the time he senses it, he's sliced in half.

Or, after all the foreshadowing of how even the most powerful of channelers can be felled by a single arrow... why not fell the strongest channelor this way? While Dem's power raging and calling LT out, just send Tam Al'Thor to shoot him. Or open a gateway from directly above and drop one out.

[Vardar]

Exactly Bell. Hell drop some grenades on people. Although I'm honestly not sure how Demandred didn't cause more damage.

[mbuehner]

And remember when people used to use wards to micro-locate channeling in their vicinity and then nuke that spot? Apparently that went away too.

[Terez]

 

This and this were both while he was working on the book, so it's a somewhat reasonable assumption to make.

The second part reads more like a hint that it will be included or an Aes Sedai answer than anything that supports what you're saying.

 

I said it was 'somewhat reasonable'; I didn't say it was intuitively obvious, nor did I say I agreed with it.

 

EDIT: Dammit, I didn't mean to make a second post for this. I wanted to edit it in. Though copying and pasting quotes doesn't seem to work for me...

 

You have to be quick. At least, mine lags a bit and there's a second where you can copy the code after you click the quote/post button, but then it interprets the code, and anything you copy will just show up as an HTML-like blockquote.

[Terez]

And remember when people used to use wards to micro-locate channeling in their vicinity and then nuke that spot? Apparently that went away too.

 

You might say that's how Romanda bit it. Cadsuane had a better perimeter plan at the Cleansing that helped her to target people, but to be fair it wasn't really explained and there were a few questions raised as to the logistics of it, with her own people out there.

[kaggzz]

And remember when people used to use wards to micro-locate channeling in their vicinity and then nuke that spot? Apparently that went away too.

Did we see any of Non-Forsaken use that power?  Also with so many friendly channelers around, would that sort of a ward been of any use?  Hell, with so many channelers around would that be of any use?  You have all but the Yellows on the field, so assume about 600-750 AS, 250-300 AM, +/- 1k Damme, who knows how many Kin and possibly others who hid the ability to channel and that's just on the side of the light!  We know that the ward to sense someone channeling tells you where, but not who or what, there are wards to tell if something specific is woven (detect gateways) but I can't see a ward like that being of any tactical good.

[Terez]

 

And remember when people used to use wards to micro-locate channeling in their vicinity and then nuke that spot? Apparently that went away too.

Did we see any of Non-Forsaken use that power?

 

The wards? Rand used them (see TFOH "Jangai Pass" among others) and also knew how to counter them (see ACOS "A Crown of Swords").

[kaggzz]

ah thanks!  But Rand probably knew them via LTT or Asmo's teachings.  I don't imagine the wards were well known in the Third age then- and who is to say that Demandred wasn't using them to keep track of the enemy channelers durring the battle?  We know Mat had the gateways high up in the air and Demo was tracking via the TP to control birds, but why not use a ward to keep an eye on the far side of the battlefield?  Mat wasn't fighting for most of the Last Battle, giving him the ability to lead the forces of the Light.  Demandred was fighting part of the time- he has three duels and seems to spend a lot of time acting as heavy artillery against the Andorian forces.  If he had to watch that side of the battlefield with his birds- why not keep track of the other with a ward?  if his Sharan channelers could keep the WT forces matched on the far slope, he could clear the physical threat before turning his power against the Light's channelers.  Not to mention he had Taim to throw at them once the river was damned.

[mbuehner]

I was thinking more of Demandred regarding the wards. If he had his huge circle he should be the only one channeling, he should have burned down Logain instantly.

[kaggzz]

But he wasn't the only one in his huge circle- if he was really in a full circle to begin with.  We know the AS side of the fight was all OP v OP, with group of casters going at eachother.  It could be the rod he carried and his own immense power made it seem like he had a full circle to those who never felt the power of a full circle.  Remember that rod with the cup was suppose to be more powerful then anything other then the Chodan Kai.

[mbuehner]

Fair enough.

 

New subject- we never found out how the Ways became viable for The Shadow. I'm thinking we might actually get an answer for this one. My theory is The Black Wind has been following Rand around from waygate to waygate instead of roaming randomly. If thats the case, all Rand needed to do was come hang out near Caemlyn during the early days of the LB and see the reinforcements to the Caemlyn trolloc army destroyed before they got out of the waygate.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Recognizing, at this/that point, that what happened with the Ways wouldn't be integral to any of the happenings in AmoL...

...Yeah, I wonder what(might have) happened with the Ways. Not in an "Omg ugh why weren't the Ways expounded upon!" kind of way, but way more from the curiosity aspect.
 

 

New subject- we never found out how the Ways became viable for The Shadow.

Maybe the trick was getting Trollocs to all croon, This Is How We Do It, by Montel Jordan, and that's how the Ways became viable... .. ... *snortlaugh

[mbuehner]

Recognizing, at this/that point, that what happened with the Ways wouldn't be integral to any of the happenings in AmoL...

 

...Yeah, I wonder what(might have) happened with the Ways. Not in an "Omg ugh why weren't the Ways expounded upon!" kind of way, but way more from the curiosity aspect.

 

 

New subject- we never found out how the Ways became viable for The Shadow.

 

Maybe the trick was getting Trollocs to all croon, This Is How We Do It, by Montel Jordan, and that's how the Ways became viable... .. ... *snortlaugh

Only works on Friday Nights.

[Guest TheDragonRetired]

Question...

 

Did anyone else have the following dialogue running through their mind while reading page 770?

 

"Oh My God, They Killed Bela!"

 

"You bastards!"

[MountaineerWV]

Did I miss the whole "this is why horn always was connected to Illian"? Can't seem to recall seeing it. 

I've always been curious as to why Illian was connected to the Horn. The best I can come up with is that if Illian was not the nation to call the Great Hunt for the Horn, then Faile would never have crossed paths with Perrin. Illian was not important in the Horn arc, but was important setting up a meeting point between those two.

[peasant007]

Recognizing, at this/that point, that what happened with the Ways wouldn't be integral to any of the happenings in AmoL...

 

...Yeah, I wonder what(might have) happened with the Ways. Not in an "Omg ugh why weren't the Ways expounded upon!" kind of way, but way more from the curiosity aspect.

 

 

New subject- we never found out how the Ways became viable for The Shadow.

 

Maybe the trick was getting Trollocs to all croon, This Is How We Do It, by Montel Jordan, and that's how the Ways became viable... .. ... *snortlaugh

 

Oh God, when they started talking about the Ways all I could think to myself was, "Please, please, PLEASE don't go into the Ways.  I don't need another description of the narrow paths, sameness of light, and having the characters be all jittery as they wait for The Black Wind.  Please don't."  So I was kind of glad that all mention of The Ways was dropped early on in the book.

[wintermute]

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you?

 

Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right?

 

I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

[Votan]

Isn't it possible the vision of Rand in the boat with his harem still true.. that's his eventual real death?