Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[Surreall]

I still cannot get my head round the body swap. Any chance someone could explain how he swapped to Moridins body?

[wackydavo]

I still cannot get my head round the body swap. Any chance someone could explain how he swapped to Moridins body?

 

I think either of the following happened: either (a) Rand and Moridin merged when Rand fixed the bore or (b) sometime after the bore fix either Nynaeve or Alivia (or Nakomi) caused the switch. Someone else in this thread, can't remember who mentioned that Rand felt closer to Moridin whenever he channeled. It's been a while since I read the earlier books, so I can't speak to this but it at least seems very plausible. 

 

I posted the following in the "Rand's Arc" thread regarding scenario (b): 

Here are my thoughts: When Rand is carrying "the body" it says he is walking on "his blood." This hints that he was still in the wounded body the bled down and up the path.  Also it is strongly suggested that the cave collapses on at least part of him, which would have done more damage to the old body. It also doesn't mention that he feels an absence of wounds, which is the first thing he notices when he wakes up in the tent in the new body. Additionally in this scene (walking out of the cave) he notes that he asked the wrong question to the Aelfin--one question of which we know precisely was how to win the last battle and live himself. But the nature of his realization--that destroying the DO would have destroyed mankind's agency--indicates that the question he was referring to relates to saving the world. Still, it is not that far off to think that he also may have realized how to save his own life as well, but I think this is probably implausible given that he just blacked out after making the other realization.

 

Also, we know that at some point there was a decision among Rand, Avi, Min, & Elayne that his surviving would be kept a secret. This is implied by Avi's statement at the funeral pyre to the effect that they would work to keep the fact secret (she essentially confirms that she knows he will live, that the funeral pyre is a sham, and that they needed to keep these facts secret). We're given almost no indication of the reasoning behind this, but that there was a secret meeting cannot be doubted because Rand knew that Alivia had brought him a horse, money, and his sword upon waking up and it is revealed that he is in his new body. It is also suggested that Alivia used Nynaeve's ter'angreal to try and heal Rand's body (the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it was Alivia, but maybe Nynaeve herself). It would be plausible for Rand or Moiraine or Nynaeve to have instructed the healer on how to make the body or soul switch as a method of healing. If it was Nynaeve that did the soul switch, it would also be a sort of fulfillment of her doing three miracles: healing stilling, cleansing the source, bringing someone back from the dead.  Actually I don't think it could have been Rand to instruct on the soul switch because he seemed genuinely surprised to find himself in Moridin's body at the end. Although, his first thought is to see a mirror, which suggest that he had prior knowledge of the switch. Also, the fact that Rand was surprised to be in Moridin's body--or at least experiencing it for the first time--but also not being surprised to know that Alivia dropped off the horse, gold, and sword, seems to indicate that the body switch happened after the decision to keep his death a secret was made--or at least after he emerged from the cave.

 

Finally, there is almost no suggestion that Rand did anything in his battle with the DO other than seize control of Moridin's power through Callandor that would have caused the body switch before he left the cave. I am not familiar with all the writings on Callandor to know whether it would be plausible to suggest that Callandor could have caused the switch, but there's no real suggestion of it that I picked up on in the final pages of aMoL. The last thing Rand did was remake the or reseal the bore and no hints on any body-switching that occurred at that time. On the other hand, it probably would have been very difficult (but not impossible) for Rand's old body with the missing hand to carry Moridin's body up to the cave entrance.

 

It's too bad we weren't given more detail on this. It would have been cool to know how and when it happened.  I think if there is going to be a hint of what happened, it will be in researching the effects of the ter'angreal that are mentioned in the epilogue that were used to "heal" Rand.

[Hack n Slash]

So, this is was, WAY post aMoL, but what are the theories on the other 3 ages we know almost nothing about. The First Age is suspected to be our time now, then The Age of Legends is the Second Age, The Post-Breaking, during which the books take place is the Third Age, and the  Fourth Age begins after Tarmon Gaidon, it seems likely to be a New Age of Legends. My ideas for the last 3 (there are supposed to be 7, as there are 7 spokes on the WoT) are:

 

5th: Another Post -breaking Era, similar to the 3rd age

6th: An era when the world has fallen to the Shadow, the mirror to the 4th age...Ishamael claimed the Shadow wins sometimes, it seems quite possible, even likely, that one of the 7 ages would be an age of shadow ascendant...a slow descent into entropy and the death of all living things.

7th: An age that begins with almost all life extinguished, and the pattern is created anew

[JSSheridan]

WT and BT: The AS will not accept AM as equals until they all swear on the Oath Rod.

 

BT: In contrast to the WT and rather than being a cloisered order, the BT is only used more for education, training, and administration, while the full AM go out into the nations and are closer to the common people. They practice their trades, start families, test other young men for potential to channel, and offer power related boons like healing and traveling to the people in exchange for offerings to the BT.

 

Aiel: The bleakness that's mentioned as affecting many Aiel continues going forward. Many children decide never to take up a weapon, and after many generations, the number of warriors declines so that there are not enough to enforce the Dragon's Peace.

[drew082]

Perhaps I missed something, but was it ever officially revealed who killed Asmodean? That still bothers me!!

[jjstraka34]

Perhaps I missed something, but was it ever officially revealed who killed Asmodean? That still bothers me!!

 

Graendal, and contrary to what Jordan always said, it was never that obvious, more like process of elimination. But yeah, Shaidar Haran confirmed it at the end of TOM when he chastised her for causing the death of 3 Forsaken (Messana, Ar'angar, Asmodean). 

[MountaineerWV]

Of how much use is Graendal, or as I prefer to call her Grundle, now that she's compelled herself to be an idiot? Will the Wise Ones or AS be able to extract knowledge from her?

 

Same with Moggy. Will the Seanchan realize what they have in their grasp? I could see the Spider continuing to sow chaos of some sort, even now she is collared.

[Suttree]

Of how much use is Graendal, or as I prefer to call her Grundle,

She has been dubbed the Graeffalump.

[jjstraka34]

I initially thought that the Shadow was going into this fight with the oddest collection of surviving Forsaken I could have imagined, but it worked out pretty well. The males were obviously all cleared out to give Demandred a big stage, and he certainly got that. Moridin was the only one who understood what a Dark One victory meant and was handled perfectly. And the 3 girls all got what they deserved in one way or another. 

[Noonesperfect]

Considering the DO moved souls into new bodies all the time, and Rand seemed to understand all about the DO and how he operated after their last battle, it seems likely Rand used the knowledge he gained from the DO to make the body switch. Lanfear, Ishmael and many of the other Forsaken were body shifted - why are we all so surprised to see Rand follow the same path?

[drew082]

 

 

Perhaps I missed something, but was it ever officially revealed who killed Asmodean? That still bothers me!!

Graendal, and contrary to what Jordan always said, it was never that obvious, more like process of elimination. But yeah, Shaidar Haran confirmed it at the end of TOM when he chastised her for causing the death of 3 Forsaken (Messana, Ar'angar, Asmodean).

I thought about that, but I wanted a more definitive answer. I find it hard to believe Graendal would have been punished for killing Asmodean after he joined up with Rand. Especially with his bond to the Dark One being severed. It's not like the shadow to punish for eliminating anyone who is considered weak in their eyes, on top of being manipulated and is freely giving information to the enemy. That being said, I'm not sure who the 3rd forsaken killed would be, other than Asmodean... It all just doesn't fit in my eyes.

[Stig Johansen]

Grendal`s weave just backfired, though. We don`t know if it could be undone, or if its permanent.

[Agitel]

I still cannot get my head round the body swap. Any chance someone could explain how he swapped to Moridins body?

 

I assumed it was through Callandor, allowing him to seize control of him.

[realspkr]

@ Magmaros

 

TOM pg 812

 

In the Chapter The One Left Behind

Seriously, that's a big unnoticed thing? A curious definition of big...

[realspkr]

I still cannot get my head round the body swap. Any chance someone could explain how he swapped to Moridins body?

For all the theories I've read about this, I chalk it up to an Ex (la) Machina mechanic. It's a lazy way to get around something difficult to explain. The common one is "and then they woke up realizing it was just a dream!" (entendre intended...)

[fertileground]

I wish they had not put in the last bit about him generating fire by thought.Either they should have burned him out and allowed him to live his life like a normal man or given him back his ability to channel(not sure how he lost it ayway,the burned out theory seems to have holes all over it as he was in a link). But this,a man who controls reality who is in the real world (Rand being the man he is will eventually come back to his consorts like to know how he keeps tht a secret and will want to see his children etc) is very weak.

 

Easiest would have been to kill him off.Rand made his peace with that long back.

 

I think the burning out happened to Moridin, since he was the one wielding the sa-angreal when they were channeling all three powers at once. I know it has been mentioned in the past that channeling ability is related to the soul and not the body, but this is what makes sense to me. It could be that the body swap had something to do with it, or perhaps Moridin could not channel unless he had access to the TP. That's the best I can make of it.

[Sabio]

 

I still cannot get my head round the body swap. Any chance someone could explain how he swapped to Moridins body?

 

I think either of the following happened: either (a) Rand and Moridin merged when Rand fixed the bore or (b) sometime after the bore fix either Nynaeve or Alivia (or Nakomi) caused the switch. Someone else in this thread, can't remember who mentioned that Rand felt closer to Moridin whenever he channeled. It's been a while since I read the earlier books, so I can't speak to this but it at least seems very plausible. 

 

I posted the following in the "Rand's Arc" thread regarding scenario (b): 

Here are my thoughts: When Rand is carrying "the body" it says he is walking on "his blood." This hints that he was still in the wounded body the bled down and up the path.  Also it is strongly suggested that the cave collapses on at least part of him, which would have done more damage to the old body. It also doesn't mention that he feels an absence of wounds, which is the first thing he notices when he wakes up in the tent in the new body. Additionally in this scene (walking out of the cave) he notes that he asked the wrong question to the Aelfin--one question of which we know precisely was how to win the last battle and live himself. But the nature of his realization--that destroying the DO would have destroyed mankind's agency--indicates that the question he was referring to relates to saving the world. Still, it is not that far off to think that he also may have realized how to save his own life as well, but I think this is probably implausible given that he just blacked out after making the other realization.

 

Also, we know that at some point there was a decision among Rand, Avi, Min, & Elayne that his surviving would be kept a secret. This is implied by Avi's statement at the funeral pyre to the effect that they would work to keep the fact secret (she essentially confirms that she knows he will live, that the funeral pyre is a sham, and that they needed to keep these facts secret). We're given almost no indication of the reasoning behind this, but that there was a secret meeting cannot be doubted because Rand knew that Alivia had brought him a horse, money, and his sword upon waking up and it is revealed that he is in his new body. It is also suggested that Alivia used Nynaeve's ter'angreal to try and heal Rand's body (the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it was Alivia, but maybe Nynaeve herself). It would be plausible for Rand or Moiraine or Nynaeve to have instructed the healer on how to make the body or soul switch as a method of healing. If it was Nynaeve that did the soul switch, it would also be a sort of fulfillment of her doing three miracles: healing stilling, cleansing the source, bringing someone back from the dead.  Actually I don't think it could have been Rand to instruct on the soul switch because he seemed genuinely surprised to find himself in Moridin's body at the end. Although, his first thought is to see a mirror, which suggest that he had prior knowledge of the switch. Also, the fact that Rand was surprised to be in Moridin's body--or at least experiencing it for the first time--but also not being surprised to know that Alivia dropped off the horse, gold, and sword, seems to indicate that the body switch happened after the decision to keep his death a secret was made--or at least after he emerged from the cave.

 

Finally, there is almost no suggestion that Rand did anything in his battle with the DO other than seize control of Moridin's power through Callandor that would have caused the body switch before he left the cave. I am not familiar with all the writings on Callandor to know whether it would be plausible to suggest that Callandor could have caused the switch, but there's no real suggestion of it that I picked up on in the final pages of aMoL. The last thing Rand did was remake the or reseal the bore and no hints on any body-switching that occurred at that time. On the other hand, it probably would have been very difficult (but not impossible) for Rand's old body with the missing hand to carry Moridin's body up to the cave entrance.

 

It's too bad we weren't given more detail on this. It would have been cool to know how and when it happened.  I think if there is going to be a hint of what happened, it will be in researching the effects of the ter'angreal that are mentioned in the epilogue that were used to "heal" Rand.

Maybe it is done it must be the same way the DO stuffs souls in other bodies.  I am also wondering if the Pevra/Androl melding together moment was sort of a hint how it could happen.  It is possible that when Moridin grabbed callandor that LTT knew the way to force a soul into or out of a body. 

[Sabio]

 

 

 

Perhaps I missed something, but was it ever officially revealed who killed Asmodean? That still bothers me!!

Graendal, and contrary to what Jordan always said, it was never that obvious, more like process of elimination. But yeah, Shaidar Haran confirmed it at the end of TOM when he chastised her for causing the death of 3 Forsaken (Messana, Ar'angar, Asmodean).

I thought about that, but I wanted a more definitive answer. I find it hard to believe Graendal would have been punished for killing Asmodean after he joined up with Rand. Especially with his bond to the Dark One being severed. It's not like the shadow to punish for eliminating anyone who is considered weak in their eyes, on top of being manipulated and is freely giving information to the enemy. That being said, I'm not sure who the 3rd forsaken killed would be, other than Asmodean... It all just doesn't fit in my eyes.

She wasn't necessarliy punished for Asmo, but Moridin made a comment after she caused Ar'angar death that she was starting to make it a habit.  Her screw up that cost Messana was just the final straw.  The DO is the type to punish you for the same thing he earlier rewarded you for.  Messana is the third, she might not of died but she is as good as dead since she has the mind of a child now.  They never openly said "Forsaken X" killed Asmo, but it was the subtle hints like her pov with Moridin.

[Sabio]

Considering the DO moved souls into new bodies all the time, and Rand seemed to understand all about the DO and how he operated after their last battle, it seems likely Rand used the knowledge he gained from the DO to make the body switch. Lanfear, Ishmael and many of the other Forsaken were body shifted - why are we all so surprised to see Rand follow the same path?

There was a slight difference though ,the DO kills you so he can find your soul and then stuff it in another body.  Rand somehow swapped souls and stuffed Moridin in the dieing body. The problem is Rand clearly had thought about this in advance because he had all his gear an stuff waiting for him in the tent.  So he set Alvira to doing this before the last battle, so any knowledge he gained when he learned all the DO' secrets during the fight he wouldn't of been able to use.  All of his gift giving and such was just a smoke screen to make people think he was preparing to die.

[garryturk]

Same with Moggy. Will the Seanchan realize what they have in their grasp? I could see the Spider continuing to sow chaos of some sort, even now she is collared.

Or what will they make of her mind trap, that will be an interesting find for them.  Actually I wonder if the mind trap still works since it seemed so tied to the DOs power.

[wintermute]

I wish they had not put in the last bit about him generating fire by thought.Either they should have burned him out and allowed him to live his life like a normal man or given him back his ability to channel(not sure how he lost it ayway,the burned out theory seems to have holes all over it as he was in a link). But this,a man who controls reality who is in the real world (Rand being the man he is will eventually come back to his consorts like to know how he keeps tht a secret and will want to see his children etc) is very weak.

 

I like it myself. Seems to hint that Rand has become the Creator. Notice he was speaking in ALL CAPS with the DO towards the end.

 

I like to think that the present post-LB world is one created by Rand's vision. And since he created it, he's the "Creator" by definition. If you accept this interpretation, then it becomes clear how he can dominate the DO so easily at the end.

[Drawwod]

 

 

I keep thinking of Aviendha's vision of her children's future. Now that it was changed here are things about Rand's and her children that shouldn't happen. 1) Because Avienda returned at least a night before Last Battle she insisted on sleeping with Rand before the body swap, so chances are her children were conceived then and there, so that "weird" thing about them being twins and two looking like Aiel (based on their mother's genes) and two looking dark (based on Moridin's body genes that Rand has after Last Battle) should not happen. All 4 of them should look like Aiel since Rand's original body before Last Battle had looks of an Aiel. 2) Because their conception happened before Last Battle and before Rand attained that weird reality warp ability their channeling powers should develop normally, they might be very strong since both of their parents are extremely powerful channelers but they shouldn't be able to channel till they reach 18 (or whatever Randland age for starting to channel is)

We don't know the children are conceived there though.

Also we have to remember that Rands only half Aiel so he could have dark haired kids

[Agitel]

 

 

 

I keep thinking of Aviendha's vision of her children's future. Now that it was changed here are things about Rand's and her children that shouldn't happen. 1) Because Avienda returned at least a night before Last Battle she insisted on sleeping with Rand before the body swap, so chances are her children were conceived then and there, so that "weird" thing about them being twins and two looking like Aiel (based on their mother's genes) and two looking dark (based on Moridin's body genes that Rand has after Last Battle) should not happen. All 4 of them should look like Aiel since Rand's original body before Last Battle had looks of an Aiel. 2) Because their conception happened before Last Battle and before Rand attained that weird reality warp ability their channeling powers should develop normally, they might be very strong since both of their parents are extremely powerful channelers but they shouldn't be able to channel till they reach 18 (or whatever Randland age for starting to channel is)

We don't know the children are conceived there though.

Also we have to remember that Rands only half Aiel so he could have dark haired kids

 

His mother had golden hair. I'm not sure we know what color hair his father had, but I'm guessing it's where Rand got the red.

[MountaineerWV]

 

 

Same with Moggy. Will the Seanchan realize what they have in their grasp? I could see the Spider continuing to sow chaos of some sort, even now she is collared.

Or what will they make of her mind trap, that will be an interesting find for them.  Actually I wonder if the mind trap still works since it seemed so tied to the DOs power.

 

 

 

I was thinking that last night. Is it still functional? The soul trap can only be done in the Pit near the presence of the DO. But if it is not functional...what happened? Moggy has her soul back?

 

The only indirect evidence that may answer this is shadowspawn. Did they drop dead when the DO was sealed away?

[Craig Jarvis]

All right a couple of things people have been tossing stuff out there...

 

Avienda knows of the True Power because of the way back machine, and her being a channeler would clearly understand what was being talked about.

 

I don't believe releasing the bond requires channeling.  Also Alanna's mind was scrambled ala Jain Farstrider's mind after Ishydin messed with him.

 

Perrin would have tried to save his wife were it not for slayer.  He would not have had to go back and get Gaul and get pulled one more time to check on Rand in T'A'R.  And yes he would not have been strong enough in T'A'R were it not for Lord Luc.

 

Rand realized that Callandor was a TP Sa'Angreal once Rand held it after channeling the TP, it called to him sweetly.  Callendor was not made to have the flaws...  it was not made because of the prophesy.  The Prophesy was made because the tool was now available in the world.

 

The Sharans have been part of the series since book 1, they have been mentioned in every book since, there were Seanchan spies in Tear at an Inn and they reacted startlingly when they overheard another trader saying Silk comes from worms (this was a Jordan book KoD If I remember, not Sanderson).  Now if the Isle of Madmen were brought into it your statement would be valid, as they were never mentioned in the book proper.

 

People seem to think that Sanderson was "Making" stuff up.  STOP IT... at least read what Sanderson says... he was working directly from the notes, he only used scenes that were in the notes, if he had more room he would have put in more scenes from the notes, not made stuff up.  Doubtless Jordan would have done better, Sanderson says as much.  The END of the book was untouched except for mainly adding the fan names to it and smoothing the transition point.  I believe it was a 50 thousand word ending, relatively un touched.  YES, RAND WILLED HIS PIPE ALIGHT!  That is the way Jordan wanted it... HE TYPED IT THAT WAY.

 

People attack Sanderson for how he wrote Mat, but Sanderson had to get Mat to where he acted like he did in the last 50K words.  You really would have been pissed if he stayed the same till the last 50k words then BAM!!!  Funky PIMP Matt!!

 

Last word on Sanderson, Harriet is Pleased, and said only Jordan could have done it better.  I am satisfied, and wholly happy with the conclusion to the Iliad\Odyssey of our Melinnia.