Padan Fain's roll in Tarmon Gai'don?

[pacificflows]

Forgive me if there's already a place of discussion for this, I could not get the search function to work whatsoever.

 

What does everyone suspect Fain's main goal for marching towards Shadar Logoth is? Does he intend to side with the forces of the DO? In my mind, The Last Battle will be a three way battle between Rand, the DO, and (the most powerful by a long shot) Fain. 

 

His binding to the evil of Shadar Logoth is something I don't believe prophecy ever accounted for. It's a monkey wrench in the wheel of time, and could very well be the reason the world is seeing it's final conflict between Shai'tan and the Dragon. 

 

In dealing with Fain, I feel as though the forces of darkness are at even less of an advantage than Rand's people are. His waltzing into stage left with powers that could perhaps even compete with that of the Nae'blis is going to be a serious problem for the group of evil-doers that's just expecting another run-of-the-mill turning of the wheel.

 

What they're going to get, thanks to Fain, is going to be something a lot different than anyone expects...

[pacificflows]

lol can someone please correct the "Role" in my thread title? Can I do that?

 

*facepalm*

[Suttree]

His binding to the evil of Shadar Logoth is something I don't believe prophecy ever accounted for. It's a monkey wrench in the wheel of time, and could very well be the reason the world is seeing it's final conflict between Shai'tan and the Dragon. 

 

While Fain is unique to this age there is nothing to say there haven't been "wildcards" in the past. Further this is not "the" last battle, it is merely "a" last battle for this turning. The wheel is endless.

 

Some people may interpret this quote in different way but I think it's pretty conclusive.

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

SORILEA

This leads me to believe that this will not be the LAST BATTLE ever. It probably just comes about every turning of the Wheel, and since it has been such a long time ago, no one ever remembers it.

Especially when added with Herid Fel's and RJ's other quotes on the topic.

[Whizbang]

He hates the shadow as much as he hate Rand. I think he is indifferent to the "light", but he is an agent of chaos and so will spread suffering any chance he gets, but his focus is Rand and the Shadow. As such, the Shadow minions have more to fear from him than the Light siders, other than the fact he is trying to kill Rand, but what is one more super powerful evil guy trying to kill him, more or less? Fain will actively stop the Shadow from killing Rand. I think at least once Fain will step in and destroy a Forsaken or dreadlord to save Rand. He'll turn and attempt to kill Rand, of course, but this will give Rand a moment or two to get away or prepare defenses.

 

I think Fain will be left alive after the Last Battle. I think he will be the major evil that the world needs to face in the next age. Certain, sure, though, he won't be another gollum. RJ has stated that he won't go that route. So, although Fain might be important, he won't bite the ring off Rand's hand (so to speak) and fall into the pit of doom.

 

I think that Mat will be the one to confront and destroy/banish Fain, since Shadar Logoth was so influencial in who and what Mat has become. Plus, he's been warded against SL power more than anyone. I believe that those wards are still in effect. It won't stop a direct and powerful attack from Fain, but it will blunt it somewhat. Maybe a slash from the Dagger won't instantly kill Mat.

[pacificflows]

 

His binding to the evil of Shadar Logoth is something I don't believe prophecy ever accounted for. It's a monkey wrench in the wheel of time, and could very well be the reason the world is seeing it's final conflict between Shai'tan and the Dragon. 

While Fain is unique to this age there is nothing to say there haven't been "wildcards" in the past. Further this is not "the" last battle, it is merely "a" last battle for this turning. The wheel is endless.

I thought it was Rand's intention, (the very reason why the story we're getting comes from this turning of the wheel) to "kill" the Dark One. Thus ending the cycle. Perhaps Fain's involvement will be what makes this possible?

 

Also, who's to say every other "Last Battle," hasn't gone exactly to the script? This could be interesting.

[Suttree]

I thought it was Rand's intention, (the very reason why the story we're getting comes from this turning of the wheel) to "kill" the Dark One. Thus ending the cycle.

No that is not the case. He has contemplated it but certainly isn't a certain plan. In fact he has been far more focused on breaking then rebuilding the seals. With the dual nature of the Creator/DO and Manichean themes that run through the series I find it highly unlikely the DO should even be destroyed. Again we also have RJ's quote above which I believe is definitive. Add in Fel's advice...

 

LoC Ch.18

But I have been thinking. It can’t be the Last Battle. I don’t think it can. Maybe every Age has a Last Battle. Or most of them." Suddenly he frowned down his nose at the pipe in his teeth, and began rummaging across the table. "I have a tinderbox here somewhere."

"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

"Why? Maybe the next time they’ll drill through the patch. Maybe that’s how they could do it the last time – drill into what the Creator made, I mean – maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don’t know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more.

This passage almost identically mirrors RJ's own thoughts on how it all works.

 

Lastly we know how things have gone through the turnings. RJ explained it to us:

 

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

[Balefire to da face!]

 

I thought it was Rand's intention, (the very reason why the story we're getting comes from this turning of the wheel) to "kill" the Dark One. Thus ending the cycle.

No that is not the case. He has contemplated it but certainly isn't a certain plan. In fact he has been far more focused on breaking then rebuilding the seals. With the dual nature of the Creator/DO and Manichean themes that run through the series I find it highly unlikely the DO should even be destroyed. Again we also have RJ's quote above which I believe is definitive. Add in Fel's advice...

 

 

Well, I agree Rand is focused on breaking the seals, but where in particular have we ever seen Rand think or say he means to rebuild the seals? At the most, I think Rand has indicated he means to try something completely different then the LTT seals....a more perfect sealing with a different method.

 

As for killing the Dark One. I don't think it's a good idea, but the latest we have seen from Rand on the subject says that's exactly what he means to do, I believe.

 

While both clues are in TGS before VoG, and thus you could argue that anything Rand is thinking probably isn't a good idea anyway, his talk with Moridin in Chapter 15 is not exactly complete craziness on Rand's part. And like I said, I don't think it's a good idea on Rand's part, but it indicates where Rand's thought process is.

 

 

 

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

 

 

Did we see something in ToM that shows Rand is rethinking that plan? I don't recall, off hand.

 

As for RJ's quotes, I don't think the DO will be slain, but I don't think his quotes make it impossible, either. He says this turning of the wheel is nothing special, but that may just be a sneaky way of saying that the DO COULD have been slayed in other turnings, and yet wasn't. Not that it is impossible in any age.

[Suttree]

Yeah sorry I meant to say rebuilding the prison. Don't think we can take any thoughts from Dark Rand to show what his plan will be(and yes more than anything it's an indication of just how bad an idea it is). As for ToM we are purposely not placed in his head for things exactly like this. Last we heard from ToM he was hoping Min could find the answers in relation to fixing the prison.

[Hadilmir]

One does not simply kill "the Shadow in every man's mind" (Lanfear's words, ToM). Additionally, do not forget that the Dark One is not in some sort of prison.

If the Pattern were a boat (and it's not, regardless of what the Athan'miere may say) then the Dark One is the water below, the Bore is a leak, and the Seals are the layers of duct tape you put over the hole while looking for a better solution. There's a lot wrong with this analogy, but 'tis a whole lot better than using the word "prison".

[Morden]

Only time there will ever be a "Final Last Battle." is if the Dark One wins

[Suttree]

Only time there will ever be a "Final Last Battle." is if the Dark One wins

+1

[DSgamer64]

One does not simply kill "the Shadow in every man's mind" (Lanfear's words, ToM). Additionally, do not forget that the Dark One is not in some sort of prison.

If the Pattern were a boat (and it's not, regardless of what the Athan'miere may say) then the Dark One is the water below, the Bore is a leak, and the Seals are the layers of duct tape you put over the hole while looking for a better solution. There's a lot wrong with this analogy, but 'tis a whole lot better than using the word "prison".

 

Rand needs to use Flex Seal to lock away the Dark One. I have always kept in the back of my mind that little tidbit about the Pattern being the most unstable around the Bore, what if there is something that can be harnessed outside the Pattern itself to seal away or defeat the Dark One forever? Maybe even accessing the power of the Creator himself.

[Arran]

 

 

I thought it was Rand's intention, (the very reason why the story we're getting comes from this turning of the wheel) to "kill" the Dark One. Thus ending the cycle.

No that is not the case. He has contemplated it but certainly isn't a certain plan. In fact he has been far more focused on breaking then rebuilding the seals. With the dual nature of the Creator/DO and Manichean themes that run through the series I find it highly unlikely the DO should even be destroyed. Again we also have RJ's quote above which I believe is definitive. Add in Fel's advice...

 

 

Well, I agree Rand is focused on breaking the seals, but where in particular have we ever seen Rand think or say he means to rebuild the seals? At the most, I think Rand has indicated he means to try something completely different then the LTT seals....a more perfect sealing with a different method.

 

As for killing the Dark One. I don't think it's a good idea, but the latest we have seen from Rand on the subject says that's exactly what he means to do, I believe.

 

While both clues are in TGS before VoG, and thus you could argue that anything Rand is thinking probably isn't a good idea anyway, his talk with Moridin in Chapter 15 is not exactly complete craziness on Rand's part. And like I said, I don't think it's a good idea on Rand's part, but it indicates where Rand's thought process is.

 

 

 

>"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

 

 

Did we see something in ToM that shows Rand is rethinking that plan? I don't recall, off hand.

 

As for RJ's quotes, I don't think the DO will be slain, but I don't think his quotes make it impossible, either. He says this turning of the wheel is nothing special, but that may just be a sneaky way of saying that the DO COULD have been slayed in other turnings, and yet wasn't. Not that it is impossible in any age.

 

 

Although I believe that Rand will not totally kill the Dark One, and that he is more likely to just re-seal the Bore somehow, doesn't Moridin say something along the lines of "I don't think you understand the stupidity of that statement."? He never said killing the Dark One was impossible...

[Beidomon]

I don't care what RJ said, Fain = Gollum. He may not play the defining role in "destroying the ring" this time, but he'll play a role, and it won't be to the Shadow's liking. If I had to guess, his evil evilness will play some role in Rand sealing the Bore, kind of like how Rand used the same evil evilness to cleanse Saidin.

[Viperswhip]

@Arran, I think Moridin saying that what Rand said was stupid was meant to imply the impossibility of it. He has done way more research/contemplation in this area than Rand/LTT, it is probably why he turned to the Shadow.

[pskarnaq]

 Rand will use Fain- very literally- to re-seal the DO in a PRISON. Since we know the evil of SL and the evil of DO are like the north sides of two magnets, pushing against one another, I believe Rand will somehow use Fain as a "buffer"- sealing him in with the DO to keep the DO from even being able to touch the walls of the prison, let alone break them. On the bright side, we'll find out tomorrow whether or not I'm completely full of $h*t. Have a nice day!

[Agitel]

I think Fain will be left alive after the Last Battle. I think he will be the major evil that the world needs to face in the next age. Certain, sure, though, he won't be another gollum. RJ has stated that he won't go that route. So, although Fain might be important, he won't bite the ring off Rand's hand (so to speak) and fall into the pit of doom.

 

I don't think Fain will be part of the solution that tips the scales. I do think he will be like Gollum in the sense that he'll ambush Rand at Shayol Ghul. He's a wildcard, and that seems to have been where he was heading in ToM. Rather than save the world, perhaps he'll nearly doom it. Or maybe both at once.

[jodawng]

One does not simply kill "the Shadow in every man's mind" (Lanfear's words, ToM). Additionally, do not forget that the Dark One is not in some sort of prison.

If the Pattern were a boat (and it's not, regardless of what the Athan'miere may say) then the Dark One is the water below, the Bore is a leak, and the Seals are the layers of duct tape you put over the hole while looking for a better solution. There's a lot wrong with this analogy, but 'tis a whole lot better than using the word "prison".

 Rand will use Fain- very literally- to re-seal the DO in a PRISON. Since we know the evil of SL and the evil of DO are like the north sides of two magnets, pushing against one another, I believe Rand will somehow use Fain as a "buffer"- sealing him in with the DO to keep the DO from even being able to touch the walls of the prison, let alone break them. On the bright side, we'll find out tomorrow whether or not I'm completely full of $h*t. Have a nice day!

 

 

Two really interesting ideas!! Only downside is that I keep reading these interesting ideas in this forum instead of the books. ;) of course I'm 're reading #13 waiting for someone to decide they need to release the final ebook quicker...

[Mark Molzner]

 Rand will use Fain- very literally- to re-seal the DO in a PRISON. Since we know the evil of SL and the evil of DO are like the north sides of two magnets, pushing against one another, I believe Rand will somehow use Fain as a "buffer"- sealing him in with the DO to keep the DO from even being able to touch the walls of the prison, let alone break them. On the bright side, we'll find out tomorrow whether or not I'm completely full of $h*t. Have a nice day!

This is interesting.  Think of how the Saidar/Saidin funneled Mashadar.  Mashadar couldn't touch the OP, perhaps it can't touch the Dark One or TP either.  Forever sealed inside the prison, with the Dark One, Fain/Mashadar would possibly act as a repellant between the prison walls and Dark One?