Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[CTGryffindor]

The Voice in TEotW was the DO, not the creator.

 

Really need to stop pressing post over and over when done writing; my impatience is causing me trouble by creating double posts.........Sorry.

[Suttree]

RJ was very clear about the Creator taking no part whatsoever. Not sure how that plays into the voice but it certainly rules out Nakomi being some avatar.

[MarkDiLillo]

I feel like we really need an explanation of some kind for Nakomi.  Having her be an avatar of the creator fits it very well...and its about all that fits.  But it completely contradicts RJ.  Not only that, but the voice is also pretty much confirmed to be the creator.

 

I sense that maybe Nakomi is supposed to be a little spin of mystery on the end much like Rand's impossible pipe, but maybe Brandon threw in his own scene with her and Avi and that's messing with us.

 

edit:  maybe its not a Brandon addition though because if so it is unlikely that he would give her a name and flesh out those details for a special ending piece like that unless he was following the notes.

[Suttree]

I think it's 100% a Brandon addition. One pretty much added for the purpose of getting the fans to theorize at that. Petty pointless, not down with it all.

[CTGryffindor]

I feel like we really need an explanation of some kind for Nakomi.  Having her be an avatar of the creator fits it very well...and its about all that fits.  But it completely contradicts RJ.  Not only that, but the voice is also pretty much confirmed to be the creator.

 

I sense that maybe Nakomi is supposed to be a little spin of mystery on the end much like Rand's impossible pipe, but maybe Brandon threw in his own scene with her and Avi and that's messing with us.

 

edit:  maybe its not a Brandon addition though because if so it is unlikely that he would give her a name and flesh out those details for a special ending piece like that unless he was following the notes.

 

Robert Jordan's statements are extra-canonical.  He created the series, but only the canon controls.  We don't know what part of what he said in interviews he intended to be taken as true, what he intended to be true yet misleading, and what he lied about outright in an attempt to cover up overly telegraphed plot lines.  I used to put stock in RJ interviews, but RJ interviews that are contradicted by canon are no longer operative.  The books control because NO ONE knows if extra-canonical statements were intended to be taken as true when said or were overruled at a later time.

[KrisAnton]

Rand's relief at hearing The Voice meant that he was in the right place at the right time to defeat the DO.

 

Also, the DO calling Rand "Adversary" unnerved me because the word Satan means adversary.

[Suttree]

Robert Jordan's statements are extra-canonical.  He created the series, but only the canon controls.  We don't know what part of what he said in interviews he intended to be taken as true, what he intended to be true yet misleading, and what he lied about outright in an attempt to cover up overly telegraphed plot lines.  I used to put stock in RJ interviews, but RJ interviews that are contradicted by canon are no longer operative.  The books control because NO ONE knows if extra-canonical statements were intended to be taken as true when said or were overruled at a later time.

Some peoples claims that RJ gave "Aes Sedai" answers are hugely over blown. The reality is he gave straight forward answers or RAFOs the vast majority of the time. As for the rest I prefer not to call the man a liar and take him at his word that he never once changed things do to fans figuring something out. On this point however it was very cut and dry and there is nothing to say these examples of many statements he made have been contradicted in the text.

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

  Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Interview: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

Question

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

Interview: Aug 27th, 1999

Melbourne Film Festival - Raf Kaplan (Paraphrased)

Question

Someone asked him about the Creator.

Robert Jordan

He gave the distinct impression that he wouldn't even contemplate having the Creator step in, nor is there any real Creator worship, because there is no need, the effects of the Creator are all around the citizens of Randland.

 

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

  Robert Jordan

On the question on the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring (right—Galad is boring!—my comment), and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality.

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

Interview: Apr, 1997

SFX Magazine Interview (Paraphrased)

  Robert Jordan

Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

 

We have word of god.

[CTGryffindor]

Rand's relief at hearing The Voice meant that he was in the right place at the right time to defeat the DO.

 

 

The only similarities in the text between the Dark One's voice and The Voice was the use of capital letters, but then Rand's voice when talking to the Dark One was set forth in capital letters at the end too.  Surly no one would argue that Rand's Capital Letter Persona was the Dark One?  And why should we assume that Rand can't tell the difference between the Dark One and Not-the-Dark-One at the end?  I'd be willing to suffer the idea, if there was something, anything, to suggest as much.  But there isn't.  Not in the text, at least.

[CTGryffindor]

 

 

Robert Jordan's statements are extra-canonical. He created the series, but only the canon controls. We don't know what part of what he said in interviews he intended to be taken as true, what he intended to be true yet misleading, and what he lied about outright in an attempt to cover up overly telegraphed plot lines. I used to put stock in RJ interviews, but RJ interviews that are contradicted by canon are no longer operative. The books control because NO ONE knows if extra-canonical statements were intended to be taken as true when said or were overruled at a later time.

Some peoples claims that RJ gave "Aes Sedai" answers are hugely over blown. The reality is he gave straight forward answers or RAFOs the vast majority of the time. As for the rest I prefer not to call the man a liar and take him at his word that he never once changed things do to fans figuring something out. On this point however it was very cut and dry and there is nothing to say these examples of many statements he made have been contradicted in the text.

 

>>Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis

(Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

lockquote>

 

>Interview: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin

(Paraphrased)

Question

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

Int

erview: Aug 27th, 1999

Melbourne Film Festival - Raf Kaplan

(Paraphrased)

Question

Someone asked him about the Creator.

Robert Jordan

He gave the distinct impression that he wouldn't even contemplate having the Creator step in, nor is there any real Creator worship, because there is no need, the effects of the Creator are all around the citizens of Randland.

 

 

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren

(Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

On the question on the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring (right—Galad is boring!—my comment), and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality.

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

 

 

Interview: Apr, 1997

SFX Magazine Interview

(Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

Thirdly, in defeating the Dark One, the good guys can expect absolutely no help off the Creator, and no miracles will occur.

 

We have word of god.

 

 

 

 

An author can change his mind over the course of twenty years, as much as that might surprise......Only the text controls.

[KrisAnton]

Rand also acknowledges that he had heard The Voice before. The Voice is the DO.

[MarkDiLillo]

Sut, do you think the voice is the creator or the DO?

 

Seems like the only option is the creator to me.

[KrisAnton]

DO.

 

AMoL, Rand walks into the pit of doom, page 431.

 

"IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN."

 

The voice spoke with the inevitability of an earthquake, the words vibrating through him. More than sound in the air, far more, the words spoke as if from one soul to another. Moiraine gasped, eyes opening wide.

 

Rand was not surprised. He had heard this voice once before, and he realized that he had been expecting it. Hoping for it, at least.

Not only does Moiraine hear it, this also isn't the first time Rand has heard it. The Voice is the DO.

[MarkDiLillo]

The DO was not aware of his presence yet when the voice appeared.  He had the dagger and it mentions in the next Rand scene that the DO only now sensed his arrival.

[cutestskwerl]

I liked it for what it was: a form of closure.  

 

Sure, there are a lot of loose ends.  Part of me really wants to know exactly how every character's story ends, Return of the King style.  But part of me is happy that there is still room for speculation.  To me, the fun of a series like WoT is analyzing prophecies, interpreting clues, making bold predictions, and getting in long-winded quote arguments with other readers on Internet forums.  Like, the ol' switcheroo - that happened, like many had predicted (I was with that group).  But how and why?  Maybe I'm tired, but I don't remember the switch clearly happening on screen.  I like to think, for example, that Rand switched on purpose to grant Moridin oblivion.  So we can all sit around and dissect that for a few weeks after we're done crying about Bela. 

 

I wish there had been more "!@#$ yeah" or "Oooo I gots the chills" moments.  Reading the 1v1 battle scenes at times felt more like reading a Dragonball Z fanfic than a fantasy epic finale.  Disclaimer: I haven't ever read a Dragonball Z fanfic, so I could be completely wrong.  The text didn't always evoke strong visual images in my mind.  Although this could be a flaw of my mind.

 

Some other, random thoughts:

• Mat was fun.  Mat, Tuon, and Min go to Seanchan would make an awesome WoT sitcom.
• Why did we ever pretend there were more than 4 Forsaken?  The rest were just idiots.
• Even though Pevara and Androl were not what I'd consider the main characters, their storyline was the most compelling and fleshed-out.
• A lot of people were surprising (Annoura's last gesture, Berelain not being shallow, Tuon relaxing a bit, Galgan thinking of Mat as a bro)...
• ...and some were not (Oh Gawyn, you silly trope)
• Lan is awesome, and I'm glad that sheathing the sword mattered after appearing in the 1st book and then never again.
• There's certainly a lot we didn't know about the Horn.
• I've never actually been happy that a character I liked and rooted for died... just because her death was the only way she could really have a 'happy' ending.  Also did her memory really deteriorate fast or what?
• I'm glad Egwene is dead, but not because I hate Egwene.  I thought she was a goner from the day Min saw Nyn crying over a grave (Lan was just too obvious).  I want to go re-read the early chapters of the Eye of the World to compare her and Rand then with her and Rand now.  
• You know that feeling you get when you know that someone is going to turn out to be evil, no matter how good they're acting the whole book?  But they just keep acting like they're helping.  So maybe you should change your mi- nope, you know she's evil.  You know she is. 
• I'm actually digging Logain and Moridin.  I think that having them suck in various ways (in a series where everyone has risen to ridiculous power levels) was healthy.
• I wouldn't have minded another major character biting it, just to feel like the stakes were higher.  I mean, come on, LTT killed *everybody*.  Rand, you're the worst DR ever.  I was, however, pleased with the amount of maiming.
• As awesome as Demandred was, did everyone have to fight him?  I mean, one person trying and failing would have proven the point.  So would two.  I felt like there was a 'take a number, get in line' chance to fight him for any character with something to prove.  But it would be nice if someone else did something.
• I always like a good wink to the fans, so I enjoyed (1) the fact that Rand acknowledged the Roedran theory and (2) that Roedran was so far from awesome in every way that he is so definitely not Demandred.

[Entreri]

The Voice, on both occassions was the Creator. 

 

Shai'tan was unaware of Rand's presense until he entered and there is no way Rand would be hoping to hear it.

 

The Creator also appears to have showed Aviendha the future of the Aiel and was with Rand at the end. I suspected it was the Creator talking to Aviendha, but we have no proof. Would be an interesting question for Brandon. 

[Entreri]

Somebody had to defeat Demandred otherwise the forces of the Light were doomed. I believe in Mat's PoV he mentions this.  Demandred was nearly as good a general as Mat and with that sa'angreal, forget it.

 

Demandred would have destroyed the forces at Merrilor and then attack Rand at SG, GAME OVER, if not for Lan.

[KrisAnton]

The DO was not aware of his presence yet when the voice appeared.  He had the dagger and it mentions in the next Rand scene that the DO only now sensed his arrival.

You've brought up an excellent point, one I'm considering, but when Rand confronts the DO next, in chapter 34, he communicates with the DO and there is NO description of the DO's voice, merely capital letters. Either it is shoddy writing and BS left out some crucial development about the DO's voice as Rand hears it, or the author has already covered it when Rand enters the cave. I'm inclined to believe it is the DO because if it is the Creator, his voice is described, yet we know nothing of what effects the DO's voice has on Rand. He walks into the Shadow to defeat him and there is no mention of his tone or the power of his words? I believe The Voice is the DO because the author has already described the effect of The Voice on people who hear it. I will look at Demandred's pov when he encounters the DO in the beginning of LoC to be sure.

[lsm]

 

DO.

 

AMoL, Rand walks into the pit of doom, page 431.

 

"IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN."

 

The voice spoke with the inevitability of an earthquake, the words vibrating through him. More than sound in the air, far more, the words spoke as if from one soul to another. Moiraine gasped, eyes opening wide.

 

Rand was not surprised. He had heard this voice once before, and he realized that he had been expecting it. Hoping for it, at least.

Not only does Moiraine hear it, this also isn't the first time Rand has heard it. The Voice is the DO.

 

"He had heard this voice once before" doesn't mean only rand. LTT sealed the prison in the AOL he could of heard the DO there. from the way rand isn't awestruck in the pit of doom by the DO's caps lock kind of points that yep LTT faced the DO and heard him so not only is rand fine hearing the DO's voice, which other forsaken speak of it as ecstasy, a voice demandred just basks in while being scorned by shaidar haran, so rand is able to handle it, he isn't surprised and knows who it is and then confronts it.

 

outside the pit, to the voice, it's a complete different reaction. plus all the other points about the dagger etc its kind of clear thats the creator stepping in and saying alright lets do this thing

[Axon]

Pretty clearly the Creator in EotW and before the Cave.  People will debate, but there's no doubt in my mind, especially in EotW.   

[MarkDiLillo]

The more I look over it the more it becomes obvious that the voice is the creator.  The same as the voice in the first book.  They are clearly not the DO.

[KrisAnton]

From LoC:

 

“Demandred opened his mouth—and a voice exploded in his head.

DEMANDRED.

To call it a voice was to call a mountain a pebble. It nearly crushed him against the inside of his own skull; it filled him with rapture. He sank to his knees.”

 

Excerpt From: Jordan, Robert. “Lord of Chaos.” Tom Doherty Associates. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBookstore: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=378317808

To me, there isn't enough evidence to say one way or another. What would be one soul speaking to another might be rapture to a Shadowsworn.

[Suttree]

 

Only the text controls.

Which of course would be true if we had total confirmation of something in the text totally contradicting those quotes which we do not. Further I would be curious to see you provide even one concrete example of that ever happening before in relation to some thing RJ said. You mentioned earlier how you've lost faith in Q&As. Surely then you have examples to share?

[lsm]

The more I look over it the more it becomes obvious that the voice is the creator.  The same as the voice in the first book.  They are clearly not the DO.

yea it's the creator. the whole who was the voice in EOTW has been a hot topic for a long time. it's finally been answered.

 

i thought, after reading the voice outside the pit and rand saying 'thank you', i think that was a nod to us the loyal fans that have been wondering all this time

[Viperswhip]

Until I came here and read that people thought it was the DO I had no doubt it was the Creator.

[Axon]

 

The DO was not aware of his presence yet when the voice appeared.  He had the dagger and it mentions in the next Rand scene that the DO only now sensed his arrival.

You've brought up an excellent point, one I'm considering, but when Rand confronts the DO next, in chapter 34, he communicates with the DO and there is NO description of the DO's voice, merely capital letters. Either it is shoddy writing and BS left out some crucial development about the DO's voice as Rand hears it, or the author has already covered it when Rand enters the cave. I'm inclined to believe it is the DO because if it is the Creator, his voice is described, yet we know nothing of what effects the DO's voice has on Rand. He walks into the Shadow to defeat him and there is no mention of his tone or the power of his words? I believe The Voice is the DO because the author has already described the effect of The Voice on people who hear it. I will look at Demandred's pov when he encounters the DO in the beginning of LoC to be sure.

 

Why would the DO say, essentially, "come kick my ass?"