Has Saidin ever been tainted before?

[goksekor]

We all know the ages pass and come again, Dragon has battled DO or his champion Moridin/Ishy countless times with different scenarios and outcomes. I wonder though, has Saidin ever been tainted in the previous battles or Ages? It has to have been cleansed at some point too, but is there any quotes from RJ regarding this? Or other theories?

 

If this is the first time, it has some cool implications. The taint's manifestation for the Dragon of this Age is madness, and his madness is LTT. After VoG, Rand accepts this madness as a part of himself but with this, he has the memories and experience of the previous Dragon. Has this ever happened before? We know Ishy tells to Rand we have fought over and over again and I think it is safe to assume DO supplies this knowledge to Ishy, but the Creator's (or the Pattern's) Champion has never known about the previous battle and maybe tries same strategies over and over again. I mean they may have some info about this but only in some books like Herid Fel's, so never in a "personal experience" kind of way before. So maybe in a way the DO's counterstroke, which caused the male channelers to go mad and caused the Breaking, will be the ultimate weapon for the Light Side?

[Hagazussa]

It is possible, we do not know for sure.I think it is more likely that saidin get tainted at the end of every second age, but you theory is an interesting one, however not enough is known of other third ages to know if saidin was tainted in them as well, perhaps saidar was the one tainted in some of them, who knows.

[Agitel]

I don't know. It was a set of very special circumstances that led to saidin getting tainted. To say it never happened before might be a stretch, but maybe not every turning. Or maybe it's something that's crept into the Pattern in recent turnings (remember that RJ said that consecutive turnings are more similar, but 100 turns ago might look different. If you were to imagine a tapestry, maybe the Third Age is a tapestry of a dragon (heh), and consecutive turnings look very much the same except when viewed up close where you notice that the threads and weaving is a little different, where distant turnings may have the dragon in a different pose or in a different style.

 

Sorry for the metaphor.

[Hagazussa]

Interesting, that concept is similar to a common theory withing real world occultism that when something have happened the chances of it happening again get higher, so if an woman in an ancient society in Africa discovers how to make a needle the chances are bigger a woman in ancient Germanic cultures will do the same. But yes that is actually an interesting concept that each age affect the next one and help shape it, so if the Dragon is raised by a farmer once third age the chances are bigger that he will be raised in a similar situation the next. Perhaps then the taint have not been a part of every third age, but it is more likely now to be a part of the next and who know how many third ages it have been a part of.

[haplo333]

Maybe Saidar got tainted at the end of the second age so the dragon was a female person:)

[Suttree]

The Dragons soul is always male, souls don't change gender and Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light...

 

 

Interview: Dec 12th, 2000

CNN Chat (Verbatim)

Jonan

Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another age, another turning of the wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

Robert Jordan

That is not something I intend to explore.

 

 

interview: Apr 4th, 2001

Leiden Signing Report - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

[goksekor]

Suttree, thanks for the above quotes. Do you know if this has ever been asked to Mr. Jordan before? The taint in Saidin I mean. I really am wondering this, this feels like it is the reason why this will be the Last Battle.

[Hagazussa]

I think the third age always ends with The Last Battle, that do not mean it is the last battle ever, it is more the end of that age than the end of everything.

 

It is theoretically possible of saidar to be tainted, if women had been a part of LTT's strike force for example it would have, and you might have one age where women attacked the Dark One and not the men, but that do not affect the Dragon soul, he will always be male, what side of the Source is tainted if any do not affect who the Dragon is born as, though off course it do affect how he live once he starts to channel.

[UncleButcher1980]

Hey Suttree, it's interesting you should post that because I was only just reading back through a thread I started last year about the Dragon Soul/Champion of Light and you argued quite strongly that they may not always be the same person. And I'm wondering now whether you still feel that way? Perhaps I should revive that thread rather then derail this one.

[Suttree]

@UncleButcher

 

Yeah I've had a number of conversations both on the forums and elsewhere that has made me change my mind on that one. A few quotes brought to my attention(the most recent beig the one where Brandon said Rand/Ishy's soul were linked like Birgitte/Gaidal) and one argument from Terez in partucular where just too strong to ignore.

 

Would be interested to see that thread if you linked it. Always funny to see old debates like that, especially when you've changed your mind! ;)

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes, Terez does have that effect on people! Anyway here's the thread. http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59043-light-vs-dark-a-draw/?hl=%2Blight+%2Bdark

[Ferdawoon]

Suttree, thanks for the above quotes. Do you know if this has ever been asked to Mr. Jordan before? The taint in Saidin I mean. I really am wondering this, this feels like it is the reason why this will be the Last Battle.

 

 

 

I knew I had seen it somewhere: 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 12th, 2000

CNN Chat (Verbatim)

 

JONAN

Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another age, another turning of the wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

That is not something I intend to explore.

 

 

There is also this, to a lesser extent

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

 

TALLIS

 

Other "revelations":

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Saidar would have definitely been tainted had female channelers participated in the sealing.

 

 

 

I remember seeing somewhere that he say that each age is similar to the same age the previous turning, in the same way that two tapestries can look the same at a glance, and at a distance, but once you get closer you see differences. Not sure if this mean that something as significant as which side of the One Power that is tainted is too great of a change or not. Remember that men cannot link without women, for example, which could cause issues.

 

There is also this to explain why it was that the male half was the corrupte one in this turning.

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jul 14th, 2005

ComicCon Reports (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Thoughts on his magic system?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

In physical strength men have the advantage so he wanted to design a system where women could have the advantage. This led to the concept of saidin andsaidar and of the taint limiting men.

[Suttree]

Suttree, thanks for the above quotes. Do you know if this has ever been asked to Mr. Jordan before? The taint in Saidin I mean. I really am wondering this, this feels like it is the reason why this will be the Last Battle.

Actually it's pretty clear that this isn't "the" Last Battle, it is merely "a" Last Battle. RJ said there is nothing special about this age:

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

SORILEA

This leads me to believe that this will not be the LAST BATTLE ever. It probably just comes about every turning of the Wheel, and since it has been such a long time ago, no one ever remembers it.

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ explained that that is what a lot of the WOT is about, the source of Legends, and how some legends are based in such a small bit of real history, that no one really knows where they came from. If they are real, or just made up.

 

Also per Herid Fel...

 

LoC

The stout man’s head jerked up. "Oh. Yes. Ah, question. Last time. Tarmon Gai’don. Well, I don’t know what it will be like. Trollocs, I suppose? Dreadlords? Yes. Dreadlords. But I have been thinking. It can’t be the Last Battle. I don’t think it can. Maybe every Age has a Last Battle. Or most of them." Suddenly he frowned down his nose at the pipe in his teeth, and began rummaging across the table. "I have a tinderbox here somewhere."

   "What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

   "What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

   "I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

   "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

   "Why? Maybe the next time they’ll drill through the patch. Maybe that’s how they could do it the last time – drill into what the Creator made, I mean – maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don’t know."

   Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if theycalled it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

[shortkut]

Why do people hold onto the "there is nothing special about this age" quote? If he told us the end of this age is different then the ending is kind of ruined. I always took that quote to mean "what has already been weaved in this age is not different in any special way than any previous third age"

[Suttree]

Well we know that Fain is a "wildcard" and unique to this age. So while there may have been other "wildcards" in the past that could be something different. Regardless the question above is pretty cut and dry and fits in with what we have been told by knowledgeable people like Fel(which almost exactly mirrors RJ's thoughts on the matter) in text. Additionally there is that whole "there are neither beginnings or endings" things which just happens to be pretty big and we already have info from ages after this one provided to us. Bottom line there have been countless "last battles" and the only thing that will change that according to RJ is a victory by the DO. Given that the DO is the "dark counterpart" to the creator and a Manichean style dualism is the basis for the struggle you would think they need each other for things to continue on. We don't have long to wait to find out.

[shortkut]

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless... Except for the fact that after this turning we have linear time/the dark one is destroyed/the dark one wins the final victory... But please keep reading my books everyone" - RJ

[Suttree]

So you're on record and that's your prediction then? DO destroyed and/or linear time? This is "the last battle"? If so that's bold seeing as how it flies in the face of most of the textual evidence and major themes of the series. Would love to hear what fron the books makes you think that is the case? Regardles it should be interesting, I'll be the first to tip my cap if you're correct.

[shortkut]

No, but what else could RJ answer aside from the original quote without giving anything away about the ending?

[Suttree]

Wait what? Now I'm confused, if you don't think this is "the last battle" or any of those things are going to happen what are you disputing about my original post?

[goksekor]

Thanks for the quotes and inbook texts you provided Sutree. However I really think this will be "The Last Battle". Even if the textual evidence and the theme around the series, hell even the name itself suggests otherwise, when I read the end of the aMoL, I will have known last battle is in deed the last.

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless... Except for the fact that after this turning we have linear time/the dark one is destroyed/the dark one wins the final victory... But please keep reading my books everyone" - RJ

So you're on record and that's your prediction then? DO destroyed and/or linear time? This is "the last battle"? If so that's bold seeing as how it flies in the face of most of the textual evidence and major themes of the series. Would love to hear what fron the books makes you think that is the case? Regardles it should be interesting, I'll be the first to tip my cap if you're correct.

This is exactly what I look forward to.

 

Why I think this will be the last mainly is: I think Robert Jordan was a genious. He was meticulous and I agree with most when I say I could do with less skirt straightening or less silk choosing etc etc etc but I feel like EVERY subplot he has written brings the characters to another level. Anyway, I feel like a genious like Robert Jordan would not just tell the story of "a last battle" but "the last battle".

 

I'll try to make it more clear, Let's assume Herid Fel's explanation is 100% on par with what RJ had in mind and lets assume the previous 3rd Age was almost the same, with different names and different subplots but same metaplot, similar events etc, at least this is what I understand from the tapestry methaphor. And the one before that.And the one before that. There would be countless 3rd Ages with the very similar events. At this point I feel like RJ would have taken a step back and said: Why am I telling the story of Rand and Mat and Perrin then? Why not the guys 4 ages before or 5 ages in the future? For me, the most obvious answer is because this time it is different.

 

This is why I was asking about the original question of the forum, if Saidin has ever been tainted before. I am trying to find the thing which makes this age different and make last battle the final.

 

By the way, I am not trying to base this on any actual evidence and I don't have anything to go on but Shortkut's quote of RJ(big thanks by the way). This is more of a feeling as to how I think RJ would have start writing this story.

[shortkut]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2719859" data-time="1356589439"><p>

Wait what? Now I'm confused, if you don't think this is "the last battle" or any of those things are going to happen what are you disputing about my original post?</p></blockquote>

 

I am disputing how definitive you are interpreting that quote to be. RJ has to tell us this age is the same to avoid spoiling the ending if he does have some twist in store. All he can talk about is what has been woven thus far. Thus far it is nothing special compared to any other age, but by the end of the book, who knows

[Whizbang]

There doesn't need to be a special reason to write this particular age over any other. We, the reader, have never experienced any 3rd age. So, any one of them will be full of adventure and wonder to us. We're getting a glimpse of events on the other side of the Wheel. If we had records that described the last 3rd age, and the one before that, and the one before that, then yes, I'd say, "we need a special reason to read an indepth account of the 3rd age, something that makes it unique", but we don't have any such records, so anything at all from any 3rd age will suffice to entertain us.

 

There are tons and tons and tons of books out there where the ending is a foregone conclusion. We all knew Frodo would destroy the Ring. We all knew Harry Potter would kill/destroy Voldemort. We all knew Aslan would come back from the dead and destroy the witch. That doesn't mean we shouldn't read these stories, or that the author shouldn't have even written the novel. Yes, many stories have twists at the end, but that is not the only criteria for a good story. In fact, twists can sometimes cheapen the otherwise great story.

 

I believe Saidin has been tainted before. I believe this is only the Last Battle for this age. I believe the Wheel will continue to turn on its pre-destined path. MAYBE Rand will find a way to break the endless pattern, and the Wheel will have to make a new Age Lace. Maybe the Dark One will never touch the world again. But, I strongly doubt it and would be a little disappointed in RJ if he went that way.

[Morden]

Its human nature to call something "the last battle."

 

Take the Great War for example... the war to end all wars... Except it didnt, it never does. So why wouldnt humans put their wishful thinking into the name of the final battle with the dark one of that age. Afterall if it does happen again it will be so far in the future that it wouldnt matter to them.

[Suttree]

@short

 

It was merely one piece of evidence I'm using to make my case that while this may be a "last battle" for our characters it's not "the last battle". So you agree with me but you are taking exception with me using that as part of my evidence? That confuses me more as even if you think there are more ways to interpret it, mine is at the very least one of the ways to do so.

 

I think maybe you misunderstand my meaning. Even if we did know what has gone on in previous 3rd ages(which we obviously don't) we know things change based on RJ's "tapestry" quote. I also included quite clearly that if the DO wins all bets are off. So I'm not saying things are exactly the same. What I'm saying is when someone asks whether "this the final time" and RJ starts his answer with "no" we can quite clearly understand this ins't "the last battle"(along with all textual evidence). It is merely the last battle for this turning. One can't look at that quote in a vacuum by itself. You have to combine it with everythig else we know. When one does that the meaning is pretty clear IMO. Now if you believe this is "the last battle" fine, please tell us why, hope I made myself more clear though.

 

@gokseeker

 

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant but you do realize that wasn't actually a quote from RJ shortkut provided?

[shortkut]

Sutt: when there is something that has multiple interpretations, I prefer people acknowledge that instead of either saying or acting like their interpretation is the end all be all of interpretations for that piece. Sometimes you are good at expressing that, other times, your posts come across the complete opposite manner regardless of your intentions. I do not mean to single you out since there are others much worse than you in this respect