[Advanced] Bloodlust Mafia Game Over!

[Turin Turambar]

Really Darthe? Why am I named I.P. Freely and why do I work for the P.N.A. Bucket company?

At least it appears you are well qualified for your job.

[Turin Turambar]

My take on Mynd at present is that he has placedhimself in the middle of all discussion to the exclusion of anything else except how it relates to him. He did it of his own choosing and has shown no interest in correcting any of his wacko statements. That he is being defended by so many so vigorously means there is a plethora of information that will come from his lynch. The first talking point was that this is his meta. I would say as peace did that it is degigned to look like it but is in fact laying groundwork for additional odd pushes that then can be sluffed off as "for reactions" if they do not take off. The second talking point seems to be "but he is a good scum-hunter, so it would be a shame to lose him on D1." Nearly every time I have seen someone put this forward the person in question has turned out to be mafia. That it is being forwarded by others is what makes it look like teammates covering so he does not have to make that argument himself. Keeping above the fray as it were. Bottom line about the MynDefenders is they are all saying the same things. It doesn't look kosher.

 

Cosmic, I don't see any way there would be a jester in this game. From the opening description it is Van Helsing vs. Dracula with a bunch of previously unnamed folk thrown in. (btw, thanks for my nametag Darthe. Now I don't feel like extra #7) Also in the win conditions it states that for town to win they must remove all that are not of the town. A jester would be 3rd party and therefore not town. That would put town in an unwinable situation (Kobayashi Maru)

 

Of the defenders I am most suspicious of Cosmic with his most agressive defense and Rand with the Peace vote that had poor reasoning and looks to be a vote for the sake of voting. I also didn't like how Basel voted Ishy saying he took some heat for placing the 3rd vote on cloud. I didn't see Ishy really affected other than TG voting him which was changed fairly quickly. Now Basel has jumped on the Hoof train too.

[Darthe]

Trips.

[Darthe]

Misspelled Trips.

[Darthe]

Castle Dracul, 2012

 

 

"You know," he leaned over the bar to grab a scotch, "it has been over half a millennia since I told that old gypsy woman that I would help her.  I have learned much since then.  I'll show you if you follow me." His head jerked towards a more private corner, grin shedding light on his meaning.

 

"Well, that is very fascinating Mr. Helsing but I only come to this freak show to  kill Dracula.  Nothing else matters."  Her voice held a definite chill.  She took her drink and waltzed away.

 

A dark skinned man sauntered over, his head shaved and dressed mostly in leather.  Van knew him on sight, the famous hunter of his own species.

 

"Man she burnt you!" He chuckled.  "What an ass though, am I right?"

 

"Indeed you are, Mr.. Brooks is it?"

 

"People call me Blade, let's not get into it.  What do you think of the locale?"  Each took a sip and looked around.  The most famous hunters in the world stood there.  Each wanted the legendary Vlad the Impaler, malicious even before his deal with Satan, on a stake.  Their was glory and fame in such a kill and the count had been most welcoming so far.  They stood in his castle, drank his liqueur and ate his food at his invitation.  Of course it was a trap and nonetheless all had come.  After all, they needed to know his plans if they were to kill him.

 

To Van Helsing's eyes Dracula was too confident by half. 

[cosmicpanda]

Okay, Turin. Let's say I'm wrong about Mynd, and that you're right: explain to me how his actions benefit him if he's playing as scum. Your reasoning 'I would say as peace did that it is degigned to look like [meta] but is in fact laying groundwork for additional odd pushes that then can be sluffed off as "for reactions" if they do not take off' doesn't cut it. I can see how both town and scum might play like that. 

 

Also, what do you think of Blackhoof? 

[cosmicpanda]

Also, about the win conditions, you have a fair point.

[cosmicpanda]

Although, adding to that, it doesn't exclude the possibility of a jester - it just means that the town would have to lynch the jester before it can win. Jesters winning doesn't have to end the game. 

[Blackhoof]

Okay, it's late, and I'm tired. 

 

Des thinks I'm not playing to my meta. He based that on, what, two posts? But whatever, he can think what he wants. 

 

On Mynd, I don't like the 'lynch me to see that I'm town' play, and would have thought he'd be above it. In any case, Blackhoof's post 228 is silly. I've seen townies do such a thing quite often, though often it's just the sort of 'lynch me and you'll see I'm telling the truth' throwaway line. I'm not sure that scum do it nearly so often, because they want to survive, so I wouldn't say that it's not town behaviour. It's certainly not useful town behaviour, but it's not scummy. The part of Blackhoof's case that I don't like is that even though he says exactly why Mynd's play is a bad idea, he then suggests we go for it anyway. In other words, he's okay with lynching a hypothetically-town Mynd for no good reason. That is not just anti-town, but actively benefits the scum, who want to see townies reduced in number. 

 

Unvote, vote: Blackhoof

 

 

(Also, is nobody else thinking that Mynd might just be a jester? Nobody?)

 

Why not ask mynd? Ask him why he thinks that his death would benefit the town. because he seems to think that it will.

look at him- he has stopped contributing, he is just waiting. he hasn't done any proper scum-hunting and has offered us nothing since he said "lynch me and examine everything afterwards"

 

i do not know what he has up his sleeve, and perhaps i am playign right into his hands. OR, maybe his plan worked, and you, panda, are playing into his hands. Perhaps his plan was to play the martyr and let everyone lynch the guy who inevitably wanted to fulfill his apparent desire for martyrdom? I cannot guess. But really, if we lynch him- what gain can come from it for him? If he is town, then we can examine the fallout, and potentially lynch me. If he is mafia, then "yay!". 

 

The ONLY way that mynd being lynched could benefit HIM, is if he were a jester (but i will address that later). Any other course of action may or may not benefit mynd, may or may not be some part of whatever plan he has going on. Therefore, lynching him provides no benefit to Mynd, nor his team if he is mafia. So, to make sure that we are not being played with this martyr thing, lynching mynd is the only logical course of action. And frankly, letting him live will keep this cloud over us for the rest of the game, and the confusion of his actions are something that we should not tolerate. In addition, this martyr thing is very anti-town behaviour, and thus i conclude that he is likely mafia as opposed to an incompetent/counter-productive town player, because mynd is neither incompetent nor counter-productive when playing mafia... well.... he isn't incompetent, at least 

 

 

Now, as to the jester factor, i tend to ignore it in games, and pretend that it doesn't exist. it can be an easy excuse a mafia can use to cover for a scummy teammate. i mean, what is the alternative? leave mynd alive for the rest of the game, with the shadow of "maybe a jester" covering his every scummy action? why not just lynch him and be done with it? so what if the jester wins? the town can still win with him, as can the mafia.

 

therefore, in my opinion, the chance of mynd being a jester is simply more reason to lynch him. 

 

 

Does anyone remember Hoof being this vocal before?  It's been awhile since I've played with him.  I'm starting to wonder if Hoof and Mynd have something going on.

 

i am on holidays, and often bored during the days. for a while, i wasnt so active when playing mafia, so i stopped. not that i am back, i wish to turn over a new leaf and play the game properly, with as much activity and involvement as possible 

 

Hoof, if you don't agree with what Mynd is doing, why go along with it? (that was supposed to be part of the above)

 

Panda: No, because when someone used that line, I usually think they're scum trying to look town, or frustrated/giving up townie. (I've done it and it got me lynched). For Mynd being, well Mynd, I could see the possibility of him being jester.

 

because i find it most likely that he is mafia trying to get out of being lynched by acting the martyr, because being a martyr is anti-town behaviour, especially when you are as skilled a player as mynd. 

 

 

So, Cloud and Hoof. Noted. 

 

because he defended me?

 

ha, i suppose if that is all it takes, we are looking at a Mynd-Ishy-Panda scum team for certain then 

[John E. Kelley]

Ok so I did a quick reread, had some catching up to do. 

 

Panda raised an interesting question on the previous page, but I think I know why Blackhoof thinks it's an OK deal. Hoof believes that it's a win-win situation. He thinks that Mynd has been acting way too scummy so he believes that the chances are higher that he will turn up scum instead of town. If Mynd turns up town however, then we will have good reads on the players. Who voted against him, who protected him (and why) etc. etc. Of course I can't answer for Hoof, but that's just my opinion on the matter. 

 

I'm not happy with the train on Hoof and I think there is not enough evidence to vote against him. Mynd has been acting way more suspicious and crazy in my opinion than him. I also think that Ishy and Dice are WAY too protective about Mynd, scummy play there. Ishy was focused so long on Mish and me, and then instantly switches to Hoof. I don't like the current situation. My vote will stay where it is atm. 

 

My vote went to Hoof because you and he are a win-win for Town. The both of you being scum and all....

[John E. Kelley]

Okay, it's late, and I'm tired. 

 

Des thinks I'm not playing to my meta. He based that on, what, two posts? But whatever, he can think what he wants. 

 

On Mynd, I don't like the 'lynch me to see that I'm town' play, and would have thought he'd be above it. In any case, Blackhoof's post 228 is silly. I've seen townies do such a thing quite often, though often it's just the sort of 'lynch me and you'll see I'm telling the truth' throwaway line. I'm not sure that scum do it nearly so often, because they want to survive, so I wouldn't say that it's not town behaviour. It's certainly not useful town behaviour, but it's not scummy. The part of Blackhoof's case that I don't like is that even though he says exactly why Mynd's play is a bad idea, he then suggests we go for it anyway. In other words, he's okay with lynching a hypothetically-town Mynd for no good reason. That is not just anti-town, but actively benefits the scum, who want to see townies reduced in number. 

 

Unvote, vote: Blackhoof

 

 

(Also, is nobody else thinking that Mynd might just be a jester? Nobody?)

 

Why not ask mynd? Ask him why he thinks that his death would benefit the town. because he seems to think that it will.

look at him- he has stopped contributing, he is just waiting. he hasn't done any proper scum-hunting and has offered us nothing since he said "lynch me and examine everything afterwards"

 

i do not know what he has up his sleeve, and perhaps i am playign right into his hands. OR, maybe his plan worked, and you, panda, are playing into his hands. Perhaps his plan was to play the martyr and let everyone lynch the guy who inevitably wanted to fulfill his apparent desire for martyrdom? I cannot guess. But really, if we lynch him- what gain can come from it for him? If he is town, then we can examine the fallout, and potentially lynch me. If he is mafia, then "yay!". 

 

The ONLY way that mynd being lynched could benefit HIM, is if he were a jester (but i will address that later). Any other course of action may or may not benefit mynd, may or may not be some part of whatever plan he has going on. Therefore, lynching him provides no benefit to Mynd, nor his team if he is mafia. So, to make sure that we are not being played with this martyr thing, lynching mynd is the only logical course of action. And frankly, letting him live will keep this cloud over us for the rest of the game, and the confusion of his actions are something that we should not tolerate. In addition, this martyr thing is very anti-town behaviour, and thus i conclude that he is likely mafia as opposed to an incompetent/counter-productive town player, because mynd is neither incompetent nor counter-productive when playing mafia... well.... he isn't incompetent, at least 

 

 

Now, as to the jester factor, i tend to ignore it in games, and pretend that it doesn't exist. it can be an easy excuse a mafia can use to cover for a scummy teammate. i mean, what is the alternative? leave mynd alive for the rest of the game, with the shadow of "maybe a jester" covering his every scummy action? why not just lynch him and be done with it? so what if the jester wins? the town can still win with him, as can the mafia.

 

therefore, in my opinion, the chance of mynd being a jester is simply more reason to lynch him. 

 

 

Does anyone remember Hoof being this vocal before?  It's been awhile since I've played with him.  I'm starting to wonder if Hoof and Mynd have something going on.

 

i am on holidays, and often bored during the days. for a while, i wasnt so active when playing mafia, so i stopped. not that i am back, i wish to turn over a new leaf and play the game properly, with as much activity and involvement as possible 

 

Hoof, if you don't agree with what Mynd is doing, why go along with it? (that was supposed to be part of the above)

 

Panda: No, because when someone used that line, I usually think they're scum trying to look town, or frustrated/giving up townie. (I've done it and it got me lynched). For Mynd being, well Mynd, I could see the possibility of him being jester.

 

because i find it most likely that he is mafia trying to get out of being lynched by acting the martyr, because being a martyr is anti-town behaviour, especially when you are as skilled a player as mynd. 

 

 

So, Cloud and Hoof. Noted. 

 

because he defended me?

 

ha, i suppose if that is all it takes, we are looking at a Mynd-Ishy-Panda Town team for certain then 

 

 

Fixed the bolded for ya Sir Scumalot.

[Blackhoof]

why are you so certain that i am scum? 

 

 

 

 

 

i have this horrible suspicion, this little niggling doubt that Ishy, Mynd, Panda and Cloud are all town and the mafia are just sitting back and laughing their butts off 

[peacesells]

If mynd were town he'd be all over ishy's ass for buddying up so much.

[cosmicpanda]

Okay, Blackhoof. Thanks for the reply. As far as I see it, there are two reasons that Mynd might want to be lynched: one, that he wins by being lynched, or two, that he actually doesn't want to play anymore. As Turin pointed out, the town in this game has to lynch everyone who isn't town, so if Mynd is a jester perhaps we actually should lynch him. But my normal approach is the one that Blackhoof describes, that of ignoring the jester, since they disrupt play otherwise and cost the town a lynch (and that's what I was thinking of when I brought up the possibility). I can agree to ignore the possibility of Mynd being a jester, since it is quite unlikely, and that only leaves the option of Mynd's not wanting to play any more. In that case, he should replace out. 

 

However, since he hasn't yet, I will simply treat him as somebody who isn't infallible, and may have made a few minor blunders. Really, I just don't see the things that he did as signifying that he's scum. So he winds up Cloud and Mish by getting their association wrong, and then for some reason doesn't back down. That's hardly scummy - I would expect a mafioso in that situation, upon realising their mistake, to back down and try to smooth things over. Mafiosi can't afford to die, especially not for such a stupid reason. (Sure, you say, it may be WIFOM - ie. he's trying to prove that he's town by acting so unbelievably scummy that no scummer in their right mind would do such a thing. Okay, but in that case, why would he do it right at the start of the game when such a high-risk, attention-grabbing strategy makes no sense?)    

 

Here's how your reasoning seems to me. Firstly, since offering oneself up for a lynch is anti-town, and since Mynd offered himself up for lynching, Mynd is anti-town. Secondly, since Mynd is trying to seem town by taking this course of action, and since we can't actually know his alignment right now, the best way of not being fooled by this plan of Mynd's is to lynch him, thereby removing any doubt about his alignment. You deal with the possibility of his being a jester in the same way. Thirdly, since Mynd is taking an anti-town strategy at the moment, he is probably scum.   

 

Now, I can agree with the first part of that reasoning, but not the second or third parts. We can't know anybody's alignment in the game without lynching them (or perhaps a cop vouching for them, but that doesn't happen often on day one), but that is no reason to lynch everybody indiscriminately. There is scumhunting, and then there is lynching people arbitrarily. What you propose is the latter, since you are no longer trying to prove that Mynd is scum, apart from the bogus equation of being anti-town with scumminess. Despite your contention, these aren't the same thing: a townie can play in a sub-optimal manner without being scum. Happens all the time. Your case makes a good argument for Mynd's being anti-town, but not for his being scum. 

 

Ironically, you actually do the thing that you're wanting to lynch Mynd for, because you strongly hint that you'd be okay with being lynched yourself if Mynd turns out to be town - else why say that you might be potentially lynched if Mynd is town? I think it's obvious that you're using faulty logic to try and get Mynd lynched. You even consider the one explanation of Mynd's play that causes it all to make sense, which is that he may have played a little bit badly, but reject it outright - because it causes your case, such as it is, to collapse around your ears. Mynd didn't misunderstand Cloud and Mish's association: no, it was part of a deliberate mud-slinging strategy to discredit his opponents, or something. And in offering himself for the lynch, Mynd couldn't simply be doing the same thing you've just done yourself: no, it's a fiendish plan to confuse us all and render the town helpless, letting him run amok like Scummy McScummyscum himself.    

 

In short, I'm happy with my vote on you, because you're demonstrably not trying to scumhunt, but are simply pressing for the easiest lynch you can by dressing it up in bogus reasoning. And that's scummy. 

[Blackhoof]

hmmmmmmm

[Blackhoof]

Okay, Blackhoof. Thanks for the reply. As far as I see it, there are two reasons that Mynd might want to be lynched: one, that he wins by being lynched, or two, that he actually doesn't want to play anymore. As Turin pointed out, the town in this game has to lynch everyone who isn't town, so if Mynd is a jester perhaps we actually should lynch him. But my normal approach is the one that Blackhoof describes, that of ignoring the jester, since they disrupt play otherwise and cost the town a lynch (and that's what I was thinking of when I brought up the possibility). I can agree to ignore the possibility of Mynd being a jester, since it is quite unlikely, and that only leaves the option of Mynd's not wanting to play any more. In that case, he should replace out. 

 

precisely. 

 

However, since he hasn't yet, I will simply treat him as somebody who isn't infallible, and may have made a few minor blunders. Really, I just don't see the things that he did as signifying that he's scum. So he winds up Cloud and Mish by getting their association wrong, and then for some reason doesn't back down. That's hardly scummy - I would expect a mafioso in that situation, upon realising their mistake, to back down and try to smooth things over. Mafiosi can't afford to die, especially not for such a stupid reason. (Sure, you say, it may be WIFOM - ie. he's trying to prove that he's town by acting so unbelievably scummy that no scummer in their right mind would do such a thing. Okay, but in that case, why would he do it right at the start of the game when such a high-risk, attention-grabbing strategy makes no sense?)    

 

i have absolutely no idea.

 

Here's how your reasoning seems to me. Firstly, since offering oneself up for a lynch is anti-town, and since Mynd offered himself up for lynching, Mynd is anti-town. Secondly, since Mynd is trying to seem town by taking this course of action, and since we can't actually know his alignment right now, the best way of not being fooled by this plan of Mynd's is to lynch him, thereby removing any doubt about his alignment. You deal with the possibility of his being a jester in the same way. Thirdly, since Mynd is taking an anti-town strategy at the moment, he is probably scum.   

 

hmmm.. pretty much this

 

Now, I can agree with the first part of that reasoning, but not the second or third parts. We can't know anybody's alignment in the game without lynching them (or perhaps a cop vouching for them, but that doesn't happen often on day one), but that is no reason to lynch everybody indiscriminately. There is scumhunting, and then there is lynching people arbitrarily. What you propose is the latter, since you are no longer trying to prove that Mynd is scum, apart from the bogus equation of being anti-town with scumminess. Despite your contention, these aren't the same thing: a townie can play in a sub-optimal manner without being scum. Happens all the time. Your case makes a good argument for Mynd's being anti-town, but not for his being scum. 

 

yes, but Mynd does not usually do crazy things and then just... stop... like this. he will act crazy in the first half of the day and then be all "HA! I caught you!" when people are caught in his traps or snakes are startled. he has done none of that.

 

Ironically, you actually do the thing that you're wanting to lynch Mynd for, because you strongly hint that you'd be okay with being lynched yourself if Mynd turns out to be town - else why say that you might be potentially lynched if Mynd is town? I think it's obvious that you're using faulty logic to try and get Mynd lynched. You even consider the one explanation of Mynd's play that causes it all to make sense, which is that he may have played a little bit badly, but reject it outright - because it causes your case, such as it is, to collapse around your ears. Mynd didn't misunderstand Cloud and Mish's association: no, it was part of a deliberate mud-slinging strategy to discredit his opponents, or something. And in offering himself for the lynch, Mynd couldn't simply be doing the same thing you've just done yourself: no, it's a fiendish plan to confuse us all and render the town helpless, letting him run amok like Scummy McScummyscum himself.    

 

i wouldn't be COOL with being lynched, but if mynd flips town... yeah, im not in a good place. 

 

i dont think mynd would play this badly. i dont think that he would act weirdly, offer himself up as a martyr and then stop defending himself completely. i am not offering myself up for a lynch at all- merely accepting that i may be lynched depending on the outcome of Mynd's lynch (should it happen).

 

In short, I'm happy with my vote on you, because you're demonstrably not trying to scumhunt, but are simply pressing for the easiest lynch you can by dressing it up in bogus reasoning. And that's scummy. 

 

not trying to scumhunt? i am jumping on the scummiest thing i see- Mynd's martyrdom

note how i am also discussing Ishy's buddying and your defence of Mynd.

 

I am scumhunting... I dont know why you claim that i am not.

[cosmicpanda]

My point is essentially that you're pointing out that Mynd's being anti-town and are trying to construe his play as being scummy, despite offering no good explanation of why Mynd's play benefits the scum. That's important, because it is a pretty fundamental aspect of trying to argue that somebody's mafia. 

[Blackhoof]

Well, if he is mafia then they avoid losing a member. that, I believe, is the point of this martyr WIFOM.

 

I have no doubt that if mynd were mafia, he would have been banking on someone making the exact same arguments that you are now. THAT is the plan- hide behind simply being 'anti-town' instead of scummy.

 

But to be honest, what is the difference? Both are counter-productive to the town winning the game, and both the anti-town and scum labels can be applied to mafia/cult/other third parties. Well, perhaps not to more passive third parties like jesters or survivors, but still.

 

To be honest panda, you do not ping me like ishy does. It is more a gut feeling than anything else, but i think that you are just a misguided townie.

 

 

 

Now, everyone. The day draws to a close. For the love of science, don't let it go random. Make your choice- me, or mynd. Just be quick about it :P

[Tyler Glembo]

I'll reread the last few pages tonight and if needs be consolidate my vote.  I'm up in Jersey visiting family right now so I'll have very limited access. 

[Darthe]

14 hours til deadline.

[Darthe]

Official Vote Count:

 

 

Mynd (6/10): Turin, TG, Cloud, Kae, Peace, BH

 

Cloud (2/10): Mish, Mynd

 

Peace (1/10): Rand

 

BH (5/10): Ishy, Dice, Despo, Pandy, Basel

 

 

Unwilling to commit to a vote currently (5/19):

 

BG, Kaylee, Len, JLM, LZM

 

 

13 hours til deadline. Weekend activity gives me a sad. I am the pallbearer in a funeral in 3 so do not expect me around for the middle of the day.

[JenLenaMom]

Ok after all the back and forth I'm starting to see the point on Mynd.

 

vote Mynd

[michellem]

I'll be sparse this evening too; because of [insert really long explenation about family complications] we're celebrating Christmas with mom-in-law this evening. I'll be on as often as I can, but I don't have the same access I usually have.

 

I'm torn on Mynd, I can see points in both Hoof's and Panda's arguments. But I'm gonna get off my fence now (t's not very comfy to sit on) and vote Mynd

[Lenlo]

Alright I am going to have to side with Hoof on this. I dont like Mynds "Lynch me" posts anymore than the next guy and even if he is a Jester ((Which I doubt)) the game wouldnt end.We get alot of info from the Mynd lynch and if he flips mafia instead of town like he says he will all the better.

 

Vote Mynd

[Darthe]

Mynd is at L-1.