Luckers... Official on Brandon

[reneyan]

Terez I think on page 5 said Brandon's filling in RJ's outline was all fanfiction, I vehemently disagree. Presumably RJ was a fan of his own work, by that logic, how is any book better or worse than any other. RJ IS NOT God, and therefore WOT is a book not the word of the supreme being of your choice. Brandon was hired as the author to replace RJ, I am positive he is quite capable of seperating fanfiction from his job. To suggest otherwise is an insult to Brandon.

 

On the continuity errors and such, the time was already screwed pre-tGS. I am mortal, so was RJ. It would taken a hell of alot more than three books for RJ to have finished, failes rescue took three books, Elayne's succession took 3-5, depending on subjective facts, Perrin and Matt were left out of books. I'm 30, and even if RJ had perfect health I couldn't live as long as it would taken RJ to finish. If RJ had lived I think he would have lost his audience around book 15 because they wouldn't continue reading 12,000 word books forever. Diehards on DM and other fansites would've kept reading. The vast majority would've disappeared.

To be clear, I'm not slamming RJ, I think he did a wonderful job. I am trying to get people to understand HE WASN'T GOD, and Brandon ISN'T THE DEVIL. Both men did their best.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

The problem with this is, most of it is subjective. 

 

Prose is subjective.

 

Mat not sounding like Mat is subjective.

 

Cadsuane not sounding like Cadsuane is subjective.

 

Aviendha not saying Rand al Thor being a mistake is subjective.

 

It is impossible outside of an educational analysis of the writing itself to discuss whether or not BS did a good or bad job.

 

Ya....you're wrong.  Some of it is subjective, but most of it can be backed up with objective reasoning.

Like what?

 

 

 

Like I've come to realize that prose is not entirely subjective. Aviendha not saying Rand al'Thor is not a subjective mistake - it is a legitimate mistake. If it were not an error then a simple sentence (like we've seen before when used with Elayne) would have shown us that this was intentional.  Your opinion can differ from mine, but I see it as a blatant error.  If it were not an error then it wouldn't ring out like a bell as being so awkward.  And I actually am not reading any of this looking for mistakes or reasons to complain.

 

Almost everything that is subjective in this world can be broken down into objective qualities. This includes music and art. It doesn't mean that the objective qualities upon which it is judged will never change, but it does mean that currently we can break down these supposedly subjective opinions into objetive elements to form a legitimate and objective judging.

 

For instance, if Mat doesn't sound like Mat...that is subjective at first glance. However if we wanted to break down the two authors writing details of how they wrote Mat we can definitely define some objective qualities and come up with an analysis as to why BS's Mat doesnt sound like RJ's.  Or on the other hand, maybe we could find many similarities and the conclusion would be that there really isn't any quantifiable difference.

[reneyan]

What none of you seem to understand is that most fans don't analyze to death what they read, and that doesn't make them lesser mortals. We aren't talking about Three Musketeers vs. fifty shades of grey

[Terez]

Terez I think on page 5 said Brandon's filling in RJ's outline was all fanfiction, I vehemently disagree. Presumably RJ was a fan of his own work, by that logic, how is any book better or worse than any other. RJ IS NOT God, and therefore WOT is a book not the word of the supreme being of your choice. Brandon was hired as the author to replace RJ, I am positive he is quite capable of seperating fanfiction from his job. To suggest otherwise is an insult to Brandon.

 

This has got to be some of the weirdest logic I have ever seen. For one thing, RJ said over and over again he was an Old Testament god when it came to his story and his characters. For another, he never read his own work, so it's silly to call him a 'fan' of it. He is the creator of it. Brandon is not, and never will be, and I don't think he would claim to be. Yes, he was hired to finish the book(s), but that doesn't make him the creator of the Wheel of Time. Brandon has said before that part of the problem with criticism of his work on the forums is that his defenders often take it too far. I think this would be one of those instances.

[reneyan]

fifty shades of grey started as fanfiction, Terez are you comparing Brandon's entries in wheel of time to that.

[MarkDiLillo]

fifty shades of grey started as fanfiction, Terez are you comparing Brandon's entries in wheel of time to that.

 

dude...nobody is talking about fifty shades of grey here but you

[Terez]

 

fifty shades of grey started as fanfiction, Terez are you comparing Brandon's entries in wheel of time to that.

 

dude...nobody is talking about fifty shades of grey here but you

 

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

PS—It would help if people would actually address the arguments being made rather than constructing straw men.

[Suttree]

I started reading Bakker and Cormac MCCarthy per guidance you suggested to someone else. While Bakker's writing was fine I thought the story was terrible and did not finish. I could not imagine anyone finding Cormac McCarthy at all enoyable to read, horrible.

As I replied to meeker while personnel preference is subjective, the quality of the work is not entirely. You yourself said to decide good or bad people must apply "educational analysis". Well guess what when people do that to Bakkers work critics and well regarded Lit professors say the quality of writing holds up outside of the fantasy genre. When they apply it to Cormac McCarthy he wins the Pulitzer for Literature and a MacArthur Fellowship. I will admit calling what some people consider to be the greatest living American author "horrible" made me crack a smile though.

 

Now again you don't need to analyze the books and I'm not sure why anyone would get defensive about not doing it. What you should do however is be prepared to support your opinion beyond well I just like it. Again it's fine if you do, it's just not a persuasive argument for the quality. Preference is fine but once you start disagreeing with the actual author and a Pulitzer Prize committee on quality then you can't really expect to be taken that seriously. Especially without giving concrete reasons as to why Brandon was wrong in his assessment.

 

Edit: It is entirely laughable saying RJ would have taken 5 books and that the timeline(another thing Brandon admits RJ was better at)was equally screwed. RJ said it would take one more book and while I don't think that would have happened the amount of filler in TGS and ToM shows it could have been done in one book comprised of two WH size volumes.

[MarkDiLillo]

ya my fault.  ill refrain.  i hadnt said anything for quite awhile now here because i couldnt help myself and just popped into the forums here and saw yet another topic about the whole debacle so i threw in some comments.

[Centauri25]

With regard to continuing sniping at Sanderson in discussions outside of here and "thisguy" - A thread like the the daily memories makes the point - many posts come form the standpoint of 'well, if we twist and bend this way, maybe it is not really a mistake'. On at least one of the recent memories, the first comment, made by a vocal sanderson dissident, was negative as to the writing. No comment on how the memory relates to the story. No comment on the mystery of what it means. Just a slam on the author. I am, sure I speak for others when I say I would rather discuss something exciting and interesting leading up to 1-8-13, rather than hash out another bash-a-thon. 

 

One side-note: I joined the series around LOC. At that time, RJ said he needed 2-3 more books to finish the story. As more books came out, he often said 2-3 more books. When the dying man said he needed just 1 more to finish, I think he was just keeping up his spirits for the fight, giving himself a goal so as not to give up. I don't see how a long-time fan of the series could give any credence to RJ saying he was almost done. To me, it feels rushed at 3 more. I am nervous that it will end well with a scant 900 pages or whatever left.

[Suttree]

With regard to continuing sniping at Sanderson in discussions outside of here and "thisguy" - A thread like the the daily memories makes the point - many posts come form the standpoint of 'well, if we twist and bend this way, maybe it is not really a mistake'. On at least one of the recent memories, the first comment, made by a vocal sanderson dissident, was negative as to the writing. No comment on how the memory relates to the story. No comment on the mystery of what it means. Just a slam on the author. I am, sure I speak for others when I say I would rather discuss something exciting and interesting leading up to 1-8-13, rather than hash out another bash-a-thon.

 

Maybe you are just unaware of it but there has been a large amount of work done by us to keep things in the proper threads. Your hyperbole in changing a one word off the cuff response about voice into a Brandon slam and bash-a-thon(case in point the responses did far more to derail the thread than that one word. As Barid said simply don't comment and you aren't part of the problem.) is pretty ridiculous. As anyone can attest I've never bashed Brandon and have been reasoned in my critique. Having said that it was a mistake and I apologize. It should stay in the proper thread, which any unbiased person will admit it has been lately. I also take exception to you comment with the one trick pony line. It only take a cursory glance at my content history to dispute that claim and as any old timer can attest I am constantly providing quotes etc to help move conversations along on a wide range of topics.

 

As for the number of books again look at all the filler in TGS and ToM(for that matter look at some of the prerelease material), neither of those books could be called rushed by any stretch of the imagination. One book, two WH sized volumes is certainly much more reasonable than five more books. KoD quite clearly had the pace going in the right direction ramping up towards the finish.

[Saken]

 

I started reading Bakker and Cormac MCCarthy per guidance you suggested to someone else. While Bakker's writing was fine I thought the story was terrible and did not finish. I could not imagine anyone finding Cormac McCarthy at all enoyable to read, horrible.

As I replied to meeker while personnel preference is subjective, the quality of the work is not entirely. You yourself said to decide good or bad people must apply "educational analysis". Well guess what when people do that to Bakkers work critics and well regarded Lit professors say the quality of writing holds up outside of the fantasy genre. When they apply it to Cormac McCarthy he wins the Pulitzer for Literature and a MacArthur Fellowship. I will admit calling what some people consider to be the greatest living American author "horrible" made me crack a smile though.

 

Now again you don't need to analyze the books and I'm not sure why anyone would get defensive about not doing it. What you should do however is be prepared to support your opinion beyond well I just like it. Again it's fine if you do, it's just not a persuasive argument for the quality. Again preference is fine but once you start disagreeing with the actual author and a Pulitzer Prize committee on quality then you can't really expect to be taken that seriously. Especially without giving concrete reasons as to why Brandon was wrong in his assessment.

 

Edit: It is entirely laughable saying RJ would have taken 5 books and that the timeline(another thing Brandon admits RJ was better at)was equally screwed. RJ said it would take one more book and while I don't think that would have happened the amount of filler in TGS and ToM shows it could have been done in one book comprised of two WH size volumes.

 

I am not trying to argue one way or the other so I don't really need to provide any evidence as to why I feel BS did a good or bad job. I maintain that everything is subjective so this thread and the one before are a waste of time. That is all I was trying to say in my original post.

 

I brought up Bakker and McCarthy because many people feel that their books are awesome and I didn't.  Personal preference. To be more specific, I started reading The Road which is what you said to start off with.  I felt that that book was horrible. I have not read anything else from him and so I cannot comment on any of his other books.  I may enjoy them, I don't know. I despise poetry.  I hated reading Shakespeare.  I may be in the minority, I don't know and it does not matter.

 

Both sides of the argument do the same thing.  "I really like BS's books" "Well that is because you are overlooking the massive amount of flaws."  "BS's books have a lot of flaws" "You are just being over critical."

 

If you like the books then great and if you don't, great.  Nothing is going to change.   People are different.  Read the book when it comes out and discuss it.

[Suttree]

If you like the books then great and if you don't, great. Nothing is going to change. People are different. Read the book when it comes out and discuss it.

QFT

 

Just to be clear my responses were mostly geared around your first "educational analysis" post concerning quality. Totally agree with what you say here. Good call...

[meeker]

Maybe you are just unaware of it but there has been a large amount of work done by us to keep things in the proper threads.

 

That may be true now but the last time there was a lot to actually discuss on the forums, when the first few chapters were released, you, Luckers and a few others went through pretty much every thread and de-railed them into bickering over the quality of the writing.  Even when threads were specifically created to avoid talking about the writing they were still ruined.  It is great that now that there is much less to talk about you are trying to clean things up but it feels hollow at this point.  You have done nothing to alter my enjoyment of the books, however, you have succusfully ruined my enjoyment of these forums at a time when I would have been visiting it more than ever before.

 

For the record I actually enjoy this particular thread.  I like hearing about why people did not like certain things and getting a new perspective.  I hated reading about it in every single thread that was trying to discuss something else.

 

Cleaning things up now is too little too late, especially when it was an admin that was the ringleader of much of what went on.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Mat is my favorite chracter.  I was very worried about BS taking over and 'ruining' him.

There a few lines, expressions, actions that irk me.   They're not quite right.


I think the major difference is that BS isn't as subtle, his characters don't have the same 'grey' that RJ's did.  They're not as complicated.

 

Although, I do think BS has a real good handle on Perrin.  His character seems to me to feelthe truest.


I think his writing is good, not perfect, but overall...people take it a bit too seriously.  It's not a perfect continuation/conclusion, but it's close enough to just sit back and enjoy.

 

 

(oh and I never noticed the Avi "Rand" vs. "Rand al'Thor" thing...if THAT is the kind of thing that really upsets you...you definitely need to take a step back.   You're too involved.)

[Stormofheaven]

I thought I would add my 2 cents to this discussion. I have been a long time reader of the wheel of time. I remember buying the shadow rising when it first came out as well as buying the dragon reborn when it came out. It feels like forever and honestly, can't even remember the date.

 

How do I feel about Sanderson? I do not think he is a very good author. IMO I think he did a poor job on the wheel of time. It feels more childish and the characters are not nearly as interesting as before. I have not the mistborn series, mainly, because I have no interest in it, so all I can go on for his talent is from this series.

 

 

However, I do think that Sanderson had a difficult time of it as well. He was thrust upon this series, which has a huge following, and was basically told to finish it off from these notes. Do I think that a Erikson or Martin, would have had same problems? Yes I do. ANd I think you would have the same people bringing up the same arguments. Jordan had his own way of writing, that was pecular to Jordan. It was detailed and the characterization was great. However, Jordan did have his faults. He couldn't write a good female character if his life depended on it. (Apart from Moiraine) I still despise that braid of Nynaeve and wish someone had cut it off.

 

 

So, I am on the fence. I am glad that the series is almost over. However, I wish they had gotten a better author to finish it off. Furthermore I think that they should have had a panel of experts, whether it be Lurkers, Terez and/or Big Bird, for all I care, but with people who know the series inside and out and who can advise Sanderson of the glaring problems in the series before it is released. This should have been done chapter to chapter with the problems being addressed early. That is it. For the most part I am just glad it's almost over.

[Ryan52]

Mat is my favorite chracter.  I was very worried about BS taking over and 'ruining' him.

 

There a few lines, expressions, actions that irk me.   They're not quite right.

 

 

 

I think one of the big things that makes Mat feel off to so many people is that much of his character served as a vehicle for RJ to relate his views and experiences on military life and war.  A life experience that Sanderson is obviously lacking and impacts his tone on the character.

[The Fisher King]

LOL - The biggest thing that saddens me in THIS thread is the frightening amount of peoples le who seem to have no idea what the words "subjective" and "objective" actually mean in the literary sense!!

 

 

 

 

Fish

[draborn88]

Well, still being an outsider looking in in regards to this forum, I think this place can definitely be intimidating for the newer members like myself.  It does seem a little better now, but when I first joined a couple months back, or at least when I first started visiting this forum a couple months back, you couldn't go into a dicussion without something about Brandon coming up.  It almost seemed like it was a cardinal sin to like TGS and ToM.  To be clear, I'm not saying those are actual views held by some of the members, just that that was how the aggressiveness of some of the posts came across as.  I think a factor in all that is time.  Eventually people are going to notice problems, it's bound to happen, and all the topics will stop being about the positives.  As a newer member though, I can definitely say that it sucked having joined the forum thinking there'd be loads of discussions about how great this series is only to have the most popular threads seem to be about Brandon and his issues.

 

 

 

A couple of pages ago some people brought up how readers could think TGS and ToM were the best books in the series and no reasoning behind this, so I thought I'd like to take a stab at it..  While they're not my favorite books in the series, I do quite like them.

 

Pacing-I know this is one of the positives of BS's books that people argue against, that the pacing hasn't really changed and isn't all that much different from KoD, but to me it actually is.  The pace of the last two books kind of feel a step faster.  Now whether that has to do with the nature of where the story is at or it possibly being a plus of Brandon's, I can't say.  I only know that this is what those books felt like.  If you had an issue with Robert Jordan's pacing (not that I did) then this would obviously be a step in the right direction for those readers.

 

Prose-Some people don't like how in your face BS can be with his writing which I can understand.  I have a bit of a better understanding about this now but even so, this isn't an issue that bothers me.  For what's it's worth, I need to occassionaly be hit with the blunt hammer to understand what I'm reading so that's probably why I'm okay with TGS and ToM.  Put simply, I read to read.  I don't care about prose or whether or not it's blunt or flowery.  Kind of crappy logic, I know, but if this sounds like you than BS is your man.

 

Re-readablity-Some bring this up, almost as if it's fact, that TGS and ToM have zero re-readability.  If there is one issue I have about the debate about Brandon's writing, then it's this one as to me, it can be based off nothing but opinion.  I had absolutely no problem re-reading these books.  Matter of fact, I enjoyed them just as much as I did the first time through.  A lot of times it's said that these last two books don't have much besides plot gratification, but there's obviously got to be more as I know I'm not the only one who's enjoyed re-reading TGS and ToM.  Maybe it's Rand's descent to evil or Perrin no longer being a punk, but I looked forward to re-reading these books as much as the others.  I just don't think this should be made out as fact if you're talking about the flaws of Brandon Sanderson.

 

I guess I'll leave it at that because I'm starting to get the feeling like I'm forgetting what I was talking about.  But yeah, I do think someone probably could've done a better job at this than me, I just thought I'd point out why some would really like BS's books.

[Stormofheaven]

For those who don't know the difference between objective and subjective.

 

Objective means looking at the facts in an unbiased way without bringing in emotions etc

Being subjective means that personal opinions, views emotions etc are taken into consideration.

 

Objective versus Subjective = Fact versus Opinion

 

[skalors3]

@Saken Perfect post.

 

@Stormofheaven Aside from a few quotes from BS, most complaints are subjective in nature. Even evidence provided is mostly opinion based on what they've interpreted during their reading. Take the argument for Cads being off with Tam. The only thing that is used to suggest (at least used with success) is a writeup on her done by a fan. While it is a great analysis, I absolutely disagree with her. I read Cads differently. That's one of many examples. While that discussion is coined as objective, it is no where near to it. I think there is a disconnect going on somewhere, because MOST of what I hear is subjective.

[The Fisher King]

An inarguable 90% of my issues with the Sanderson books are 100% objective.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

@Fisher I wasn't trying to say that one cannot find objective faults in the books. However, most of what I hear are subjective arguments cloaked under objectivity. In addition, allowing an objective fault to ruin an experience for you is subjective in nature.

[Suttree]

@Stormofheaven Aside from a few quotes from BS, most complaints are subjective in nature. Even evidence provided is mostly opinion based on what they've interpreted during their reading. Take the argument for Cads being off with Tam. The only thing that is used to suggest (at least used with success) is a writeup on her done by a fan. While it is a great analysis, I absolutely disagree with her. I read Cads differently. That's one of many examples. While that discussion is coined as objective, it is no where near to it. I think there is a disconnect going on somewhere, because MOST of what I hear is subjective.

Ok I'll bite. Especially given the mention of a disconnect as I really hope both sides can start gaining a better understanding as the debate evolves to avoid these types of straw men. Curious as to what you view most of the issues to be? Finding it odd the example you pick is one that is wholly subjective, no one has ever made the argument that it isn't no matter how vehemently they disagree with the scene. Even more so because you seem to imply the issue is with her characterization not the actual scene structure or plot work.

 

People can chime in if they disagree but the most frequent complaints to my mind usually cover timeline issues, mistakes, and polished prose. I guess I'm wondering where you are going with your post? Implying the issue are mostly subjective almost entirely ignores the fact that Team Jordan has admitted to the faults, they changed Brandon's writing process in an attempt to improve the polish and requested more time to catch mistakes and make sure they get this one "right". None of these things are really all that subjective.

 

At the end of the day I'm starting to see a fair amount of personnel preference entering the equation. It seems as if many people who love action in their fantasy and aren't all that concerned about prose and the overall quality say the problems don't bother them. It doesn't take away from their enjoyment which again is fine. Different people read literature for different reasons and personnel enjoyment is one of the most important things to be sure. What preference doesn't do however is weigh in either way on the overall quality of work. Hell I've love some books like The Black Company series that certainly wouldn't be considered examples of great literature.

[The Fisher King]

The things that I am maddest at Brandon about are:

 

1 Having Mat have to go all the way to the WT for the Horn.

 

2 Making Verin be Black.

 

3 Making Moiraine be gone so long.

 

4 Making Jain die.

 

5 Making Trollocs burn down Camelyn.

 

 

 

Fish