Luckers... Official on Brandon

[The Fisher King]

If Westerns - or slow pace - do not happen to be your thing then W&G is a tough one. Book five is tons of fun however and I love the first three immensely.

 

 

Fish

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

I think the first response labelling this thread as Luckers' meandering diatribe had it about right.

 

Chill, man! Go watch a Big Bash match or something.

[Terez]

Ah well, can't please everyone: My take on this is simply that Luckers and others saw this as a chance for them to put their own stamp on the Wheel of Time

 

That is so wrong, I don't have words for it.

[bigdoug1971]

Ummm..... I just wanted to chime in and say "Thank You" to everyone involved that finished the books. They took time from their lives and other projects to finish something I think we all enjoyed from Robert Jordan. I remember when he passed. I never met the man, but I remember feeling sadness, and foolish for feeling sad about someone I never knew. I also remember feeling selfish and quietly asking myself and my small circle of friends "What happens now? Will we ever know the end of the story?"

 

 

This could have all been left hanging with no ending. Years of debating what could have happened. Theories and ideas argued over what should (or could) have been. I read another post where someone said they would have been happy with the bullet notes and everything else we've gotten was just gravy on the top. I think I feel the same way about the whole situation.

 

 

I'm not complaining, defending, or trying to say anyone's opinion is right or wrong. Sometimes I think we all lose sight of the most important thing: The books are finished. They were completed by the people involved in the whole process including those who participated before RJ passed away. Everyone, including Brandon, took a mountain and tried to move it the very best they could without the original "architect".

 

 

Even though I haven't read AMOL yet, I'm happy with the results. Once again, thank you to everyone involved. We can all wish for what we want to happen in life, but as my dad always says: "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other then see which one fills up first". Hopefully, everyone gets some satisfaction and closure from the final book. Especially when we remember they didn't have to do any of it.

[shortkut]

I have a question regarding the betas:

 

Are the betas mentioned a lot in regards to ToM to show that they did not have a large issue with the timeline problems so BS and TJ assumed most readers would understand that some characters needed to play catch up?

[yoniy0]

Ah well, can't please everyone: My take on this is simply that Luckers and others saw this as a chance for them to put their own stamp on the Wheel of Time

That is so wrong, I don't have words for it.

 

 

I, too, would like to know who exactly it is who supposedly simply is reacting to having his expectations of being involved in the writing process shuttered.

[scraps18]

I would like to tell a quick story.

 

I love bloody Mary's. So yesterday in Chicago, I stopped to get a Bloody Mary. It wasnt great but I drank it anyway.

Why? Because even a bad Bloody Mary is better than none at all.

 

This is my opinion of the BS WOT books. I'm getting my fix of WOT when I could be getting nothing at all. Right? Agreed?

 

In the end, we're all CONSUMERS. We will consume anything WOT-related that comes out. Who's going to skip aMoL because they don't like the writing? I absolutely loathe BS style of writing (an opinion, nothing personal) but I will consume WoT in any fashion. I wish there were less continuuity errors, grammatical {foul) ups, and downright awful dialogue, but i'll sift through and get by.

 

Thanks. scraps18

 

PS I do want some more nudity in my WoT

[yoniy0]

Putting questions of WoT-nudity aside (we're PG13 here), I agree. I, for one, will not refrain from reading AMoL. That said, when did you ever hear of a consumer who wasn't expected to comment on the consumed commodity?

[Mr Ares]

I would like to tell a quick story. I love bloody Mary's. So yesterday in Chicago, I stopped to get a Bloody Mary. It wasnt great but I drank it anyway. Why? Because even a bad Bloody Mary is better than none at all. This is my opinion of the BS WOT books. I'm getting my fix of WOT when I could be getting nothing at all. Right? Agreed? In the end, we're all CONSUMERS. We will consume anything WOT-related that comes out. Who's going to skip aMoL because they don't like the writing? I absolutely loathe BS style of writing (an opinion, nothing personal) but I will consume WoT in any fashion. I wish there were less continuuity errors, grammatical {foul) ups, and downright awful dialogue, but i'll sift through and get by. Thanks. scraps18 PS I do want some more nudity in my WoT

Just because something is better than nothing, doesn't mean we should be willing to accept anything, no matter how little or how bad on those grounds. Something done right is better than something done wrong, after all. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask BS to do his best, and to be disappointed if it looks like he isn't, and that doesn't cancel out the gratitude felt for him finishing at all, and the hard work he did put in. It is possible to both be glad to get a bloody Mary and be disappointed that you couldn't get a good bloody Mary.

 

Most finales are terrible. Dark Tower was...Perfect.

 

Star Trey TNG - was excellent. That's about only good ones I can think of.

Star Trek: DS9 had a good finale, as did Angel and Blake's 7. In books, the First Law trilogy had an excellent finale. Prince of Nothing ended quite well as well.

[scraps18]

I would like to tell a quick story. I love bloody Mary's. So yesterday in Chicago, I stopped to get a Bloody Mary. It wasnt great but I drank it anyway. Why? Because even a bad Bloody Mary is better than none at all. This is my opinion of the BS WOT books. I'm getting my fix of WOT when I could be getting nothing at all. Right? Agreed? In the end, we're all CONSUMERS. We will consume anything WOT-related that comes out. Who's going to skip aMoL because they don't like the writing? I absolutely loathe BS style of writing (an opinion, nothing personal) but I will consume WoT in any fashion. I wish there were less continuuity errors, grammatical {foul) ups, and downright awful dialogue, but i'll sift through and get by. Thanks. scraps18 PS I do want some more nudity in my WoT

Just because something is better than nothing, doesn't mean we should be willing to accept anything, no matter how little or how bad on those grounds. Something done right is better than something done wrong, after all. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask BS to do his best, and to be disappointed if it looks like he isn't, and that doesn't cancel out the gratitude felt for him finishing at all, and the hard work he did put in. It is possible to both be glad to get a bloody Mary and be disappointed that you couldn't get a good bloody Mary.

 

Most finales are terrible. Dark Tower was...Perfect.

 

Star Trey TNG - was excellent. That's about only good ones I can think of.

Star Trek: DS9 had a good finale, as did Angel and Blake's 7. In books, the First Law trilogy had an excellent finale. Prince of Nothing ended quite well as well.

[scraps18]

Sorry I forgot to put in my reply. What you say makes no sense, Mr Ares. All we do is consume. We can criticize, complain, or remonstrate all we want. But to do any of this, you must first have to CONSUME something. Again this is nothing personal to anyone. Terez, Luckers, even BS, can come here and say anything they want. And thats awesome (personal attacks are a joke in a semi-anonymous forum, though). But the bottom line is that everyone here because they have read the WoT. Thats it. Everything after, good or bad, is simply opinion or drivel.

 

PS: Bloody Mary I had in Chicago was the equivalent of some of the dialogue in TGS: rancid, sour, left a bad taste.

[mbuehner]

The bigger the questions a story asks the more people are going to be upset with the ending. I liked BSG and Lost's endings, lots of people didn't. I always ask them- what did you expect? Did you really think Ron Moore was going to explain the secret of existence to you?  These are the fundamental questions of human existence that we've asked ourselves for all of history- they are explored, not answered. The problem is if your story really bangs on those fundamental (and fascinating) questions, fans are going to want a direct payoff, and there isn't one to give (and if you try you risk midichlorianizing your story).  People are going to be unhappy with this ending, that is a given. But once you accept that there very likely is not going to be a full explanation for existence, you can stop and smell the roses a bit and enjoy the ride a bit more.

 

[yoniy0]

(personal attacks are a joke in a semi-anonymous forum, though)

But as you've signed your consent to our code of conduct, you'll still refrain from engaging in them. As will everyone else.

Everything after, good or bad, is simply opinion or drivel.

Opinions, sure, but are you saying that debating the books and what's in them is nothing more than drivel? I'm afraid that's the reason the books boards exist. If you're more interesting in DM as a social avenue, you can take advantage of the boards dedicated to that instead. Making derogatory remarks about what we do in here is, however, not acceptable.

[Kevin Freeheart]

I'm rather forgiving as a reader.

First, this is RJ's universe and I consider everything he wrote to be legit. Including that time Rand found it weird that he couldn't sense Saidar in the stedding. There are two options in a case like this. Assume it's new information and ponder on it, or assume it's a typo and move on with the intent of the story. I've been surprised when things I've glossed over turned out to be relevant, but hey, that's part of the fun of being surprised.

I mean... we're reading a story about magic set in a universe that alludes to being our future. I can accept that within my suspension of disbelief, why can't X character do Y in a way that's out of the ordinary.

As to the Brandon vs RJ thing as writers. Nobody could ever have done as well as RJ. Both in the eyes of fans and for the series in a consistent tone. Then again, these are Young Adult books. I'm not exactly reading them because they're the foundation of English Literature.

For me, the change between Brandon and RJ's style is written off in my head in a very simple way. This is Loial's work, finished after the Last Battle, and documenting the Dragon Reborn. Because the world was in chaos, he had to do his best to gather the accounts since he wasn't around first hand to chronicle them.

It works for me, but then again, I'm a forgiving reader. But I'm damned sure to get a satisfying end to the Wheel of Time.

As to the fan involvement part... It neither enhances nor decreases my love for the series or any specific book in it. RJ would have never escaped the times and quite simply, "fandom" of all sorts has changed since the Eye of the World was published. Toward his death, RJ became the most directly involved with fans through his blog on DM but he was known to lurk in the forums. By contrast, Brandon had a word count indicating his progress, wrote a blog about writing the books, has had nearly every book signing he's attended audio and video recorded to be put up for dissection by fans, actively maintains a Facebook and Twitter presence. That we might FIND OUT that fans had impact on the series is simply easier today but it doesn't mean it's never happened. 

[Mr Ares]

Sorry I forgot to put in my reply. What you say makes no sense, Mr Ares. All we do is consume. We can criticize, complain, or remonstrate all we want. But to do any of this, you must first have to CONSUME something. Again this is nothing personal to anyone. Terez, Luckers, even BS, can come here and say anything they want. And thats awesome (personal attacks are a joke in a semi-anonymous forum, though). But the bottom line is that everyone here because they have read the WoT. Thats it. Everything after, good or bad, is simply opinion or drivel. PS: Bloody Mary I had in Chicago was the equivalent of some of the dialogue in TGS: rancid, sour, left a bad taste.

Of course what I say makes sense. If you have consumed something, you have a right to criticise the author for his deficiencies. And if those deficiencies are sufficient, even refrain from further consumption. And I expect that some people have found Sanderson's books sufficiently problematic that they won't read any more, they'll just read summaries in order to know what happens. I know some people found the same with RJ - they decided that enough was enough and they wouldn't consume any more. We have paid for these books. We demand our money's worth. Or we won't pay any more. If I didn't think these books were worth the price of a hardback, I'd wait for the paperback, or get it from the library, or try and getting a cheap second hand copy off Amazon. Make no mistake, if people hear the last book is bad, they will hold off on buying it, they will wait until they can get it cheaper, find another way to get the story, or even just cease consuming. We are consumers - but we will not be consumers forever and regardless fo what they give us to consume. If I don't like what I'm eating, I'll go to a different restaurant next time.

 

The bigger the questions a story asks the more people are going to be upset with the ending. I liked BSG and Lost's endings, lots of people didn't. I always ask them- what did you expect? Did you really think Ron Moore was going to explain the secret of existence to you?  These are the fundamental questions of human existence that we've asked ourselves for all of history- they are explored, not answered. The problem is if your story really bangs on those fundamental (and fascinating) questions, fans are going to want a direct payoff, and there isn't one to give (and if you try you risk midichlorianizing your story).  People are going to be unhappy with this ending, that is a given. But once you accept that there very likely is not going to be a full explanation for existence, you can stop and smell the roses a bit and enjoy the ride a bit more.

The problems people had with the ending to BSG did not revolve around Ron Moore failing to explain the secrets of existence to his audience, so much as fundamental plot points being set up and ignored, or resolved in unsatisfying ways, the padding, the characters doing things that made no sense, an epilogue that didn't really serve any purpose, and so on. Fans don't expect to learn the meaning of life, but why not answer things like why did Starbuck come back from the apparently dead, and then why did she vanish again? Why did Apollo think it was a good idea to throw the fleet into the sun? Why was there a scene involving chasing a pigeon around with a broom? These aren't deep spiritual questions. To ignore the problems people had with those finales - which what you're doing - isn't really helpful. People explained their dislike at the time in great depth - you can probably still find it if you look. If the ending to WoT is one felt to be disappointing, will you be asking what did you expect? Or will you actually read the problems people lay out?

[skalors3]

@Mr Ares If the ending is crap or amazing, I will come and post here for a day or two about missed theories or mis-guessed theories and I will never return. It is a book series and it will be over.

[yoniy0]

In light of that, how can you pass judgement on those of us who wish to discuss the quality of the work? Nobody said you have to care, but if you don't, why interfere with those that do?

 

Put differently, you have to choose: take part in the discussion or don't. Things will become boring very fast if you randomly decide when to counter with apathy instead of a real argument.

[The Fisher King]

Mr Ares - I didn't get to see DS9's finale and I have yet to read the First Law trilogy - but I hope to correct both things at some point.

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

@Fish

 

First Law ending was so smart. Extremely well done...

 

@Yoniy0

 

Well said.

[AlwaysLurking]

I find it amazing that I even want to post here......

 

However, with that said, I have to add my 2 cents in defense of Brandon Sanderson.

 

First, do I think that Robert Jordan was a better technical writer than Brandon Sanderson? Of course

Do I think that Robert Jordan was a better descriptive writer than Brandon Sanderson? Of course

 

Now onto why I have to post here.

 

I DO NOT CARE.  The ONLY thing I care about is my enjoyment of the story, and frankly, after book 3 I had almost completly lost interest.

When I read a story, I build the world in my mind the way I imagine it.  I don't need an author to define the minutia of the scene like RJ was so capable of doing. 

I read the Eye of the World within a month of publication, and after book 3 my free time was gone and I could see no end to this story in sight, I scanned each of the following books, but could never make myself read them.

 

Enter the Gathering Storm.  For some reason I was intrigued enough to give it a new chance, and wonder of wonders, I found a new favorite friend.

 

Somehow, after all this time, the series was alive again to me.  I realized that BS was not as polished or as adept at managing the world, but he somehow made it alive to me again.  I will admit that some of this was simply the vision of the end that now appeared on the horizon, but I had also found a new favorite Writer.

 

I think that those that are hammering away on Brandon's writing technique are completly missing the point.  I agree 100% that RJ was better at writing the WOT, but for me, Brandon is better at telling a Story that engages my imagination.  Brandon is not as good at flushing out his world, but what he does give me is just enough to allow me to build it, and that is how I enjoy to read my stories.  For me, Brandon's pacing is SOOO much better, that I could not put it down.  I had never had that trouble with any of the prior books except EotW, which is likely all that got me thru books 2 and 3.

 

Personnal Taste is what it is, and without Brandon, this reader would likely never have finished this series at all.  After reading TGS, I immediatly purchased the entire series again  and have read it 2x thru now.

 

On a different note, I can completly understand the frustration of all those used to looking thru RJ's words for buried treasure, the inconsistancies in Brandon's work has got to throw you off, what can you trust? was that intended or was it just Brandon?

 

There is no right or wrong here  Yes, RJ was better at writing WOT than Brandon, just not for me...... and that can't be disputed.  I respect your right to be taken out of the story by his writing style, but Brandon has opened this world back up for me, and I am not alone. 

 

Brandon, Thank you for your hard work and dedication in completing RJ's work and pulling me back into the world, I have enjoyed ALL of the books so much more, many for the first time.

[Suttree]

@AlwaysLurking

 

 

Glad to hear Brandon's writing brought you back to the WoT. What a cool story.

 

 

Quick question, did you largely skip all the books after TDR until TGS? If so I suggest you give them another shot. TSR and tFoH are almost universally cited as far and away the two best books in the series. I suspect many people like yourself found themselves intrigued once they knew the end was in sight. That combined with the increased pace of where we are in the story line at TGS can be a big draw. Hope it opens up the entire world for you to go back through and enjoy entirely. Cheers.

[AlwaysLurking]

I purchased all of the books again and have re-read them 2x since the TGS came out