Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Suttree]

 

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

 

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

 

 

 

Yet another thing I wanted to pull over from the strength/dexterity thread. Just to highlight the point made earlier as it seems to have slipped by most people who claim there is some mythical quick strike strength move that trumps all. Alivia had a huge strength advantage, she had an item of power that protects you from direct weaves, and Cyndane was still able to do the more physical damage due to her knowledge, dexterity and skills.

[Knivy]

 

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

 

 

Yet another thing I wanted to pull over from the strength/dexterity thread. Just to highlight the point made earlier as it seems to have slipped by most people who claim there is some mythical quick strike strength move that trumps all. Alivia had a huge strength advantage, she had an item of power that protects you from direct weaves, and Cyndane was still able to do the more physical damage due to her knowledge, dexterity and skills.

 

 

You cant really translate to a Eggy vs Nyn fight.  The experience/knowledge advantage was infinity greater than between Eggy and Nyn.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

 

 

Yet another thing I wanted to pull over from the strength/dexterity thread. Just to highlight the point made earlier as it seems to have slipped by most people who claim there is some mythical quick strike strength move that trumps all. Alivia had a huge strength advantage, she had an item of power that protects you from direct weaves, and Cyndane was still able to do the more physical damage due to her knowledge, dexterity and skills.

 

At the very least, this kind of destroys the idea that a strike from someone stronger cannot be defended against. Whether Alivia threw fireballs or huge explosions at Cyndane, the fact that Cyndane could cut those weaves implies... dun dun dun... cutting weaves is not a matter of strength. Cyndane cut off weaves coming from a person channeling at least four times as much as she was. The difference between Egwene and Nynaeve is far, far less than that.

 

Knivy: take note.

[Suttree]

You cant really translate to a Eggy vs Nyn fight.  The experience/knowledge advantage was infinity greater than between Eggy and Nyn.

Just as the strength advantage between Nyn/Eggy is FAR less. All I was really doing was dispelling once and for all the "quick strike" strength move that a couple poster in this thread have fabricated. See Fionwe's post above...

[John Everyman]

The gap between Nynaeve and Egwene is less than that of Alivia and Cyndane, true, but Sultree makes an excellent point on Nynaeve vs Moghedien.  Egwene has shown to be a very quick study and seems to be very adept at the more "techical" side of channeling.  Plus, I read that in one of the later books she's able to handle 14 weaves at once, something no one I'm aware of has equalled (closest I know of is Rand doing a dozen.  You could argue that he could do more since he was doing that unknowingly, but Rand can often cheat, since Lews Therin's memories sometimes slip in to help him). 

 

I have no doubt Nynaeve will grow to be dexterous, being a healer and all, but I wouldn't be surprised if Egwene remains superior in that regard.

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

I dont think that the 'juggling weaves' bit fits under the proper form of pressure that we are relating too. That is all pressure from the inside that she is trying to do something to prove it type deal.

 

Being innovative while being under the pressure of fighting for your life is much different and much more important. Which she has not shown any inventiveness at, although arguably during the ToM Mesaana fight she did show some, but I attribute that more to Perrin flat out showing her that the mind is the best weapon than to inventiveness on her part.

 

 

This, I debated including the TAR stuff, but as you said that's about the mind, much more than anything else.

 

(Doesn't detract from the skill she shows)

 

I actually dislike how that played out, it just seemed contrived with how she reacted the entire series to Adam, with her nightmares and such about it, then she gets one put on and in 3.2 seconds she is over it.

 

 

I'm not to bothered by this - Perrin showed Eg that the mind was more powerful than the Power in TAR and she used it.  We see this with Nyn and Daigian (sp?) in tGS when Nyn comes up with her philosophy on AS that she tells Eg in ToM.  Additionally Eg has had weeks(? - not sure of timeline) as a prisoner being treated very badly, her mind set has changed because of this.

 

 

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

 

 

Yet another thing I wanted to pull over from the strength/dexterity thread. Just to highlight the point made earlier as it seems to have slipped by most people who claim there is some mythical quick strike strength move that trumps all. Alivia had a huge strength advantage, she had an item of power that protects you from direct weaves, and Cyndane was still able to do the more physical damage due to her knowledge, dexterity and skills.

 

 

Genuine question here.  In a sul'dam/damane pair who weaves?  I always thought it was the sul'dam, based on when Nyn is with Moggy I'm sure she says that it's difficult to learn new stuff as Nyn has to weave, but Moggy has to say what happens?  In TAR with the fire against Rahvin Nyn is certainly weaving, but that may be down to TAR working the way you believe it's going to work.

 

But the 2 sul'dam with Mat don't seem to know anything, but is that because they don't know how to use their own Power or something?  And one of the AS says that Alivia knows every destructive weave possible.

 

So the point is, Alivia has been channeled through for 400 years(?), but it's possible that she's actually only been channeling for a couple of months.  Additionally Cyndane has the knowledge of the AoL behind her.  Their's a very large strength difference between the 2, their's also a very large knowledge gap and potentially a very large skill gap.  So yes, dexterity (skill & knowledge) overcomes strength, but the difference between Cyndane and Alivia is much greater in all of these than the difference between Nyn & Eg.

 

 

 

Additionally Sutt - Eg innovative in battle?, an example of her duelling (to show experience)?  :)  Or do I win those points? :D

[John Everyman]

My interpretation is that it's definitely the damane who form the weaving (remember, the suldam are terrified when the Aes Sedai try to show them that they can see the weaving), it's just the adam makes it to where a damane cannot form a weave without the suldam's permission.  Should be noted that that comes mostly from my memory of The Great Hunt, where the damane/suldam bond is explained the most (considering it happens directly to a main character)

 

As for Alivia, Cadsuane remarks that she would have known practically every way to destroy something, but almost nothing else.  So yes, she's not very knowledgeable.  When it comes to channeling, Alivia's a blunt hammer. 

[BFG]

My interpretation is that it's definitely the damane who form the weaving (remember, the suldam are terrified when the Aes Sedai try to show them that they can see the weaving), it's just the adam makes it to where a damane cannot form a weave without the suldam's permission.  Should be noted that that comes mostly from my memory of The Great Hunt, where the damane/suldam bond is explained the most (considering it happens directly to a main character)

 

As for Alivia, Cadsuane remarks that she would have known practically every way to destroy something, but almost nothing else.  So yes, she's not very knowledgeable.  When it comes to channeling, Alivia's a blunt hammer. 

 

It's not that simple unfortunately:

 

Lord of Chaos

On her left wrist Nynaeve wore a slender bracelet, a simple segmented silver band. Mainly silver, anyway, and from a special source, though that made no difference. It was the only piece of jewelry she wore aside from the Great Serpent ring; Accepted were firmly discouraged from wearing much jewelry. A matching necklace snugged around the neck of the fourth woman, on a stool against the rough-plastered wall with her hands folded in her lap. Clad in a farmer’s rough brown wool, with a farmer’s worn sturdy face, she did not sweat a drop. She did not move a muscle either, but her dark eyes watched everything. To Nynaeve, the radiance of saidarsurrounded her, but it was Nynaeve who directed the channeling. Bracelet and necklace created a link between them, much in the way Aes Sedai could link to combine their power. Something about "absolutely identical matrices" was involved, according to Elayne, after which the explanation truly became incomprehensible. In truth, Nynaeve did not think Elayne understood half as much as she pretended. For herself, Nynaeve did not understand at all, except that she could feel the other woman’s every emotion, feel the woman herself, but tucked away in a corner of her head, and that all the other woman’s grasp of saidarwas in her control.

 

Here Ny is clearly in control and doing the weaving in control of the adam, this is before her blocks'd gone, she can't channel unless angry and she's not angry.  And this is the clearest explanation I've found to explain what happens.

 

Knife of Dreams

 “Try to embrace saidar,” she drawled, stern eyes steady on Joline. Her voice was quite mild in comparison to her gaze, yet plainly she expected obedience. Obedience? She looked a bloody leopard staring at three tethered goats. And strangely, more beautiful than ever. A beautiful leopard who might rake him with her claws as soon as the goats. Well, he had faced a leopard a few times before this, and those were his own memories. There was an odd sort of exhilaration that came with confronting a leopard. “Go ahead,” she went on. “You know the shield is gone.” Joline gave a small grunt of surprise, and Tuon nodded. “Good. You’ve obeyed for the first time. And learned that you cannot touch the Power while you wear the adam unless I wish it. But now, I wish you to hold the Power, and you do. though you didn’t try to embrace it.” Joline’s eyes widened slightly, a small crack in her calm. “And now,” Tuon went on, “I wish you not to be holding the Power, and it is gone from you. Your first lessons.” Joline drew a deep breath. She was beginning to look… not afraid, but uneasy.

 

To me this is saying that Tuon is controlling Joline even embracing the source (which we know from tGH and Eggy (I think)

 

Joline took up the story. “Bethamin channeled. I’ve never before seen the weave she used, but for a few moments, until she lost the Source, she had sparks dancing all over the three of us. I think she may have used as much of the Power as she could draw.”

Sobs suddenly racked Bethamin. She sagged, halfway to falling to the floor. “I didn’t mean to,” she wept, shoulders shaking, face contorted. “I thought you were going to kill me. but I didn’t mean to. I didn’t.” Seta began rocking back and forth, staring at her friend in horror. Or perhaps her former friend. They both knew a’dam could hold them, and maybe any sul’dam, but they might well have denied the full import. Any woman who could use an a’dam could learn to channel. Likely they had tried as hard as they could to deny that hard fact, to forget it. Actually channeling altered everything, however.

and he learned from Mistress Anan that the Seanchan woman put her hands over her eyes whenever Joline or Edesina was teaching Bethamin in the wagon.

   “I’m certain she can see the weaves.” Setalle said. He would have said she sounded envious except that he doubted she envied anyone. “She’s halfway to admitting it, or she wouldn’t hide her eyes. Soon or late, she’ll come around and want to learn, too.” Maybe she did sound envious at that.

 

In a different discussion I've speculated that the adam will only hold sul'dam that can 'see' the weaves while unlinked, although they clearly must be able to sense the weaves as sul'dam when linked.

 

The only way I can make all this work in my head is that the sul'dam somehow sense and control the weaves.  Their difficulty channeling on their own is two-fold, first they can't embrace the source themselves.  Second I'm not sure they can see the weaves when they start as sul'dam, so the way they've 'learnt' to channel is somehow corrupted. 

 

The damane do not control the weaves, but see what the sul'dam weave using their power.  This suggests that Alivia knows the weaves because she's seen them for 400 years, but has no experience weaving them herself, which explains why she's so clumsy.

 

I'm not fixed on this explanation, so if anyone else has any suggestions that would be great.

[John Everyman]

Right, I read that as the suldam is the one who directs the channeling (the direction of it, the target, perhaps the magnitude of the weave and maybe even the particular weave), but the damane is the one who actually forms  the weave.  I'm under the impression that a damane can do absolutely nothing unless a suldam wishes it, but let's say the suldam wants a fireball; that suldam would mentally "tell" the damane to use a fireball, and even controll the direction, but the actual creation of the fireball would be done by the damane.   I suppose a decent comparison would be the relationship between a blacksmith and the blacksmith's customer.  The customer, if they want something particular, will set out the exact specifications to follow, but it's the blacksmith that's ultimately in charge of forming the final product, even if the image of the final product is dictated by the customer.

 

I suppose my interpretation of it could also be comparable to linking.  The head of a circle isn't forming the power, just directing it and refining it.

 

So, when Alivia was unleashed, I think she "knew" how to form almost all of the destructive weaves she had ever used. 

[BFG]

I agree that Alivia 'knew' how to form the weaves, I'm not convinced she'd ever done so. 

 

I've watched my Mum bake 100 cakes, technically I know how to bake a cake, but the first one I baked was rubbish. 

 

I guess I view the sul'dam as using the damane like an angreal, just drawing power from them, but forming the weaves themselves.  On further thought from my previous post, I suspect that the reason why Bethamin struggled was just that she hadn't channeled herself before.

 

Morgase in KoD

“I might spend all day trying to embrace the Source and never succeed,” the sun-haired woman said in dull tones. She stood slumped, staring at nothing. Her face suggested that she saw an abyss beneath her feet. “And if I do embrace it, I can almost never weave anything.”

 

LoC

but it was Nynaeve who directed the channeling

 

Unless someone has another example of the adam link in the books or a quote from RJ or BS that says different, I'm going to stick with the suldam does the weaving, using the damane as an angreal - in the same way that a circle works for AS - the AS leading the circle makes and controls the weaves, the adam is described as a corruption of this, but I understand the corruption to be in how the circle is made (ie entirely involuntary) than anything else.

[Suttree]

On the contrary I almost entirely certain that those sul'dam who shape the weaves themselves are very rare. Can someone else help me out here?

 

As for them seeing the weaves per RJ we know it is practically impossible to channel if you are blind. A sul'dam would not be able to shape them without being able to see. The block they develop is actually the opposite because they convince themselves they aren't seeing anything when they begin to.

[BFG]

Perhaps these posts should be shifted to a new thread - don't want to derail this one and it could go on a while.

 

Sutt, instantdeath - that was my original thought, it was just rereading the bit with Nyn made me wonder if it was something else.  It could be that Nyn isn't using it properly as they don't know how. 

 

tGH

  "Perhaps it is time to see what she can do," Renna said, studying Egwene. "Do you have enough control yet to channel at that distance?" She pointed to a tall oak standing alone on a hilltop.
   Egwene frowned at the tree, perhaps half a mile from the line followed by the soldiers and Suroth's palanquin. She had never tried anything much beyond arm's reach, but she thought it might be possible. "I don't know," she said.
   "Try," Renna told her. "Feel the tree. Feel the sap in the tree. I want you to make it all not only hot, but so hot that every drop of sap in every branch flashes to steam in an instant. Do it."

 

This certainly implies that she expects Eg to make the weave, but she never actually does it.  Maybe it is just Nyn and Elayne ignoring everyting Eg told them about the adam *shrugs*
 

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Genuine question here.  In a sul'dam/damane pair who weaves?  I always thought it was the sul'dam, based on when Nyn is with Moggy I'm sure she says that it's difficult to learn new stuff as Nyn has to weave, but Moggy has to say what happens?  In TAR with the fire against Rahvin Nyn is certainly weaving, but that may be down to TAR working the way you believe it's going to work.

 

But the 2 sul'dam with Mat don't seem to know anything, but is that because they don't know how to use their own Power or something?  And one of the AS says that Alivia knows every destructive weave possible.

 

So the point is, Alivia has been channeled through for 400 years(?), but it's possible that she's actually only been channeling for a couple of months.  Additionally Cyndane has the knowledge of the AoL behind her.  Their's a very large strength difference between the 2, their's also a very large knowledge gap and potentially a very large skill gap.  So yes, dexterity (skill & knowledge) overcomes strength, but the difference between Cyndane and Alivia is much greater in all of these than the difference between Nyn & Eg.

In a damae sul'dam pair, who weaves depends on experience. A very experienced sul'dam like Tuon can not only see weaves, they can even direct the channeling like the leader of any circle can. This is how Nynaeve does it. However, even when Nynaeve is holding an a'dam on Moghedien, there are times when Moghedien is given control so she can demonstrate weaves. This is how it happens with sul'dam and damane when the sul'dam isn't experienced enough. For example, in tGH, it was Egwene who had to do all the weaving. She was only given orders on what to do.

 

With Alivia, she likely had tons of different sul'dam, some of whom would have taken care of the weaving themselves. But in her 400 years, she's also likely to have done the weaving herself tons of times. Hence Cadsuane's comment that she knows of almost every way to destroy something.

 

And yes, the skill difference between Alivia and Cyndane is much greater than between Egwene and Nynaeve. But Cyndane also had a much larger strength difference to make up for, than Egwene will have to with Nynaeve!

 

 

 

 

Additionally Sutt - Eg innovative in battle?, an example of her duelling (to show experience)?  :)  Or do I win those points? :D

 

I believe these have been laid out already? Egwene invented stilling for herself in the middle of a "duel". And she innovated with the anti-eavesdropping ward to draw in her adversaries. We've also seen her cleverly use the anti-eavesdropping ward to silence her footsteps in the midst of battle. 

[BFG]

 

 

 

Genuine question here.  In a sul'dam/damane pair who weaves?  I always thought it was the sul'dam, based on when Nyn is with Moggy I'm sure she says that it's difficult to learn new stuff as Nyn has to weave, but Moggy has to say what happens?  In TAR with the fire against Rahvin Nyn is certainly weaving, but that may be down to TAR working the way you believe it's going to work.

 

But the 2 sul'dam with Mat don't seem to know anything, but is that because they don't know how to use their own Power or something?  And one of the AS says that Alivia knows every destructive weave possible.

 

So the point is, Alivia has been channeled through for 400 years(?), but it's possible that she's actually only been channeling for a couple of months.  Additionally Cyndane has the knowledge of the AoL behind her.  Their's a very large strength difference between the 2, their's also a very large knowledge gap and potentially a very large skill gap.  So yes, dexterity (skill & knowledge) overcomes strength, but the difference between Cyndane and Alivia is much greater in all of these than the difference between Nyn & Eg.

In a damae sul'dam pair, who weaves depends on experience. A very experienced sul'dam like Tuon can not only see weaves, they can even direct the channeling like the leader of any circle can. This is how Nynaeve does it. However, even when Nynaeve is holding an a'dam on Moghedien, there are times when Moghedien is given control so she can demonstrate weaves. This is how it happens with sul'dam and damane when the sul'dam isn't experienced enough. For example, in tGH, it was Egwene who had to do all the weaving. She was only given orders on what to do.

 

With Alivia, she likely had tons of different sul'dam, some of whom would have taken care of the weaving themselves. But in her 400 years, she's also likely to have done the weaving herself tons of times. Hence Cadsuane's comment that she knows of almost every way to destroy something.

 

And yes, the skill difference between Alivia and Cyndane is much greater than between Egwene and Nynaeve. But Cyndane also had a much larger strength difference to make up for, than Egwene will have to with Nynaeve!

 

 

 

 

Additionally Sutt - Eg innovative in battle?, an example of her duelling (to show experience)?  :)  Or do I win those points? :D

 

I believe these have been laid out already? Egwene invented stilling for herself in the middle of a "duel". And she innovated with the anti-eavesdropping ward to draw in her adversaries. We've also seen her cleverly use the anti-eavesdropping ward to silence her footsteps in the midst of battle. 

 

Agree full-heartedly that the skills and strength gap are both much bigger between Alivia and Cyndane than Eg and Nyn. 

 

Not trying to be dense, but when were they?  If you could link the posts they were originally quoted in, or direct me to a book?  Cheers.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

Genuine question here.  In a sul'dam/damane pair who weaves?  I always thought it was the sul'dam, based on when Nyn is with Moggy I'm sure she says that it's difficult to learn new stuff as Nyn has to weave, but Moggy has to say what happens?  In TAR with the fire against Rahvin Nyn is certainly weaving, but that may be down to TAR working the way you believe it's going to work.

 

But the 2 sul'dam with Mat don't seem to know anything, but is that because they don't know how to use their own Power or something?  And one of the AS says that Alivia knows every destructive weave possible.

 

So the point is, Alivia has been channeled through for 400 years(?), but it's possible that she's actually only been channeling for a couple of months.  Additionally Cyndane has the knowledge of the AoL behind her.  Their's a very large strength difference between the 2, their's also a very large knowledge gap and potentially a very large skill gap.  So yes, dexterity (skill & knowledge) overcomes strength, but the difference between Cyndane and Alivia is much greater in all of these than the difference between Nyn & Eg.

In a damae sul'dam pair, who weaves depends on experience. A very experienced sul'dam like Tuon can not only see weaves, they can even direct the channeling like the leader of any circle can. This is how Nynaeve does it. However, even when Nynaeve is holding an a'dam on Moghedien, there are times when Moghedien is given control so she can demonstrate weaves. This is how it happens with sul'dam and damane when the sul'dam isn't experienced enough. For example, in tGH, it was Egwene who had to do all the weaving. She was only given orders on what to do.

 

With Alivia, she likely had tons of different sul'dam, some of whom would have taken care of the weaving themselves. But in her 400 years, she's also likely to have done the weaving herself tons of times. Hence Cadsuane's comment that she knows of almost every way to destroy something.

 

And yes, the skill difference between Alivia and Cyndane is much greater than between Egwene and Nynaeve. But Cyndane also had a much larger strength difference to make up for, than Egwene will have to with Nynaeve!

 

 

 

 

Additionally Sutt - Eg innovative in battle?, an example of her duelling (to show experience)?  :)  Or do I win those points? :D

 

I believe these have been laid out already? Egwene invented stilling for herself in the middle of a "duel". And she innovated with the anti-eavesdropping ward to draw in her adversaries. We've also seen her cleverly use the anti-eavesdropping ward to silence her footsteps in the midst of battle. 

 

Agree full-heartedly that the skills and strength gap are both much bigger between Alivia and Cyndane than Eg and Nyn. 

 

Not trying to be dense, but when were they?  If you could link the posts they were originally quoted in, or direct me to a book?  Cheers.

 

The stilling was in the end of tDR. Nynaeve later tries to use that weave in her battle with Moghedien. 

 

The anit-eavesdropping ward being modulated to lure people, and to silence footsteps was both in ToM. The first was when Egwene met Elayne and Nynaeve in TAR. The second was during the battle with the Black Ajah in the Tower.

[Suttree]

And yes, the skill difference between Alivia and Cyndane is much greater than between Egwene and Nynaeve. But Cyndane also had a much larger strength difference to make up for, than Egwene will have to with Nynaeve!

 

This....

[sleepinghour]

Huh? Making cuendiallr is a weave, not a Talent. And it depends on great strength in Earth.

 

Incidentally, someone asked RJ about that.

 

Isabel: Will Nynaeve be able to make cuendillar?

Robert Jordan: I doubt it, it is as much talent as it is strength. And I don't think she has that talent.

[Suttree]

For general frame of reference "talent" is used two ways in the WoT...

 

 Luckers

It can, and is, applied in two ways. The first is in a natural-state ability, such as Foretelling, seeing ta'veren, Dreaming, etc. The second is where a person can place the same weave to greater effect than another. So, Nynaeve could make the Healing weave, place it, and fix almost anything, whilst Egwene could make that exact same weave and barely heal a bruise. The weave still works, but in a reduced capacity. Romanda is another interesting example, as she has great Talent in the old style of Healing, but very little in the new.

That second usage applies to any weave which works in that way--where it has greater or lesser effect depending on who wove it. Other examples that have been used and cited are weather weaving, shielding (Berowin and either Falion or Ispan has a Talent for Shielding, as per RJ, and there are others who do as well), Traveling, apparently, with regards to Androl, and others besides.

From there, no, Healing has nothing to do with Compulsion. The point was in the nature of how the usage of the word Talent is applied to Healing--specifically on a skill-strata. Ergo, given we percieve the same skill strata within the use of compulsion (i.e. that simply knowing weaving the webs is not enough to result in a similar effect, and that one person placing it can have greater effect than another (which we know to be the case from Moghedien), then by the usage Compulsion is a Talent just the same as Healing. The same skill strata can be observed with Mirror of Mists (though it has never been directly commented on by a character, we have seen some that have a Talent for Illusion--notably Lanfear and to a degree Semirhage).

Essentially, if someone is able to do above and beyond with a Weave, they've a Talent. It's how the word works.

[fionwe1987]

 

Huh? Making cuendiallr is a weave, not a Talent. And it depends on great strength in Earth.

 

Incidentally, someone asked RJ about that.

 

Isabel: Will Nynaeve be able to make cuendillar?

Robert Jordan: I doubt it, it is as much talent as it is strength. And I don't think she has that talent.

 

Hmmm... thanks for that. Its interesting that this description was never given in CoT, where Egwene described the weave and who can do it in pretty good detail.

[Nightstrike]

Egwene is strong in all 5 elements, and she's also got the Talent of searching for ores. Nynaeve's also strong in all 5 elements, but she's got other Talents (like healing, which requires both dexterity and some ability with all 5 elements). Duelling's never been mentioned as a Talent, and I think strength is the key factor in most situations when it comes to duelling.

[Suttree]

Nynaeve's also strong in all 5 elements, but she's got other Talents (like healing, which requires both dexterity and some ability with all 5 elements).

Proof?

[Nightstrike]

Well, she can perform the Healing weaves that requires all 5 elements, for instance. She's used other weaves quite efficently too, Everything from Gateways to Balefire. I believe Balefire is another that requires all 5.

[Suttree]

Well, she can perform the Healing weaves that requires all 5 elements, for instance. She's used other weaves quite efficently too, Everything from Gateways to Balefire. I believe Balefire is another that requires all 5.

Nah...having a talent in healing/using all 5 does not make one strong in all 5 elements. This is yet another statement from the Nyn crowd that does not have evidence to support it. No need to continue the discussion until quotes are provided as was done for Egwene.

[fionwe1987]

Well, she can perform the Healing weaves that requires all 5 elements, for instance. She's used other weaves quite efficently too, Everything from Gateways to Balefire. I believe Balefire is another that requires all 5.

Using all Five Powers is not the same as requiring strength in all five. For example, the old style Healing used Air, Water and Spirit, but per to glossary:

 

Performing certain acts with the One Power requires ability in one or more of the Five Powers. For example, starting or controlling a fire requires Fire, and affecting the weather requires Air and Water, while Healing requires Water and Spirit.

 

So even though Air is used in the weave, ability with Air is not critical.

[Nightstrike]

Healing weaves do require all 5, and Egwene can't do it. Balefire does also require all 5.