Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Emily_Sedai]

Still can't believe that this went on for 5 pages, just for saying that I think an example was a poor example. That's probably the best part of all of this ;)

[Suttree]

Still can't believe that this went on for 5 pages, just for saying that I think an example was a poor example. That's probably the best part of all of this ;)

Ha...seriously!

[WMBunt]

What I've learned in 21 pages:

Egwene is a nit-wit who can accomplish nothing without the other characters telling her how to do it.

Nynaeve is so god-like she invented weaves that have been around for Ages and Ages and is so good she will probably wind up being revealed to be the Creator and actually stand in for Rand at Shayol Ghoul and defeat the Dark One in battle. She's the only thing Chuck Norris fears.

Hyperbole. Have fun with it. :-)

[Vardar]

Vardamus: On what Egwene said about Moghedien... shall we look at the actual quotes?

 

 

Thrusting her head and the lantern into "Marigan's" tiny tent, she found it empty. The blankets that made up the pallet on the ground lay in a sprawl, tossed aside by someone in a hurry. 

And what if she had still been here? she wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

First and foremost, Egwene is berating herself for rushing into the tent. If Moghedien had been in there, and freed, she could indeed have killed Egwene. Egwene had no defenses set up, and she certainly didn't go in holding the Power. She'd have been surprised, and would have been killed or captured with ease. This has nothing to do with strength.

 

Secondly, at this point, Egwene was not at her full potential. That makes all the difference in her assessment of her chances. In ToM, when she has reached her potential, she is confident of being able to face Mesaana. 

 

"How should I have explained to anyone why they were supposed to watch my serving woman? For that matter, what good would it have done? It had to be one of the Forsaken. Do you really think Faolain and Theodrin together could have stopped him? I'm not sure I could have, even linked with Romanda and Lelaine." They were the next two strongest women in the camp, as strong in the Power as Siuan used to be.

 

Note Egwene's language here. First thing to note is that she's talking about facing a male Foresaken. Secondly, she's saying she's not sure she could have faced him, even linked with Romanda and Lelaine. But we know her assessment is wrong. Eben, Daigian and Beldeine did do so, and while we don't exactly know where Eben stands with respect to Egwene, he can't far outstrip her because he was never remarked as a particularly powerful Asha'man. On the other hand Daigian was markedly weaker than either Lelaine or Romanda, and Beledeine is weaker, though by a smaller amount. And of course, Daigian's circle had the advantage of being mixed gender. However you parse it, though, Daigian's circle at best matches the one Egwene was proposing, and had Eben dying. If they could beat back Halima, Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine certainly could.

 

Now, to the question of where dexterity has won over strength. First of all, RJ has said it does straight out. If you want to disagree, you're disagreeing with a direct quote from the creator of the series. 

 

Secondly, here's an example of where skill/dexterity end up matching strength:

 

Naeff nodded. The two of them strode forward, creating wind. They shattered buildings, causing them to burst and fall. Naeff was far more skilled at the process than she, but Nynaeve was stronger in the One Power. Together, they swept the crumbling buildings, stones and husks before them in a dust storm.

 

To achieve the same effect, Nynaeve uses her strength, but Naeff uses his greater skill. This matches exactly what RJ said, about dexterity making up for lower volume of the One Power drawn. You can achieve the same effect with less of the Power if you're skilled at the job. 

Naeff was also particularly strong in air. So your comment loses a lot of its punch. Eggy was confident about facing messy in TAR. Not the real world. As to your quotes, you left off the one of her claiming Ny could have handled that situation.

[Vardar]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't see much point in this thread. Wasn't Nynaeve about as strong as Egwene and Elayne combined? Moreover she's more experienced at fighting channellers as well and she's even more dexterious in terms of the complexity of her weaves as I recall. There was I believe some comment about Egwene and Elayne being awed by Nynaeve's complex Healing weaves. Besides I think there is a direct corelation between strength and dexterity anyways. The stronger one is the easier it is to split the flows in different ways and channel several things at the same time.

 

From what we've seen, baring a very great difference in experience the stronger one almost always wins in a straight up fight between same sex opponents. Dexterity and tactics only really counts when the strength of both sides is roughly even. And Nynaeve winning against Moggy does make sense regardless since Moggy never had much experience in fighting fairly. She always struck from hiding once that advantage was lost she didn't have any significant advantage in experience over Nynaeve.

 

There seems to be a never-ending flood of these. Sheesh.

 

 

  

It really is quite baffling how pull keep pulling things out of their ass on this topic. The reasonable posters in the discussion BFG, Ares etc. seem to be finding a common ground. Then we continue to have these outliers that seem to be just fabricating what they want their ideal of Nyn to be along with how fighting works.

 

 

 

  

 

Yeah yeah Suttree, honestly I really don't give a damn what you think whenever a thread is in any way related to Egwene.

 

All I did was voice my opinion and one which I think is grounded in what we've seen in the books. And from what we have seen it's a simple fact that the first determining factor of the outcome in any battle of the OP atleast when it is two of the same sex is strength. Stronger people learn quicker, they can split their flows better and in more ways, they are far more intuitive when it comes to channelling etc. That's all there is to it. That is my opinion and it won't change at this point.

This is a who would win in a fight thread, which are basically the lowest of the low other than pairing threads. There is no point in arguing or finding common ground with your own coterie of posters since this is a completely hypothetical situation where everyone's opinion is equally valid, by which I mean not at all. So even if you got twenty people with a combined number of posts in the millions disagreeing with me it wouldn't bother me in the least.

It is not true that all opinions are equally valid. Opinions backed up by evidence are worth more than those without. Opinions with strong reasoning behind them are worth more than those without. You feel your opinion is rooted in the facts from the books. Others disagree - and there is a significant amount of evidence and reasoning apparent in the thread already that doesn't really support your conclusion. You are free to voice your opinion, but it's not worth as much as the opinions that add something to the debate, regardless of which side they are debating for.

 

Question for 'your side' though: say things played out differently, and Nyn responded to Tal by making her think she was being set on fire (ie, Nyn uses a web to warm the area around her or something like that.) Tal freaks, and gets shielded. Would you attribute Nyn's victory to her skill with fire and state that will always turn the tide of a 1 v 1 fight?

 

I know that this wasn't directed at me, but my reply to it would be the same as my earlier reply to you. It takes smarts to think of that, but skill to carry it out. If Nynaeve had less skill with fire, it might be that she is incapable of doing that in an efficient way, and so it takes more effort than it should and leads to her defeat. Or perhaps she doesn't have the necessary fine control, and ends up severely burning Talaan (still, a win is a win). Talaan used both good tactics and dexterity to win. If she lacked the dexterity to do those things, then she would have lost, or would have had to use different tactics. If she had the dexterity but just didn't think of it, she would have lost unless she thought of something else. But saying that it was a victory for good tactical thinking and dexterity combined doesn't really undermine the point - dexterity was required for the win (and Nynaeve isn't the best in terms of tactics anyway). Dexterity helped win the day.

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

 

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

I know Lucks said people are overvaluing strength, but the books harps on it so much. Strength is nearly everything., especially when it's a HUGE difference. Rand at his max power level vs Lanfear wouldn't even be a battle. The other male forsaken know Lanfear is a threat, but are positive they can take her if it comes to it. They're what, 2 levels above her? Why do you think they think that? Perhaps they're fooling themselves, or maybe there's something to it. If Ny was one level above Eggy, I could see the point. But at some point it becomes beating up a kid (Like someone said earlier on).

 

There is no guarantee that Rahvin was correct in his assessment - the Chosen do lie to themselves over strength, and unless he had linked with her it would be difficult for a man to accurately gauge a woman's strength. The books and the BWB both state that Lanfear was second strongest, with only Ishamael being stronger (although Aginor seems to be about as strong, given that he's the second strongest man, and vies with Lanfear for second strongest over all).

 

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

Lanfear the second strongest? Really? With men having "several" power rand above women, it's obvious that in sheer power the odds of no other forsaken male ding above the 21 of lanfear are extremely slim.

 

The books don't state that lanfear was the 2nd strongest, but that it was said she was 2nd to Lewis and isshy in power. You see the subtle difference? This sucks from my iPad, ill post more from my rig in a few, because I'm sure you're going to twist words and refute this while claiming the forsaken lied to themselves.

[fionwe1987]

Wow this is still going on?

 

Vardamus:

 

Naeff was also particularly strong in air. So your comment loses a lot of its punch.

How so? Being strong in a flow is not about the quantity of Power, it is about how well you manipulate it. As we see with Verin, complex weaves of Earth are hard for her because she's weak with Earth. Similarly, making cuendillar is not about strength in the OP but how well you can manipulate Earth.

 

As we see with Nynaeve's example, lack of ability with a flow can be compensated for by greater amounts of OP use.

 

Eggy was confident about facing messy in TAR. Not the real world.

 

I've disproved this already...

 

 As to your quotes, you left off the one of her claiming Ny could have handled that situation.

No I didn't! You quoted my entire post, but it seems you didn't even read it. That quote is in there, and I also addressed its implications.

 

About where Egwene was in aCoS (some people brought this up): I've provided the relevant quotes already. Nicola's quote, as well as Brandon's, make it clear that Egwene only achieved her complete potential by ToM. In aCoS, she was just further along than Elayne.

 

Also, about strength in the five Powers. Its clear that Nynaeve isn't weak in any of the five. But we have much greater evidence that Egwene is actually strong in at least four, and probably all five of them:

 

Rand’s face took on a pained expression. “I don’t know.” He sounded embarrassed. “When I want fire, for a lamp or a fireplace, I just make it, but I do not know how. I don’t really need to think to do things with fire.”

That almost stood to reason. Of the Five Powers, Fire and Earth had been strongest in men in the Age of Legends, and Air and Water in women; Spirit had been shared equally. Egwene hardly had to think to use Air or Water, once she had learned to do a thing in the first place.

 

Air and Water, check.

 

Egwene had no real feel for Healing, especially not this complicated tapestry Nynaeve wove without thought, and though she had an affinity for metals and very good strength in both Fire and Earth, Elayne lost her almost immediately.

 

Note that Egwene lumps her strengths in Earth and Fire together. Now, how much is "very good strength"? Cuendillar is the answer:

 

Ability with the weave improved with practice, but of the Five Powers, strength in Earth was the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp - along with two of the Accepted and nearly two dozen novices - had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all.

 

The line of white crept upward steadily. When Leane did this weave, black iron turned to white cuendillar as if the iron were sinking quickly into milk. For Egwene herself, the change was faster than the blink of an eye, black to white in a flash.

 

Add to this, Egwene has the rare ability of feeling out ores, another trait associated with great strength in Earth, and we can see "very good strength" is pretty much top drawer.

 

So Fire and Earth, check.

 

“Those who can channel the One Power,” Moiraine said quietly, “those who are particularly strong in Spirit, can sometimes force their dreams on others.”

 

Spirit, possibly check. Though added with Egwene basically inventing Traveling, and being very dextrous with it, as well as figuring out stilling for herself, on top of being a top notch Dreamwalker at least supports the notion of her being strong in Spirit. She's certainly not weak in it.

 

Now, what does this imply? From the guide:

 

Anyone who can channel usually has a greater degree of strength with at least one or two of the Powers, yet they may lack any particular ability at all with some of the others. For example, someone strong in Wind may be all but unable to weave Fire, or may be weak in Earth but equally strong in Spirit and Air. Some few rare individuals have been found to be very strong in as many as three, or in very rare cases four, of the Powers. But since the Age of Legends no one has had great strength in all five. Even then, such individuals were very rare.

 

Whether Egwene has great strength in four or five of the Powers, she is an incredibly rare kind of channeler. Could Nynaeve be one such? Doubtful, since we have absolutely no evidence for it. She certainly cannot feel out ores, and when she finds out she's incapable of making ter'angreal, she isn't surprised like Egwene is, indicating her strengths in Fire and Earth aren't so great that she thought she should be able to do this.

 

Either way, the case is clear that Egwene has great strength in at least 4, and maybe all 5 of the Powers. That makes all sorts of difference in how good a channeler you are in general.

 

Edit: About Lanfear. If we accept that she's the strongest woman in the world, then she is in fact equal to Rand in every way. RJ said the strongest woman can do what the strongest man can, and to the same degree, even though the strongest man will be several levels of power above her.

 

 

 

[Suttree]

Thanks for this quote in the other thread Fionwe. I hadn't been able to find it for some reason and wanted to put it here for everyones reference as it is relevant to the current debate.

RJ

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

[Durinax]

 

Thanks for this quote in the other thread Fionwe. I hadn't been able to find it for some reason and wanted to put it here for everyones reference as it is relevant to the current debate.

RJ

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

 

yes but this quote is a generalization, so if we took it out of context it effects nothing because both of them are female. So without accurate measures between the two of them then it is not really useful.

[fuzz1717]

@fionwe
To be fair, while we never really have any evidence of Nynaeve being particularly amazing with all five powers, she certainly is better than the average AS with earth and fire (although I don't dispute that Egwene is MUCH better). After all, she was the one who reinvented the 5-power healing weave, incorporating fire and earth into a traditionally water/air/spirit weave. Does this imply that she is good with earth and fire? No, not really, but it certainly suggests that she knows how to use them (at least for healing) and has some moderate ability with them.

 

Also, from WOT Wiki: "Nynaeve is able to channel the Five Powers of Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit with equal proficiency, a feat that is incredibly rare amongst channelers; most only being strong in one or two." Yes, I realize Wot wiki is fan-based and they don't provide the source on the Nynaeve page, but i'm sure someone knows the basis of this bold statement made on wiki. 

 

@durinax

We don't have any particularly accurate way to measure "deftness" other than the evidence provided in the last few pages of this thread, and in my opinion the general consensus seems to be that Egwene is more deft in all areas bar healing (maybe Delving also, and offshoot of healing)

[Suttree]

Also, from WOT Wiki: "Nynaeve is able to channel the Five Powers of Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit with equal proficiency, a feat that is incredibly rare amongst channelers; most only being strong in one or two." Yes, I realize Wot wiki is fan-based and they don't provide the source on the Nynaeve page, but i'm sure someone knows the basis of this bold statement made on wiki. 

 

Yeah it's specifically stuff like that which is the reason the Wiki is not an accepted source in the fandom. Way too many mistakes and assumptions.

[fuzz1717]

 

Also, from WOT Wiki: "Nynaeve is able to channel the Five Powers of Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit with equal proficiency, a feat that is incredibly rare amongst channelers; most only being strong in one or two." Yes, I realize Wot wiki is fan-based and they don't provide the source on the Nynaeve page, but i'm sure someone knows the basis of this bold statement made on wiki. 

 

Yeah it's specifically stuff like that which is the reason the Wiki is not an accepted source in the fandom. Way too many mistakes and assumptions.

 

Yeah I sorta assumed, i just googled "Nynaeve five powers" and hoped that I would get something useful. Whoopsies. I still stand by the first part of my statement:

 

EDIT typos

To be fair, while we never really have any evidence of Nynaeve being particularly amazing with all five powers, she certainly is better than the average AS with earth and fire (although I don't dispute that Egwene is MUCH better). After all, she was the one who reinvented the 5-power healing weave, incorporating fire and earth into a traditionally water/air/spirit weave. Does this imply that she is good with earth and fire? No, not really, but it certainly suggests that she knows how to use them (at least for healing) and has some moderate ability with them.

[fionwe1987]

@fionwe

To be fair, while we never really have any evidence of Nynaeve being particularly amazing with all five powers, she certainly is better than the average AS with earth and fire (although I don't dispute that Egwene is MUCH better). After all, she was the one who reinvented the 5-power healing weave, incorporating fire and earth into a traditionally water/air/spirit weave. Does this imply that she is good with earth and fire? No, not really, but it certainly suggests that she knows how to use them (at least for healing) and has some moderate ability with them.

It doesn't imply that, simply because tons of Aes Sedai have shown proficiency in Five Power Healing, but hardly any of them are among those who can make Cuendillar. For example, Beonin says she can make the Five Power Healing weaves work as well as most, yet she obviously wasn't one of those practicing to make Cuendillar (she says she can't do it). This ties into the fact that just because one of the Powers is used in a weave, it doesn't mean great strength in that Power is needed to make the weave work. Simple example: the cuendillar weave. It uses Air and Fire too, but its strength in Earth that is key. People don't need great strength in Fire and Air as well.

 

 

Also, from WOT Wiki: "Nynaeve is able to channel the Five Powers of Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit with equal proficiency, a feat that is incredibly rare amongst channelers; most only being strong in one or two." Yes, I realize Wot wiki is fan-based and they don't provide the source on the Nynaeve page, but i'm sure someone knows the basis of this bold statement made on wiki. 

I can assure you there is no such evidence. We don't know that she has "equal proficiency" in all Five Powers, nor do we know that she is very strong in any of them. What we do know is that there is no flow in which she struggles. That's different from exhibiting great strength in a flow. 

[fionwe1987]

Here's what WoT wiki says about Egwene:

 

She also has exceptional ability with weaving Earth, as shown by her talent for Delving and detecting metal ores, and good with Fire which is a very rare trait among women, giving her the ability to create cuendillar with immense speed and ease (an ability which she incidentally was the one to rediscover). She also has strength in Spirit as evidenced by her ability to still an Aes Sedai holding the source while she was only Accepted and her Dream-related Talents. By her own admission, she is also very strong in Air and Water, making it likely that she is one of the rare few channelers with great ability in all five of the Powers.

 

Note the difference in the standard of evidence used. For Nynaeve, nothing. For Egwene, quite a bit. 

[Suttree]

Here's what WoT wiki says about Egwene:

 

 

She also has exceptional ability with weaving Earth, as shown by her talent for Delving and detecting metal ores, and good with Fire which is a very rare trait among women, giving her the ability to create cuendillar with immense speed and ease (an ability which she incidentally was the one to rediscover). She also has strength in Spirit as evidenced by her ability to still an Aes Sedai holding the source while she was only Accepted and her Dream-related Talents. By her own admission, she is also very strong in Air and Water, making it likely that she is one of the rare few channelers with great ability in all five of the Powers.

 

 

Note the difference in the standard of evidence used. For Nynaeve, nothing. For Egwene, quite a bit. 

Out of curiosity who was the AS she stilled who was holding the source? I'm blanking for some reason...

[fuzz1717]

I can assure you there is no such evidence. We don't know that she has "equal proficiency" in all Five Powers, nor do we know that she is very strong in any of them. What we do know is that there is no flow in which she struggles. That's different from exhibiting great strength in a flow.

So i don't understand the new quoting system at all so I probably messed the quotes here up, but you get the idea. 

 

Yes, I was forced to retract the WOT Wiki quote, but if we say that Nynaeve does not struggle with any flow, aren't we implying that she is decent with all the powers? I mean, we're saying that Egwene is good with everything (or at least 4/5) and Nynaeve is bad with nothing, is there really that much of a distinction?

 

I do not believe that Nynaeve ever tries to make Cuendillar, but based on the fact that she can perfectly replicate almost any flow she sees, can't we assume that she would be capable of making Cuendillar? Yet we see several examples of Egwene struggling with weaves that she just does not have talent in (Healing, for one). Has there ever been a flow that Nynaeave struggles with (other than because of her inherent clumsiness)?

[fionwe1987]

 

Here's what WoT wiki says about Egwene:

 

 

She also has exceptional ability with weaving Earth, as shown by her talent for Delving and detecting metal ores, and good with Fire which is a very rare trait among women, giving her the ability to create cuendillar with immense speed and ease (an ability which she incidentally was the one to rediscover). She also has strength in Spirit as evidenced by her ability to still an Aes Sedai holding the source while she was only Accepted and her Dream-related Talents. By her own admission, she is also very strong in Air and Water, making it likely that she is one of the rare few channelers with great ability in all five of the Powers.

 

 

Note the difference in the standard of evidence used. For Nynaeve, nothing. For Egwene, quite a bit. 

Out of curiosity who was the AS she stilled who was holding the source? I'm blanking for some reason...

 

Amico. But the wiki is wrong to attribute any great strength to Egwene for that. Amico was using a ter'angreal to enter TAR that we know makes you very weak in the amount of OP you can draw. The impressive thing is not that she stilled Amico, its that she figured out stilling on her own.

[fionwe1987]

 

I can assure you there is no such evidence. We don't know that she has "equal proficiency" in all Five Powers, nor do we know that she is very strong in any of them. What we do know is that there is no flow in which she struggles. That's different from exhibiting great strength in a flow.

So i don't understand the new quoting system at all so I probably messed the quotes here up, but you get the idea. 

 

It takes some time, but you'll get the hang of it.

 

Yes, I was forced to retract the WOT Wiki quote, but if we say that Nynaeve does not struggle with any flow, aren't we implying that she is decent with all the powers? I mean, we're saying that Egwene is good with everything (or at least 4/5) and Nynaeve is bad with nothing, is there really that much of a distinction?

Of course there is! Being not bad at something is hardly the same as being very good at it.

 

I do not believe that Nynaeve ever tries to make Cuendillar, but based on the fact that she can perfectly replicate almost any flow she sees, can't we assume that she would be capable of making Cuendillar? Yet we see several examples of Egwene struggling with weaves that she just does not have talent in (Healing, for one). Has there ever been a flow that Nynaeave struggles with (other than because of her inherent clumsiness)?

 

We know she can't make ter'angreal. She also apparently doesn't show immense facility at weather. Not to Elayne's level at least. However, this could just be her not working at it. We know she doesn't sense ores, and she has never claimed any facility with metals. 

[fuzz1717]

@fionwe

Out of fear that I'm gonna quote you but then put in the "Fuzz1717 said:" box like i did before, i'll just do it this way:

 

How do we distinguish Talents and general weaves though? Is every weave a talent? For example, it is well established that Nynaeve has a strong "Talent" in healing, which Egwene does not, Egwene has a strong "Talent" in both dreaming and detecting ores which Nynaeve does not and Elayne has a Talent of making terangreal. So i suppose my question is can we really say that Nynaeve is not good at earth because she lacks the ore-finding talent? certainly having that talent would be indicative of being strong in earth, but does lacking it imply that an AS is weak in earth?

 

Yet, i suppose there is an inherent contradiction here, because Androl has a "Talent" in making gateways, something that all AS and Ashaman of a certain power level (14? don't quote me, maybe its 11) can do, yet with varying degrees of success. So now are all Talents just weaves, that certain individuals are better at than others? if this is the case, then could one hypothetically watch Elayne make ter'angreal, and copy her weaves? or is there something here i'm missing?

[Knivy]

 

 

 

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

I dont think that the 'juggling weaves' bit fits under the proper form of pressure that we are relating too. That is all pressure from the inside that she is trying to do something to prove it type deal.

 

Being innovative while being under the pressure of fighting for your life is much different and much more important. Which she has not shown any inventiveness at, although arguably during the ToM Mesaana fight she did show some, but I attribute that more to Perrin flat out showing her that the mind is the best weapon than to inventiveness on her part.

 

 

This, I debated including the TAR stuff, but as you said that's about the mind, much more than anything else.

 

(Doesn't detract from the skill she shows)

 

I actually dislike how that played out, it just seemed contrived with how she reacted the entire series to Adam, with her nightmares and such about it, then she gets one put on and in 3.2 seconds she is over it.

 

Sounds like Eggy :)

[fionwe1987]

@fionwe

Out of fear that I'm gonna quote you but then put in the "Fuzz1717 said:" box like i did before, i'll just do it this way:

 

How do we distinguish Talents and general weaves though? Is every weave a talent? For example, it is well established that Nynaeve has a strong "Talent" in healing, which Egwene does not, Egwene has a strong "Talent" in both dreaming and detecting ores which Nynaeve does not and Elayne has a Talent of making terangreal. So i suppose my question is can we really say that Nynaeve is not good at earth because she lacks the ore-finding talent? certainly having that talent would be indicative of being strong in earth, but does lacking it imply that an AS is weak in earth?

 

Yet, i suppose there is an inherent contradiction here, because Androl has a "Talent" in making gateways, something that all AS and Ashaman of a certain power level (14? don't quote me, maybe its 11) can do, yet with varying degrees of success. So now are all Talents just weaves, that certain individuals are better at than others? if this is the case, then could one hypothetically watch Elayne make ter'angreal, and copy her weaves? or is there something here i'm missing?

First of all, we don't know that passively detecting ores is a Talent. As far as I know, the books only imply that it is because Egwene is strong in Earth.

 

Now, obviously not all Talents are weaves. Neither Dreaming nor Foretelling are weaves, for example, but they're called Talents. On the other hand, some Talents are indeed single weaves, like the old Aes Sedai three Power Healing and Gateways.

 

I think when the word Talent is used, it refers to someones ability to do something over and above what they should be able to do given their strength in the Power and strength in the five Powers. So, for example, an Aes Sedai Talented at Healing can not just form the basic Healing weave, but "regulate" it to make it do wondrous things. This comes from Samitsu, a great Aes Sedai Healer:

 

Samitsu licked her lips. The thrill of being filled with saidar always seemed diminished to her, in situations like this. Situations when all of her possible choices were bad. Carefully, she gathered flows of Air, Spirit and Water, weaving them just so, the basic weave of Healing that every sister knew. No one in living memory had the Talent for Healing as strongly as she, and most sisters were limited in what they could Heal, some to little more than bruises. By herself, she could Heal almost as well as a linked circle. Most sisters could not regulate the weave to any degree at all; most did not even try to learn. She had been able to from the start. Oh, she could not Heal one particular thing and leave everything else as it was, the way Darner could; what she did would affect everything from the stab wounds to the stuffed nose Dobraine was also suffering from. Delving had told her everything that ailed him. But she could wash away the worst injuries as if they had never been, or Heal so whoever she Healed appeared to have spent days recovering on her own, or anything in between. Each took no less of her strength, but they did require less from the patient. The smaller the amount of change in the body, the smaller the amount of the body's strength it drained.

 

As Samitsu makes clear, any AS can copy the basic weave. But she can achieve more with it, as much as a circle, in fact, because she has such a strong Talent for the weave.

 

Same with Breowyn and shields, and Androl and Gateways, I suspect.

 

Now, in all these weaves, there are people with lesser amounts of Talent. They may perhaps use more of the Power to achieve the same result as someone with the Talent. Or they can use angreal or circles to match the Higher levels of Talent. But the very best can achieve a lot unaided. Same with Windfinders and the weather, I think.

 

As to not being able to form certain weaves: I'm sure that with practice, Egwene and Nynaeve can copy Elayne's weaves for ter'angreal. But since they lack Talent, they'll probably not achieve much. Same with Egwene and Elayne with Healing. Having that Talent for something not just lets you use the weave well and in different ways, it also seems to help with learning the weave in the first place, or even coming up with it on your own. 

 

Does that clear things up?

[fuzz1717]

Hmm ok so then how can we say that Nynaeve is unskilled with Earth or Fire if perhaps she is merely lacking the Talent in that area? if we are defining a Talent to be able to go above and beyond what should normally be capable, then just because Nynaeve does not demonstrate these Talents (Cuendillar, perhaps finding ores although that is disputable) does not necessarily mean she lacks skill in these areas. I really don't think we have received enough if any evidence to show that Nynaeve is obviously more skilled with one power than another, for she seems to be able to form weaves of many different types and use many of them to great effectiveness (her AS test is a prime example of her using weaves in different ways). So while perhaps Egwene is extraordinarily talented with Earth and Fire, there isn't anything to say that Nynaeve isn't as well, she merely lacks certain Talents that Egwene has. Unless we are saying that Talents are a result of being strong in that Power?

[fionwe1987]

You seem to be very confused, still. Let's brak this down:

 

Hmm ok so then how can we say that Nynaeve is unskilled with Earth or Fire if perhaps she is merely lacking the Talent in that area?

Talent in what area. You still seem confused about what a Talent is. A Talent is focused on some kind of particular ability. You have a Talent with weather, or Healing, or Traveling. Not with Air or Water or Fire!

 

if we are defining a Talent to be able to go above and beyond what should normally be capable,

With a weave or a particular ability. You seem to have missed that part.

 

then just because Nynaeve does not demonstrate these Talents (Cuendillar, perhaps finding ores although that is disputable) does not necessarily mean she lacks skill in these areas.

First of all, making Cuendillar is not a Talent. Its just a weave. Second... she doesn't have any Talent, but she has skill? What does that mean?

 

I really don't think we have received enough if any evidence to show that Nynaeve is obviously more skilled with one power than another, for she seems to be able to form weaves of many different types and use many of them to great effectiveness (her AS test is a prime example of her using weaves in different ways). So while perhaps Egwene is extraordinarily talented with Earth and Fire, there isn't anything to say that Nynaeve isn't as well, she merely lacks certain Talents that Egwene has. Unless we are saying that Talents are a result of being strong in that Power?

Huh? Making cuendiallr is a weave, not a Talent. And it depends on great strength in Earth.

 

Now Nynaeve is obviously not weak in any of the Powers. So she doesn't have any particular difficulty with any weave of any of the five Powers. But we have absolutely no evidence that she has great strength in any. Like all channelers, she's going to have great strength in at least one, and likely more.  

[John Everyman]

I'm a firstime WOT reader, so my opinion is much less educated than most others, but I personally see it like this. 

 

Nynaeve- Far greater strength.

Egwene- Far greater skill, even at their peak (I imagine Nynaeve will have great control in the end, considering she's a healer, and seems to mirror Semirhage to me)

 

Who would win when those forces collide?  Who knows.  I feel like Robert Jordan has been bringing Nynaeve down many pegs in the past few books though (I'm on KOD), what with Sea Folk and Kin surpassing her in healing, her greatest skill (kind of annoyed me that the era's uber healer was being shown up so easily in that skill, though I guess I can just pretend she'll be better than them, the equivalent to Damer Flinn, when her skills fully mature)... maybe because of fan reaction?  I actually really like Nynaeve.

[Kamin_Majere]

Huh? Making cuendiallr is a weave, not a Talent. And it depends on great strength in Earth.

 

Now Nynaeve is obviously not weak in any of the Powers. So she doesn't have any particular difficulty with any weave of any of the five Powers. But we have absolutely no evidence that she has great strength in any. Like all channelers, she's going to have great strength in at least one, and likely more.  

I'm going to have to disagree a little here.  If it were a simple weave than we wouldn't have forsaken talking about how even in the AoL it was a rare thing.

 

In the AoL where both men (who are typically much stronger in earth) and women could make it routinely formed circles to do things there would be cuendillar all over the place.  I mean this stuff is indestructible, you could build a skyscraper on top of a needle made of this.  This stuff can survive balefire unscratched.  I'm pretty sure i would have used it for the basis of just about ALL architecture.  Yet even there it was rare and prized.

 

This is another issue i have with Egwene's "discovery" of how to make it...

3rd Agers.... so rare, so rare

AoLers... so rare, so prized

Egwene.... sh** i make that stuff by the truck load... did you see the 2 mile long 8 foot thick piece of chain i made :insert internet trollface meme:

 

It just doesn't fit 

[fionwe1987]

 

Huh? Making cuendiallr is a weave, not a Talent. And it depends on great strength in Earth.

 

Now Nynaeve is obviously not weak in any of the Powers. So she doesn't have any particular difficulty with any weave of any of the five Powers. But we have absolutely no evidence that she has great strength in any. Like all channelers, she's going to have great strength in at least one, and likely more.  

I'm going to have to disagree a little here.  If it were a simple weave than we wouldn't have forsaken talking about how even in the AoL it was a rare thing.

 

In the AoL where both men (who are typically much stronger in earth) and women could make it routinely formed circles to do things there would be cuendillar all over the place.  I mean this stuff is indestructible, you could build a skyscraper on top of a needle made of this.  This stuff can survive balefire unscratched.  I'm pretty sure i would have used it for the basis of just about ALL architecture.  Yet even there it was rare and prized.

 

This is another issue i have with Egwene's "discovery" of how to make it...

3rd Agers.... so rare, so rare

AoLers... so rare, so prized

Egwene.... sh** i make that stuff by the truck load... did you see the 2 mile long 8 foot thick piece of chain i made :insert internet trollface meme:

 

It just doesn't fit 

 

First of all, notice that after Egwene, the other women do take quite a bit of time to make it. Secondly, its indestructibility could have well led to AoLers putting a cap on how much of it you can make. 

 

There's also a distinct possibility that this easy weave Egwene came up with is different from the AoL one. Just like Nynaeve's Healing, the Windfinder's weather, etc., this could be something that a "primitive" came up with that was better than how it was done in the AoL. And Egwene may have come up with the simple way because she's just that enormously powerful with Earth and has a high affinity for metals.