Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[yoniy0]

Well, they might be here shortly to speak on their own behalf, so I won't do that. I can, however, attempt to pinpoint what elements in that scene make me uncomfortable. It's not Rand's flipping out and exiling her.

• "Insolent boy": Cadsuane has a habit of standing on civility to an excess, but in the past she did that as a strategy, to catch people off-balance and stop dead their arguing. She was never actually offended by their lack of respect, it was merely something she needed to take care of if she were to achieve her goals. This reaction is simply petty, whereas Cadsuane didn't use to be.
  
• "You don't have any idea what that weave can do! You're a child playing with—": well this isn't the first time Cadsuane took that position, but last time she was very collected. She didn't react immediately, rather decided how to best put it to him. For comparison, this is what she said then:

  
  "You will not do that again," Cadsuane said. There was no heat in her voice, just iron. "Do you hear me? Not balefire. Not ever."
  

  Quite beside the fact that her reactions feel completely different to me, she was obviously aware that Rand knew full well what that weave could do, what it was.
  
• "Do you expect an apology from me?": this is the absolute worst. Just one line before she ponders the ludicrousness of blaming her for what happened, supposedly due to the Forsaken's abilities. Did she not know these were her enemies? How then is this not a failure on her part? Better yet, have we ever known Cadsuane to flee from responsibility, to be so immature in her posturing to Rand? The immaturity continues, by the way, with the way she reacts to his proclamation of exile ("But you don't kill women").
  
• "if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart": truly, I can't fathom where this comes from. I felt the strongest need to assure Cadsuane that ta'veren did not, in fact, work like that. Not that there's anything wrong with Rand's wishing her dead or her fearing that he might follow through, but honestly Rand could just as well have attempted to choke her by pinching the air for all that this sentence belongs in the WoT.
  

I think the crux of the matter is, this falls into the all-too-familiar pattern of one character becoming a cartoon in order for another to shine. There's no doubt that Cadsuane needed to be caught off guard and Rand needed to display his sorta-awesome-darkness in this scene; it's just too bad that they couldn't both be the rockin' people we know them to be while still achieving that. Say what you will of RJ's writing, his characters consistently felt like whole human beings even though they failed quite frequently; they didn't succeed at everything they attempted, but they didn't need to alternate between being superstars and village fools to do just that. Except, perhaps, for the Forsaken, who really didn't hold up their own (as opposed to their accomplishments off-stage, that is).

[BFG]

Thanks yoniy0, I think I need to finish my reread - I remember the taveran bit seemed a bit off at the time (although thinking about it now, it's not that far off of how Rand treats it sometimes - going to visit the Seafolk, meeting the rebels in aCoS - not saying it always works for him, but he does occasionally act as though it should), but I didn't really pick up on the other stuff. The reason I like it is because those two chapters (inc. one beforehand) is the first time since tDR where Rand makes the corpses kneel to him genuinely disturbed/worried/frightened me. I guess I don't really remember the other stuff other than liking Min for not turning away and thinking Cads had reason to be scared.

 

Currently my copy of tGS is out on loan, so I can't read the whole chapter so at the moment the only thing I can say is that being around a taveran can make people say things they might only say once in a hundred times.

[yoniy0]

Just to be clear, Rand trusts fate (or his ta'maral'ailen) to work out for the best on more than one occasion. I would go as far as to say it's become modus operandi for him. There's a crucial difference, however, between that and believing that the Pattern bends to your desires. To put it simply, you don't always get what you want, but (if you're ta'veren) you might get what you need.

 

Rand's resignation to the fact that he very rarely gets what he wants is well documented, I think.

[TootThatHorn]

I just finished re reading tGS, and all I got to say is...

 

Here a tempest,

There a tempest,

Everywhere a tempest, tempest....

 

Holy crap I couldn't stop reading that word, it was EVERYWHERE! He even made this for the Seanchan "Tsorov'ande Doon," the Black Souled Tempests, or male channelers; he loved the word so much he made up an old tongue word for it!!! Get a thesaurus!

[yoniy0]

I think we can manage criticism without making Brandon to be a joke, eh, Toot?

[shortkut]

Doesn't the pattern bend to Mat's will? He says what he needs and the he gets it. Major things don't always go the way he wants, but the minor ones do. Maybe rand could bend the pattern to his will because he is much stronger

[Suttree]

Doesn't the pattern bend to Mat's will? He says what he needs and the he gets it. Major things don't always go the way he wants, but the minor ones do. Maybe rand could bend the pattern to his will because he is much stronger

 

Being Ta'veren doesn't work that way. This has been explained many times in both text and author quotes. As for Mat's luck...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

 

In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Robert Jordan

 

That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

[TheAngryDruid]

I'm re-reading ToM right now, and three things really jump out at me. Don't know who wrote what, but I'll just state them. And this is aside from Mat, Bloody Ashes, Aviendha using Rand's first name only, stuff.

 

1. Perrin states that he may have to hunt down Sevannah some day. But he was there when Tylee had her naked over her saddle in KoD. Obvious mistake there. Albeit a small one, plot wise. This was a major climax to a plotline that had gone on for three books (or did it just feel like it?). And Brandon can't remember Tylee riding off into the sunset with Sevanna strapped to her saddle after the meeting with Perrin & Faile outside the gates?

 

2. The whole assassin in the Tower plot line was idiotic. People are dying in the Tower. Egwene thinks it is Mesaana because of her dream. Sisters are assassinated. Over a long period of time. Even novices & accepted are aware of the deaths, and afraid. Who could be doing it? Geez, if only someone close to Egwene had info about any potential suicide troops left behind during the attack? Or maybe if someone HAD ACTUALLY BEEN THE TARGET OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AS THE ASSASSIN SCREAMS OUT MARATH'DAMANE AS THEY TRIED TO KILL HER. The idea the Siuan and Byrne wouldn't have gone to Egwene and told her the Seanchan left suicide troops during the attack when they learned about a possible assassin in the Tower is just asinine.

 

Other than Elayne (and other AS and Kin) forgetting about linking for 3 books, this is one of the dumbest, hardest to believe plot developments in the entire series.

 

3. Black Ajah members using dream ter'angreal suddenly being able to channel at full strength. Darn near ruined what could have been a great climax in the Tower.

 

4. Why didn't Verin simply warn Egwene (directly) about Caemlyn in her big Red book of Blacks and the all their plots and what not? Instead she decides to give people random letters? Verin is meticulous and careful. The attack on Caemlyn was a big deal. A simple notation to Egwene in the book, or a direct mention, or a letter to Elayne, would have sufficed.

======================

 

Look, I think there were better ways to get to the end without making the characters in question (Elayne, Siuan, Byrne, Verin) look incredibly stupid. It's not only a characteristic used in personal interactions between two characters (one looks dumb to make one look smart), but it has also happened, IMHO, too often to twist the story around to get to a predetermined point in the plot (Caemlyn invasion, Winfinder rescue of Elayne, big T'A'R battle).

 

Anyway, don't mean to bash Brandon too much, there was other good stuff in ToM, to be sure, but those issues were really bothersome.

[Suttree]

Or maybe if someone HAD ACTUALLY BEEN THE TARGET OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AS THE ASSASSIN SCREAMS OUT MARATH'DAMANE AS THEY TRIED TO KILL HER.

 

Am I totally spacing here? I don't recall that at all. Could you let me know the chapter so I can check it...

[Sid]

Or maybe if someone HAD ACTUALLY BEEN THE TARGET OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AS THE ASSASSIN SCREAMS OUT MARATH'DAMANE AS THEY TRIED TO KILL HER.

 

Am I totally spacing here? I don't recall that at all. Could you let me know the chapter so I can check it...

Is that the part with the self fulfilling prophecy that Bryne and Siuan discuss at length after he kills the Bloodknife? TGS 41

 

Edit: Bloodknife, not Bloodring. I'm confusing all the new this-that's that are popping up recently.

[Suttree]

Or maybe if someone HAD ACTUALLY BEEN THE TARGET OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AS THE ASSASSIN SCREAMS OUT MARATH'DAMANE AS THEY TRIED TO KILL HER.

 

Am I totally spacing here? I don't recall that at all. Could you let me know the chapter so I can check it...

Is that the part with the self fulfilling prophecy that Bryne and Siuan discuss at length after he kills the Bloodknife? TGS 41

 

Edit: Bloodknife, not Bloodring. I'm confusing all the new this-that's that are popping up recently.

 

I really need to force myself to slog through TGS and the dogs dinner that is ToM one last time. Feel like I'm forgetting things from both.

[ozimandias]

To be fair, that happened During the actual battle with the Seanchan when Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn broke into the tower to rescue Egwene... Raken were still flying overhead etc. It did not seem at all clear that the Seanchan had left behind assassins from that.

[dwn]

The Bloodknife who attacked Gareth Bryne and Siuan also used a poisoned blade. It's a bit odd that either 1) the later assassinations didn't also use poisoned weapons, or 2) that the Yellows didn't pick up on it. It also stretches the credibility of Gawyn's fight with them.

 

-- dwn

[yoniy0]

The Bloodknife who attacked Gareth Bryne and Siuan also used a poisoned blade.

If memory serves, he didn't so much use a poisoned blade as poked Bryne with a needle (or his ring) in his dying spasm.

[shortkut]

Doesn't the pattern bend to Mat's will? He says what he needs and the he gets it. Major things don't always go the way he wants, but the minor ones do. Maybe rand could bend the pattern to his will because he is much stronger

 

Being Ta'veren doesn't work that way. This has been explained many times in both text and author quotes. As for Mat's luck...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

 

In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Robert Jordan

 

That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

the quote does nothing to affirm or deny what I was sayin about his luck...

[Suttree]

Doesn't the pattern bend to Mat's will? He says what he needs and the he gets it. Major things don't always go the way he wants, but the minor ones do. Maybe rand could bend the pattern to his will because he is much stronger

 

Being Ta'veren doesn't work that way. This has been explained many times in both text and author quotes. As for Mat's luck...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

 

In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Robert Jordan

 

That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

the quote does nothing to affirm or deny what I was sayin about his luck...

 

It wasn't meant to. It was a side bar to the point that we know for fact beyond any shred of a doubt from author quotes and text that being ta'veren doesn't work in the way you suggest above.

[dwn]

The Bloodknife who attacked Gareth Bryne and Siuan also used a poisoned blade.

If memory serves, he didn't so much use a poisoned blade as poked Bryne with a needle (or his ring) in his dying spasm.

 

Ah yes, you're quite correct. That's what happens when I don't double check facts before posting.

 

-- dwn

[Ogrelin]

I'm not bothered by the way BS have written the books, sure some things stands out but if you think of it a bit more...

 

It's a wonder any of the characters behave like the used to when the entire pattern is unraveling and even the dead walk in the streets.

[Suttree]

LOL, classic exchange over at TL today. Every now and then Gonz drops a gem...

 

Ahhh! I tell myself again and again to make allowances for BS - but no. This stuff is just depressing. I know it's not RJ so am alert for every little thing and getting thrown out of the story all over the place. And I know this and am trying to stop myself. AND I have what feels like the collective voice of Theoryland in my head reminding me of each issue. At this rate AMOL will drive me crazy ....

.

Gonz

That's the point' date=' isn't it?

It will get worse and worse, until you feel like abandoning all hope. And then, when you're totally at the bottom, you'll remember that RJ wrote the end. Hence, "a memory of light".[/quote']

[Guest Gin]

Let's face it: we all wish RJ could have lived long enough to finish his epic. However, that did not happen and so we are left with three books that will never have his style, his flair, or his attention to detail. After books 12 and 13 came out, I was curious about BS. I read his Mistborn trilogy and found it to be very good. His writing style is not the same as RJ's, though, and he really should have stuck to his own style instead of trying to mimic RJ. I admit that I found it very tedious to read these two books after having read books 1-11. I have found it less irritating whenever I go back and re-read, if I just read RJ's first, and then read BS's a few months later. It's sad, but at least we will know the ending eventually.

[Abschalten]

I just wanted to add my two cents in, and then I'll go back to my lurking corner.

 

Personally, I thought (and still think) that Brandon Sanderson has done a good job with the series. While I agree with some of the common criticisms (the writing style is different, some of the characters feel different in tone, etc.) I still find that, overall, I enjoy what he's written immensely.

 

Lest you think that I'm just some rube that laps up whatever dross is thrown on the ground, I should say that I am comfortable in my ability to read literature and be critical of it. I aced the AP English Literature exam in high school, and carried those college credits with me to the university where I enrolled as an English major. I have studied and analyzed classical works all throughout the history of the English language, learned how to be critical and analytical in my study of it. Now I don't put out these factoids in order to fluff up my ego or buy myself "cred," or to attempt to elevate myself above others, but merely to assure that what I am about to say isn't from somebody who just passively reads a book the way somebody might watch a popcorn flick with the higher cognitive thinking processes turned off. With all that out of the way, I go back to my original point.

 

Brandon Sanderson has done an admirable job with the series. I personally rank The Gathering Storm up in the top handful of books in the series, probably in my top three. I tell my wife that the book is amazing, and is the one I look forward to the most whenever I do a series reread. Towers of Midnight I thought was pretty good, though I felt as though the POVs jumped around a wee bit too much (seriously, three to five POV shifts in a chapter? Across multiple chapters? Yikes.)

 

BS's writing style is, different, though. This common complaint I agree with (though I don't consider it a complaint, merely an observation.) I find Robert Jordan's prose to be evocative, nuanced, and deep, though leaning towards wordiness and annoying repetition. Brandon Sanderson gives up some of the depth for streamlined and well-paced plot. I do think this shift in narrative tone rubs some folks the wrong way, and I would be understanding of those sentiments. BS did say from the start, however, he had no intentions of aping Robert Jordan's style. I thought that approach was admirable. Now, having read Way of Kings, I felt like BS's style was more appropriate to his own material, and perhaps a bit more out of place with the world of the Wheel of Time. Still, he didn't do a *bad* job. (I just wish he'd find a thesaurus and use alternatives to the word "fetch." Good lord, man! I could make a drinking game out of looking for that word!)

 

Some of the characters do feel different. Mat does feel slightly off to me, though it's more in the fact that more of his jokes and humor are painted on the surface of the dialogue rather than inserted in a subtle manner (see also the paragraph above regarding Jordan's nuanced writing.) Mat was less of a problem to me than say, Elaida. Elaida went from being an only slightly-off-her-rocker egomaniacal protagonist in Knife of Dreams to a batshit crazy raving lunatic. Obviously this character bothered me more so than Mat. There are differences in tone with some others, but those are really the only two characters that struck me as being noticeable to any degree.

 

As for the plot itself, well, I really have no way of knowing for certain (as of now) which scenes were written by Jordan, planned by Jordan but left unwritten, or totally invented by Sanderson to fill in an outline gap. That said the plot has been superb. It has been paced well, the scenes engaging and entertaining, and I feel like the major characters are being used well.

 

This is going on a bit longer than I intended, but I'd like to address something before I go. I fully acknowledge that BS has made some mistakes in his writing, editorial and otherwise. There are some folks up in arms about oversights he's made in the writing, and used that as carte blanche to tar his overall production of the final three books. I only wonder, then, if these same individuals were up in arms whenever Jordan himself made these same mistakes. I recall errata that includes errant eye colors, foreknowledge of events that individuals should have no access to, MISSING CHARACTERS in various scenes, or actions that defy plausibility within the setting's internal logic. Jordan had editors when these mistakes were printed, and I can only think that under similar circumstances, when confronted with the sheer enormity of the setting and world itself, that even with the best editors some errors are going to pass through and get printed on a page.

 

I am really not trying to come out as a Brandon Sanderson apologist by any means, even though my words may read that way a bit. I feel genuine perplexity, however, when my independent feelings and thoughts on what has been produced by Sanderson is so at odds with what the vocal individuals here at Dragonmount feel. Criticism is valid, certainly, especially when warranted and supported by facts. I do think that the overwhelmingly negative and acerbic tone by some individuals regarding what has been written is a bit unjustified. I wish more than anybody else that Jordan had been able to finish his story, and I was distraught when I learned of his death. But in general, I feel that Sanderson has done an imperfect and uneven but still a fine job of giving us what we've been waiting for these past two decades.

[Suttree]

I just wanted to add my two cents in, and then I'll go back to my lurking corner.

 

Personally, I thought (and still think) that Brandon Sanderson has done a good job with the series. While I agree with some of the common criticisms (the writing style is different, some of the characters feel different in tone, etc.) I still find that, overall, I enjoy what he's written immensely.

 

Lest you think that I'm just some rube that laps up whatever dross is thrown on the ground, I should say that I am comfortable in my ability to read literature and be critical of it. I aced the AP English Literature exam in high school, and carried those college credits with me to the university where I enrolled as an English major. I have studied and analyzed classical works all throughout the history of the English language, learned how to be critical and analytical in my study of it. Now I don't put out these factoids in order to fluff up my ego or buy myself "cred," or to attempt to elevate myself above others, but merely to assure that what I am about to say isn't from somebody who just passively reads a book the way somebody might watch a popcorn flick with the higher cognitive thinking processes turned off. With all that out of the way, I go back to my original point.

 

Brandon Sanderson has done an admirable job with the series. I personally rank The Gathering Storm up in the top handful of books in the series, probably in my top three. I tell my wife that the book is amazing, and is the one I look forward to the most whenever I do a series reread. Towers of Midnight I thought was pretty good, though I felt as though the POVs jumped around a wee bit too much (seriously, three to five POV shifts in a chapter? Across multiple chapters? Yikes.)

 

BS's writing style is, different, though. This common complaint I agree with (though I don't consider it a complaint, merely an observation.) I find Robert Jordan's prose to be evocative, nuanced, and deep, though leaning towards wordiness and annoying repetition. Brandon Sanderson gives up some of the depth for streamlined and well-paced plot. I do think this shift in narrative tone rubs some folks the wrong way, and I would be understanding of those sentiments. BS did say from the start, however, he had no intentions of aping Robert Jordan's style. I thought that approach was admirable. Now, having read Way of Kings, I felt like BS's style was more appropriate to his own material, and perhaps a bit more out of place with the world of the Wheel of Time. Still, he didn't do a *bad* job. (I just wish he'd find a thesaurus and use alternatives to the word "fetch." Good lord, man! I could make a drinking game out of looking for that word!)

 

Some of the characters do feel different. Mat does feel slightly off to me, though it's more in the fact that more of his jokes and humor are painted on the surface of the dialogue rather than inserted in a subtle manner (see also the paragraph above regarding Jordan's nuanced writing.) Mat was less of a problem to me than say, Elaida. Elaida went from being an only slightly-off-her-rocker egomaniacal protagonist in Knife of Dreams to a batshit crazy raving lunatic. Obviously this character bothered me more so than Mat. There are differences in tone with some others, but those are really the only two characters that struck me as being noticeable to any degree.

 

As for the plot itself, well, I really have no way of knowing for certain (as of now) which scenes were written by Jordan, planned by Jordan but left unwritten, or totally invented by Sanderson to fill in an outline gap. That said the plot has been superb. It has been paced well, the scenes engaging and entertaining, and I feel like the major characters are being used well.

 

This is going on a bit longer than I intended, but I'd like to address something before I go. I fully acknowledge that BS has made some mistakes in his writing, editorial and otherwise. There are some folks up in arms about oversights he's made in the writing, and used that as carte blanche to tar his overall production of the final three books. I only wonder, then, if these same individuals were up in arms whenever Jordan himself made these same mistakes. I recall errata that includes errant eye colors, foreknowledge of events that individuals should have no access to, MISSING CHARACTERS in various scenes, or actions that defy plausibility within the setting's internal logic. Jordan had editors when these mistakes were printed, and I can only think that under similar circumstances, when confronted with the sheer enormity of the setting and world itself, that even with the best editors some errors are going to pass through and get printed on a page.

 

I am really not trying to come out as a Brandon Sanderson apologist by any means, even though my words may read that way a bit. I feel genuine perplexity, however, when my independent feelings and thoughts on what has been produced by Sanderson is so at odds with what the vocal individuals here at Dragonmount feel. Criticism is valid, certainly, especially when warranted and supported by facts. I do think that the overwhelmingly negative and acerbic tone by some individuals regarding what has been written is a bit unjustified. I wish more than anybody else that Jordan had been able to finish his story, and I was distraught when I learned of his death. But in general, I feel that Sanderson has done an imperfect and uneven but still a fine job of giving us what we've been waiting for these past two decades.

 

Let me be the first to say great post Abs. Although we are pretty far apart on how we break down the material it is very refreshing to have an informed poster articulate why they feel Brandon has done a good job. Usually we just get a knee jerk reactions of "hating" or " well lets see you do better"! Hope to see more of your posts post AMoL as the discussion evolves.

[Entreri]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

[Abschalten]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Oh, I've nerd-raged quite a few times myself here on Ye Olde Internet. I'm certainly not above it myself. ;)

[Suttree]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.