How has your perception changed?

[Sagacious Lu]

Many of us have spent the last 20 years or so anxiously waiting for the next book to come out, and doing rereads. Although it's only been a short time for the characters I was a teenager when I first picked up EotW and now... well do the math for yourself. My question is how have your views on the books changed over the years? What looks different now that you've seen more of life and (hopefully) learned from it?

The biggest thing that stood out for me during my last reread (in between tGS and ToM) was my opinion of Moiraine. When I first read the opening books I couldn't stand her. I was, if anything, more PO'd than the Emmond's Fielders at the way she treated them. During my reread she became one of my favorite characters. I'm amazed at how patient she was with the childish bumpkins that only stopped running their mouths long enough to make real trouble.

[Yosarian]

I do have to say that the point in Eye Of The World when she threatened to kill all three of them rather then let the shadow take them was really foolish on her part. Of course they didn't tell her about the dreams of Ishy and all that; she had JUST TOLD THEM that she was going to murder them if she suspected they were turning to the shadow! (I can understand why she would THINK that, and even why she would be prepared to do it, but threatening them like that just seems foolish.)

 

I do like her a lot, but I think that she made some mistakes in the beginning there that realy set the scene for miscommunication and confusion for the entire rest of the series, between her being all mysterious and not giving them key pieces of information, and them being afraid to tell her anything for fear she would kill them. There's really nobody in the seires that dosn't make serious mistakes at one point or another, which is understandable.

[Sagacious Lu]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Moiraine was perfect... although she was still WAY ahead of the rest of the WT in terms of honesty and treating non-AS with respect. Sure, she could have done some things better but let's not forget that she's a crusader, not a nanny... which is what the Emmond's Field folks needed when we first met them. One way or the other it's interesting to me that at the time I identified with Rand, Mat and Perrin, but now that I have real responsibilites and some experience working with children I sympathize with Moiraine. I have a completely different view of the dynamic between the characters at that point than I did as a child. Now my attitude is more "Scram kid you're bugging me, and there's no point in arguing with you because you don't realize how much you don't know so just hush your mouth". Of course, that attitude isn't going to get you anywhere with kids either in this world or Randland. Just the same on my reread I kind of wanted to buy Mo a drink and say "I feel ya sister".

[driedraspberry]

I do have to say that the point in Eye Of The World when she threatened to kill all three of them rather then let the shadow take them was really foolish on her part. Of course they didn't tell her about the dreams of Ishy and all that; she had JUST TOLD THEM that she was going to murder them if she suspected they were turning to the shadow! (I can understand why she would THINK that, and even why she would be prepared to do it, but threatening them like that just seems foolish.)

 

I do like her a lot, but I think that she made some mistakes in the beginning there that realy set the scene for miscommunication and confusion for the entire rest of the series, between her being all mysterious and not giving them key pieces of information, and them being afraid to tell her anything for fear she would kill them. There's really nobody in the seires that dosn't make serious mistakes at one point or another, which is understandable.

 

I don't remember Rand ever actually fearing Moiraine would murder him. When did he or any of them express this fear specifically? It seemed going over to the dark one was hardly a more preferable fate to death in the boys' eyes. Heck in Caemlyn Perrin even expressed a wish to die and Moiraine corrected him that in death DO would have easier access to him. The boys' resistance had a lot more to do with fear of AS (remember just a few weeks before they were of the belief that all AS were darkfriends) and being controlled, a White Tower puppet. In fact, reading Rand pov, a lot of the language Ish used in the dreams was akin to possession (you belong to me, etc) and a wish for independence shaped most of their struggle with DO, their fate, and of course Moiraine. She played her cards as best as anyone could. Can you imagine any other AS in the same situation? Shudder.

[Yosarian]

I don't remember Rand ever actually fearing Moiraine would murder him. When did he or any of them express this fear specifically?

 

From Eye of the World, page 221, right after they all had the dream with Ishy killing the rat, and then woke up to find dead rats all over the inn they were staying in.

 

"No" Mat said slowly. "It's the chances, that's all. If we tell her, and he was lying, then maybe nothing happens. Maybe. But maybe just him being in our dreams is enough for...I don't know." He stopped to swallow. "If we don't tell her, maybe we'll have some more dreams. Rats or no rats, dreams are better then...Remember the ferry? I say we keep quiet."

 

"All right." Rand remembered the ferry-and Moiraine's threat, too-but somehow it seemed a long time ago. "All right".

 

If she had put a little more effort into winning their trust instead of into trying to scare the heck out of them, then things probably would have gone better.

[driedraspberry]

I don't remember Rand ever actually fearing Moiraine would murder him. When did he or any of them express this fear specifically?

 

From Eye of the World, page 221, right after they all had the dream with Ishy killing the rat, and then woke up to find dead rats all over the inn they were staying in.

 

"No" Mat said slowly. "It's the chances, that's all. If we tell her, and he was lying, then maybe nothing happens. Maybe. But maybe just him being in our dreams is enough for...I don't know." He stopped to swallow. "If we don't tell her, maybe we'll have some more dreams. Rats or no rats, dreams are better then...Remember the ferry? I say we keep quiet."

 

"All right." Rand remembered the ferry-and Moiraine's threat, too-but somehow it seemed a long time ago. "All right".

 

If she had put a little more effort into winning their trust instead of into trying to scare the heck out of them, then things probably would have gone better.

 

I see. I understand that it led to their secrecy about the dreams. Still, I disagree about her messing up. The boys were intending to run away from her, she had to be firm. Plus RJ needed that line for foreshadowing possibly. ;) In any case considering the situation Moiraine tried her best to attain as much trust as an AS could get from them. If she had revealed more they would have for sure run away, to everyone's peril.

[Maleshub]

I have been reading and rereading the books for a year now; and my current reread has changed my perception as to when the series started to "drag." To me, there are clear sections in The Path of Daggers that were "dragging." I didn't notice such passages in the books prior to TPoD. And I am expecting the drag to get worse with the bulk of Elayne's civil war and Perrin's rescue operation (I just started Winter's Heart).

 

In the past, I was under the impression that the "drag" started in Crossroads of Twilight.

[Sagacious Lu]

I have been reading and rereading the books for a year now; and my current reread has changed my perception as to when the series started to "drag." To me, there are clear sections in The Path of Daggers that were "dragging." I didn't notice such passages in the books prior to TPoD. And I am expecting the drag to get worse with the bulk of Elayne's civil war and Perrin's rescue operation (I just started Winter's Heart).

 

In the past, I was under the impression that the "drag" started in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

I think this is pretty fair, although the big dust-up at the end of WH is still one of my favorite scenes. My first time through these books my excitement carried me through them effortlessly. The second time through it was more apparent that the story bogs down in parts, starting in PoD. IMHO KoD got it back on track though.

[Yosarian]

Interesting. My impression was the opposite; I thought that the PoD started to drag, that it got worse in Winter's Heart, but then it started to pick up again in Crossroads of Twilight.

[Sagacious Lu]

One thread (that I haven't given as much attention a it deserves) that takes on a completely different light the second time through is Verin's story. When I went back after her reveal a number of scenes that didn't stand out the first time gave me chills, and a lot of things made sense in a way that they didn't before. In particular (can't remember which book) the scene in which she gets the poison from the WOs.

 

Hey, just so I don't put my foot in my mouth, are spoilers that happen before aMoL okay, or are we still protecting the events in ToM?

[Yosarian]

Yeah, I love reading everything about Verin now. Everything she does has layers, it's clear he planned this right from the beginning. That scene where she was doing compulsion on the other Aes Sedi to get them to swear to Rand (at least, I think that's what she was doing) is just...wow. The fact that she could have lied at any point in the series also makes some little details make a lot more sense.

 

Knowing what we know now, it's also freaky that right before Moraine died, Moraine specifically warned Rand in her letter to "be as susicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin". I mean, holy crap. Rand even wondered why Moraine specifically warned him about Alviarin instead of Elaida. Did Moraine know that they were both black ajah? How? Does Moraine just know EVERYTHING? If she knew, why didn't she do anything or warn anyone else, not even Egwene? Or was that just a suspicion on her part? It all raises SO many questions.

[Wool-headed lummox]

How did Moraine find out that Lord Whatisname of Tear was Belal in disguise? She left the inn without an explanation, came back pale-faced and said "Belal is in the Stone of Tear". How did she know that? Did she consult the "word on the street"? Her eyes and ears? Highly knowledgeable tavern matrons with clean aprons? Or did she spy on Belal and recognize him from her past memories as Lews Therin?

 

That was a blatant plothole, and it was never explained. I guess Moraine really does know everything.

[Suttree]

How did Moraine find out that Lord Whatisname of Tear was Belal in disguise? She left the inn without an explanation, came back pale-faced and said "Belal is in the Stone of Tear". How did she know that? Did she consult the "word on the street"? Her eyes and ears? Highly knowledgeable tavern matrons with clean aprons? Or did she spy on Belal and recognize him from her past memories as Lews Therin?

 

That was a blatant plothole, and it was never explained. I guess Moraine really does know everything.

One answer...

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Krishnan Murali (14 November 2011)

 

How Moiraine is able to able to learn which Forsaken is in power in Tear and Illian in The Dragon Reborn?

Brandon Sanderson (14 November 2011)

 

 

I believe, but am not taking the time to look it up, she used means more mundane than you're probably expecting.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Meaning good use of information networks. That said, I'll give a tentative MAFO and try to remember to look it up specifically.

KRISHNAN

 

Oh , what do mundane method do you think she used? She found which Forsaken was in power quickly and spot on in The Dragon Reborn.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

She is very smart, and she knew exactly what to look for. She knew they were coming, and what they would likely do.

TEREZ

 

One good theory is that she just eavesdropped.

KRISHNAN (19 NOVEMBER)

 

In #TorChat, you said that Moiraine probably eavesdropped in The Dragon Reborn to learn the Forsaken's identity; is this a theory in Theoryland?

KRISHNAN

 

I don't mean to ask whether it is a full theory (would be silly), I wanted to know whether it has been discussed in Theoryland.

TEREZ

 

I have seen it discussed at Theoryland and Dragonmount, and @zemaille might have also written something on it.

LINDA TAGLIERI

 

Moiraine did eavesdrop. Egwene saw her listening to Rand and Asmodean in The Fires of Heaven 'What can Be Learned in Dreams'.

TEREZ

 

Agreed, it seems the most logical and straightforward explanation. We saw it in The Eye of the World last POV too.

 

Add in to that all the wonky things going on with dreams and the like and there was more than enough reason to start pokjing around....

[Maleshub]

I have been reading and rereading the books for a year now; and my current reread has changed my perception as to when the series started to "drag." To me, there are clear sections in The Path of Daggers that were "dragging." I didn't notice such passages in the books prior to TPoD. And I am expecting the drag to get worse with the bulk of Elayne's civil war and Perrin's rescue operation (I just started Winter's Heart).

 

In the past, I was under the impression that the "drag" started in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

I think this is pretty fair, although the big dust-up at the end of WH is still one of my favorite scenes. My first time through these books my excitement carried me through them effortlessly. The second time through it was more apparent that the story bogs down in parts, starting in PoD. IMHO KoD got it back on track though.

 

I am currently reading WH; and the first 10 chapters are Faile/Elayne Succession. I don't remember forcing myself to read through any parts like this. Nearly one third of the book is:

- Faile captured, Perrin freaked out and is almost witless!

- Elayne succession micro-micro details.

[Yosarian]

That is an interesting question.

 

I mean, it's not hard to see that if a new noble no one had ever heard of before suddenly takes over and now everyone's having nightmares, that that guy is probably one of the Forsaken. That much should be easy. But knowing which one of the Forsaken...that's got to be harder.

 

She does know the weave that lets you easdrop on other people's conversations, and Belal wouldn't be able to detect a woman using the one power, so it is possible she listened in on Belal giving some darkfriend orders.

[driedraspberry]

I have been reading and rereading the books for a year now; and my current reread has changed my perception as to when the series started to "drag." To me, there are clear sections in The Path of Daggers that were "dragging." I didn't notice such passages in the books prior to TPoD. And I am expecting the drag to get worse with the bulk of Elayne's civil war and Perrin's rescue operation (I just started Winter's Heart).

 

In the past, I was under the impression that the "drag" started in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

I think this is pretty fair, although the big dust-up at the end of WH is still one of my favorite scenes. My first time through these books my excitement carried me through them effortlessly. The second time through it was more apparent that the story bogs down in parts, starting in PoD. IMHO KoD got it back on track though.

 

I am currently reading WH; and the first 10 chapters are Faile/Elayne Succession. I don't remember forcing myself to read through any parts like this. Nearly one third of the book is:

- Faile captured, Perrin freaked out and is almost witless!

- Elayne succession micro-micro details.

 

Ugh WH started out twice as boring as tPoD, but I guess badass endings tricks the memory because I remember mostly ejoying them, and that was just this summer when i read them. CoT didn't really have that so I guess the drag is more noticeable.

[Hagazussa]

My perception have changed quite a bit. I was 16 when I first started reading the Wheel of Time books and I then identified with the younger characters the most, Egwene was probably my favorite character, she was close to me in age and I identified with her. Now I am 30 years old and I see the younger characters as often silly and identify more with the older characters. Also when I started reading the books they where a bit of a chore, English is not my first language and I have dyslexia so getting through a 700 pages + novel, and several of them where rather daunting, now I mostly read big books in English and reading the WoT books are just fun.

 

I would not say my perception of Moiraine have changed though, I never had a negative opinion of her and always saw her as someone who did what she did because she had no other choice and that she honestly wanted the best for the Two Rivers youngsters, I do not really get why anyone would have a problem with that character.

[Maleshub]

I am currently reading WH; and the first 10 chapters are Faile/Elayne Succession. I don't remember forcing myself to read through any parts like this. Nearly one third of the book is:

- Faile captured, Perrin freaked out and is almost witless!

- Elayne succession micro-micro details.

 

Ugh WH started out twice as boring as tPoD, but I guess badass endings tricks the memory because I remember mostly ejoying them, and that was just this summer when i read them. CoT didn't really have that so I guess the drag is more noticeable.

 

WH goes 180 in Chapter 11. The first 10 chapters are some of the most boring and slow but with Chapter 11 the action and reading enjoyment button is "on."

[Sagacious Lu]

A ffriend of mine is reading the books for the first time. He's now breaking into tSR and so can put things in perspective but he HATED Mat for most of the first three books. Looking back on it the first time through I thought he might be a traitor, or possibly an enthralled victim similar to Golem. At this point Mat is such a rock star that's it's hard to remember that there was a time I didn't like him.

 

English is not my first language and I have dyslexia so getting through a 700 pages + novel, and several of them where rather daunting,

 

Wow, I've got to tip my hat to you. Reading huge epics in your second language despite dyslexia is quite a feat.

[Maleshub]

A ffriend of mine is reading the books for the first time. He's now breaking into tSR and so can put things in perspective but he HATED Mat for most of the first three books. Looking back on it the first time through I thought he might be a traitor, or possibly an enthralled victim similar to Golem. At this point Mat is such a rock star that's it's hard to remember that there was a time I didn't like him.

 

English is not my first language and I have dyslexia so getting through a 700 pages + novel, and several of them where rather daunting,

 

Wow, I've got to tip my hat to you. Reading huge epics in your second language despite dyslexia is quite a feat.

 

Mat took off after he was healed from the Shadar Logoth dagger in "The Dragon Reborn." He had a few bright moments during the party's expedition in the Blight in The Eye of the World. But otherwise, he wasn't very popular pre-healing.

[TNine]

On my first read-through i was shocked that Nynaeve was able to keep up with Moggy. After reading the rest of the series and watching most of the Forsaken squabble uselessly and get taken down with relative ease, i think of them as much more flawed and incompetent characters, and i'm frankly surprised that the weakest Forsaken was able to keep up with the strongest women channeler that we know of (except perhaps Alivia).

[pamela]

Mat. Quite obviously, at the beginning of my first read I couldn't stand him and on my re-read I already liked him. And Luca's menagerie plotline - before the re-read I remembered only that it was unbearable and got ready for the worst, but then, to my surprise, I found it not that bad. Unbelievable

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

For some reason I've always identified with Mat more than anyone. Maybe my own personality as far as gambling and drinking are concerned made me that way. But I still identify with perrins quiet reserve and choosing a girl COMPLETELY wrong for him. Plus Mats mindset to ALWAYS fulfill his promises. Moir is the only character I've changed my mind about over the years mainly cause I've realized that she basically is a knight. She knows what needs to be done and does it NO MATTER WHAT. That counts alot

[Hagazussa]

On my first read-through i was shocked that Nynaeve was able to keep up with Moggy. After reading the rest of the series and watching most of the Forsaken squabble uselessly and get taken down with relative ease, i think of them as much more flawed and incompetent characters, and i'm frankly surprised that the weakest Forsaken was able to keep up with the strongest women channeler that we know of (except perhaps Alivia).

 

Yeah I had this reaction to, that one of the main characters was able to keep up with one of the big bads so early in the series was shocking, but I agree many of the Forsaken are incompetent, also Moggy's main thing is not to throw spells around like a maniac, that is not what she is best at, she is a manipulator and one that plot and plans in the shadows, so I doubt that Nynaeve would be able to best her that early on if they where on Moggy's own arena which is manipulating events at a distance and let others fight your battles for her. :P

 

Wow, I've got to tip my hat to you. Reading huge epics in your second language despite dyslexia is quite a feat.

 

Thank you for your kind words Sagacious Lu,

[Apoc81]

I hated Nynaeve my first time through. My dislike of Egwene and Elayne was nothing in regards to my outright hatred of the Healer from Hell. By the time she married Lan and helped Rand cleanse the Taint, I actually enjoyed her character and the way she evolved, far more than I enjoy either Elayne or Egwene.

 

I always liked Perrin, and still do, but find him frustrating when dealing with his hooknosed bitch of a wife. She is just so expendable. I would love it if she died in the last battle, and Perrin could move on to rule Two Rivers in peace, with a far less hateful wife. Though I know that won't happen.

 

I hated Padan Fain from his introduction in Emonds Field, right on past his involvement with the White Cloaks. He is still not a likeable character, but later I really started to find everything surrounding him to be quite interesting. I hope we find out just what he is, beyond the motivations that drive him, especially now that he's been steered away from being a gollum type of character.

 

Verin went from being a character that was just there for the sake of being there, to becoming one of the most interesting Aes Sedai in the series. Going back through the books now, after her big reveal, there was so many hints, so much foreshadowing I never noticed. It was a lot of fun to re-read the series with a totally different view of her.

 

Egwene. I liked her in Eye of the World. I thought she was an interesting, strong, and fun character to read about. As time went on, I found her personality regressed, and her leadership skills to be erratic at best. Her work inside the White Tower against Elaida was her high point, and I thought she would only improve from there. But her denouncing the rebels after being made Amyrlin of the Tower, and her treatment of Rand when he went to her in the white tower, showed me how truly selfish she is. She refuses to see the merits of any idea that isn't hers, and that is what makes her an unlikeable leader, imo. Oh, and also her attempted rape of Nynaeve in TAR. I'm sorry, but that was beyond what is decent. Dream or not, assault on a woman is disgusting and terrible. Especially when she was guilty of the very thing she was punishing Nynaeve for.