The Big Speculation

[Nelal Hurcran]

It seems like everybody is speculating on how Rand will survive the last battle. I can't remember where I heard the original theory, I think it was on the 4th Age, but here it is, with some minor additions/changes. If this was yours, thanks. And if this is posted somewhere else, sorry.

 

I don't have all the detials worked out yet, but this is the general idea.

 

I belive that somehow or another, Rand, Mordeth and Alivia will end up alone some where. Somehow, Rand's counsious swiches with Mordeth's. In other words we have two bodys and three minds scatterd thus:

 

Rand's Body: Lews Therin and Mordeth

Mordeth's Body: Rand

 

A fight will insue, in which Alivia will be fighting against Rand (in Mordeth's body) untill he convinces he to do oherwise. She will kill Rand's body, and with it Mordeth and Lews Therin (both for the second time) and Rand will create a gateway to escape. At the same time that Alivia kills "Rand", Elyane, Min and Avienda will come through another gateway and see her. Min will through some knives, as will Avienda, but Elayne will balfire Alivia. "Unfortunatly" Elayn doesn't have Rands strength or skill with this particuler weave, and it doesn't erase Alivia back enough to bring Hybrid-Rand back.

Some time later, at Rand funeral service, with just the three women left, he will show up, convice them that he is who he is, meet his kids, cry and laugh.

 

It may seem shaky, but it bring sense to: "To live you must die",

and Min's vewings about: Alivia "helping [Rand] die"; "three women around your funneral brier"; Aveindas quaduplites.

 

So...let the baching, cutting and ripping of my theory begin.

[rd2000]

Seems too simple, too easy. I can't see RJ writing an ending like that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the whole body switch thing. I feel pretty sure that Min's viewings would not see Moridin dying in Rand's body as Rand dying. But thats just my opinion. I'm a fan of the "Rand dies, time goes backwards for a bit, Rand is not dead" theory. After all, "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed". Best way I can think for that to happen is for Rand to take a trip into the Prison, duke it out with Shai'tan on his own turf, then make it back into the Pattern at a different "point" in space-time. There are problems with that, too, though. I'm actually hoping Jordan will surprise the crap out of me.

[dragonlover]

i was just thinking could it not be as simple as rand getting shot by an arrow or something like that and dieing, then someone balefires the person who killed rand, therefore rand comes back to life again

[O.o Jack K5 o.O]

its "twice dawns the day" not twice dawns the sheader of blood. maybe TD happens twice. maybe those giant statue sa'angreal are used to balefire the pattern back to the point in time that the battle begins. *shrug* lets read and find out.

[Mat is the Boss]

I believe that when the DO breaks free, a Shadow will fall over Randland, making it look like night. After Rand has defeated the DO, the Light will return. This explain twice dawns the day...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I believe that when the DO breaks free, a Shadow will fall over Randland, making it look like night. After Rand has defeated the DO, the Light will return. This explain twice dawns the day...

 

You know ... if that turns out to be it, I'll be really pissed. Thats like prophecy getting tricked by a big cloud. Come on ....

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I believe that when the DO breaks free' date=' a Shadow will fall over Randland, making it look like night. After Rand has defeated the DO, the Light will return. This explain twice dawns the day...[/quote']

 

You know ... if that turns out to be it, I'll be really pissed. Thats like prophecy getting tricked by a big cloud. Come on ....

 

Yeah, and just a bit too similar to the shadow of darkness coming out of Mordor for my liking.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Rand's Body: Lews Therin and Mordeth

Mordeth's Body: Rand

 

The problem with this is that Rand and LTT are the same soul so I don't see how they could inhabit two different bodies. They are ones soul so as goes Rand so goes LTT.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I believe that when the DO breaks free' date=' a Shadow will fall over Randland, making it look like night. After Rand has defeated the DO, the Light will return. This explain twice dawns the day...[/quote']

 

You know ... if that turns out to be it, I'll be really pissed. Thats like prophecy getting tricked by a big cloud. Come on ....

 

Well I wouldn't exactly say the prophecy is beeing tricked. As a rule prophecies tend be metaphorical so it doesn't necessarly have to mean that the sun will literally rise twice that day. Still I do hope that RJ comes up with something a little more creative than the DO casting a shadow over this land.

[Thor]

I believe that when the DO breaks free' date=' a Shadow will fall over Randland, making it look like night. After Rand has defeated the DO, the Light will return. This explain twice dawns the day...[/quote']

 

I like this. :lol:

[cloglord]

I figured that it meant that there would be a solar eclipse on the day of TG.

[Thorum]

I don't believe that shadow: it's not dawn after a shadow passes, it's clear light immediattely.

 

Eclipse: same problem

 

Two dawns is only achievable by two mornings, which is only achievable by balefire. A strong one , or just after dawn, but that takes long enough to need a really strong balefire. So it must be with Choedan Kal.

 

I just don't see what this body swap-thing has to do with it? And, LTT and Rand are the same sole, so they can't become separate soles.

[Gentled Ben]

Okay, I'm assuming that by saying "Mordeth," the author meant "Moridin," but as I'm not certain, I want to clarify that. Beyond that, I'm surprised that it's so casually assumed that Alivia can and will kill Rand's body, esp. since in this scenario, it's inhabited by not one, but both of the strongest channelers from the AOL. Are they wrestling Saidin away from each other at the time so that they can't defend themselves? Is she going to unleash all (what, maybe)10 weaves that she learned on a leash? Does everyone actually assume that she can beat Rand hands down, much less Lews Therin or Moridin? Is it so obvious that it doesn't merit speculation? Why? Because she's stronger than Cyndane, and with an angreal, stronger than Lanfear used to be without one? So what? Rand is still stronger, and Rand, Lews Therin, and Moridin all know more (and in the case of LTT and Moridin, likely better) weaves. The viewing is that she'll HELP him die; not kill him in a duel.

 

Also, who taught Elayne the balefire weave, and when did she learn it?

[DemandredFO]

Gentled Ben: As far as I know the only wonder girl that has ever used balefire is Nyneave. She didn't mean to do it and I don't think Egwene or Elayne saw how she did it. Egwene said something like she didn't see what Nyneave did. I think the only other Aes Sedai we see use balefire is Moraine but I don't know if any other Aes sedai know it. Rand does and I don't know who else among the Asha'man.

 

Jack: The female sa'angreal melted, so that is gone and as for the male sa'angreal, that much balefire would probably destroy the pattern

[Gentled Ben]

I was addressing Nelal Hurcran, the author of this thread who, at the end of his theory, posited that after his death, Elayne would balefire Alivia in an attempt to bring Rand back. I was disputing that by questioning when Elayne might have learned the banned weave. However, Cadsuane knows it, because she recognizes it when Rand uses it. On a related tangent, I think that balefire is one of the secret Green ajah weaves, like that insect-luring weave that Moiraine uses on Lan in NS is a "Blue" weave.

 

Moiraine learns balefire while staying with Adeleas (a Brown) and her sister, Vandene (a Green), Cadsuane at least recognizes the (banned) weave, and among Liandrin's bungling Blacks, the only ones we see use the balefire ter'angreal are the two Greens, Jeane and Asne. It's all circumstantial, I know, but they ARE the battle ajah, and that's one bad battling weave. :D It's the kind they might pass on, even though it's banned, just in case it's needed at the Last Battle. They want to stand ready, after all.

 

Yes, if I'm right, that would explain how Elayne learned it (assuming that she knows it and shows up to balefire Alivia), but it would have happened off-screen, and it would have been taught to her by sisters who barely accepted her as one of their own. I don't see them teaching her the weave, even if it's one that they know, before she swears on the rod. I just don't think it's likely that Elayne knows the weave.

[cannon]

However, Cadsuane knows it, because she recognizes it when Rand uses it.

 

Cadsuane recognizes balefire, not the weave for it. She can't even see Rand's weaves because its the male half of the power. I don't think we've seen any proof that Cadsuane knows balefire. Of course, I wouldn't be at all suprised to learn that she does.

 

On a related tangent, I think that balefire is one of the secret Green ajah weaves, like that insect-luring weave that Moiraine uses on Lan in NS is a "Blue" weave.

 

I find this theory fun, and I like it. But it's not the only possibility. It explains how Moiraine learned the weave, but it's just as possible that the sisters knew it for some other reason. They were described as having large amounts of arcane knowledge, so that's just as plausible as a Green secret weave.

 

I do like the secret weave theory though.

 

among Liandrin's bungling Blacks, the only ones we see use the balefire ter'angreal are the two Greens, Jeane and Asne.

 

Is there anything to suggest that you need to know the weave in order to use the balefire rod? I really doubt it because then what would be the point of that ter'angreal?

 

it would have been taught to her by sisters who barely accepted her as one of their own. I don't see them teaching her the weave, even if it's one that they know, before she swears on the rod. I just don't think it's likely that Elayne knows the weave.

 

This is exactly why I think Elayne doesn't know it either. *If* you assume your "secret weave" theory is correct, there's no way the Ajah would have taught her anything. She hasn't gone through the test yet, hasn't even practiced the weaves. I mean, she's certainly proven herself, but tradition dies hard. There's no way the SAS accepts the wonder girls as full sisters.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I don't believe that shadow: it's not dawn after a shadow passes' date=' it's clear light immediattely.

 

Eclipse: same problem

 

Two dawns is only achievable by two mornings, which is only achievable by balefire. A strong one , or just after dawn, but that takes long enough to need a really strong balefire. So it must be with Choedan Kal.

 

I just don't see what this body swap-thing has to do with it? And, LTT and Rand are the same sole, so they can't become separate soles.[/quote']

 

Now now, Thorum if there is anything at all you should have learned form WOT and from the Fantasy Genre in general it is that prophecy should not be taken litterally. Prophecy is by its very nature metaphorical and always contains clever plays on words. So when the prophecy says "twice dawns" this does not mean that the sun must litterally rise twice in one day for it to be fulfilled. Besides the ideal of balefiring the entire pattern borders too closely on time travel which when used as a plot device always seems like a cop out.

[DisOrder]

None of those theories at all sound even remotely probable.

[Thorum]

Thorum wrote:

I don't believe that shadow: it's not dawn after a shadow passes, it's clear light immediattely.

 

Eclipse: same problem

 

Two dawns is only achievable by two mornings, which is only achievable by balefire. A strong one , or just after dawn, but that takes long enough to need a really strong balefire. So it must be with Choedan Kal.

 

I just don't see what this body swap-thing has to do with it? And, LTT and Rand are the same sole, so they can't become separate soles.

 

 

Now now, Thorum if there is anything at all you should have learned form WOT and from the Fantasy Genre in general it is that prophecy should not be taken litterally. Prophecy is by its very nature metaphorical and always contains clever plays on words. So when the prophecy says "twice dawns" this does not mean that the sun must litterally rise twice in one day for it to be fulfilled. Besides the ideal of balefiring the entire pattern borders too closely on time travel which when used as a plot device always seems like a cop out.

 

The problem is that a huge balefire is the only thing even remotely possible that I can think of to let it be "twice dawns the day".

[Iceman]

When I read the "twice the day dawns" line, I immediately thought of an eclipse.

I can think of several stories where a prophesy about "a day within a night, a night within a day" or "sunrise during the day" was used.

 

That's my expectation. In the examples we've seen of balefire being used, time doesn't exactly go backwards. The thing being balefired ceases to exist before it was hit... but everything/everyone else is in the same place-time they would be when the balefire was used.

- Mat was clawed by the dogs and died... then Rand balefired 'em and Matt was suddenly back... thinking that he'd been dead... not Rand goes back in time and kills the dogs before they scratch Mat harder.

- Nynaeve was rolling down the river when the boat gets hit with balefire... Suddenly she's underwater as if the boat had been sunk a minute ago.

 

No actual "going back in time" for the people NOT being balefired... just events unfold as if the balefired thing disappeared before it was hit.

 

I don't see Balefire making the day dawn twice.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Now now, Thorum if there is anything at all you should have learned form WOT and from the Fantasy Genre in general it is that prophecy should not be taken litterally.

 

You know ... a surprising number of the prophecies in this series have been quite literally fulfilled.

[Leopoled Boothe]

You know ... a surprising number of the prophecies in this series have been quite literally fulfilled.

 

Please give some examples.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I agree with Iceman, if one balefired the entire pattern, the pattern would would not simply proceed once more from the point to which threads had been burned back. It would basicaly destroy the world thus creating a state of nothingness. This nothingness would exist as thought the last day of existance had never happend (not that that would make much diffence at that point).

[Gentled Ben]

Cadsuane recognizes balefire, not the weave for it. She can't even see Rand's weaves because its the male half of the power. I don't think we've seen any proof that Cadsuane knows balefire.

 

The proof is in the fact that she can name it. It's a banned weave, no one at all is supposed to know it, yet she sees it and calls it for what it is. If she had never seen balefire, she would have said, "What the Hell was that?" instead of slapping him and saying, "Not balefire, Boy; never that." She doesn't have to see the weave itself, it's the fact that she recognizes the fire that tells me she knows the weave.

 

As far as the ter'angreal goes, of course one wouldn't have to know the weave in order to use it, and sure; that's what it's for, but if baleifre IS a secret Green weave, wouldn't Greens be possessive of it, whether it was woven or unleahsed by a device? That was my thinking; that as soon as they saw what the rod did, they seized it, probably by claiming that such an offensive-oriented weave should be in the hands of those trained in the battle ajah, but really, thinking "Take your hands off that, Woman; that's unleashing a Green weave."

 

All the evidence for my pointless, mini-theory is circumstantial, and yeah, Adeleas had a ton of books and Vandene even admits that her sister was always teasing her by saying that she should have chosen Brown instead Green, but the circumstantial evidence all just seems to pile up. Too bad that even if I'm right, it makes no difference; it doesn't have any weight to it...like most of my arguments. :P