Elayne's Warders as of the end of Chapter 1 (fully spoiled)

[TristanWebb]

Also, Elayne has been shown in recent books to be incredibly self centred. It is part of the hate against her, along with all the wasted screen time. I have a vague feeling that I have read either in the books or in a RJ quote that AS wouldn't bond a man at deaths door because the bond if they die is devastating. Having Elayne bond him to gain him a few extra minutes is completely out of character, IMO, especially with her unique sense of the bond with Birgitte mirroring her emotions so much and constantly feeling the pain of Rand.

 

On a meta level, having her bond him at this late point is a stupid move on the authors part and even though I am currently having issues with Brandon's handling of the series (me finding out that he wanted a Perrin centred book has been rubbing me the wrong way for the last few weeks) I don't think he would do that. Major points like this being put just before TG doesn't seem particularly RJ, we would see at least two books worth of her wrangling with him and flirting and overcoming the idea that with him bonded he isn't a sex object like Rand is. I know meta level never seems to come into play with people's theories around here, but there is only so much space in the book and I can't see it being wasted on this, though some of the arcs in ToM I would of said the same about.

[FanoLan]

See, now, I disagree that it could be considered a last measure when they are surrounded by talented healers, even though time was short.

 

That seems to be the crux of the issue. How much did Elayne know about the imminent arrival of a more talented Healer. Egwene provides the PoV for the scene, therefore nothing specifies Elayne's thinking. Her physical circumstance was different from Eg's so the reader knows they have differing viewpoints on the surrounding scene. Eg notes Elayne in conversation with Guybon and then joins the two. In all likelihood, Elayne was fully engaged in learning what she could from Guybon(bon) and less aware of the surrounding realities. Once Elayne drops to the ground to Delve Talmanes, she remains there through Eg's departure and final instruction, "Do what you can for him."

 

Granted the conclusion has been deduced, not read from explicit text. To me, the motivation is sufficient and the potential negatives would not deter Elayne from saving a life. The published books frequently allude to Elayne bonding another Warder and although Guybon has been the focus of that attention until now, Talmanes makes an even better candidate (if only for the lulz).

[yoniy0]

For what it's worth, FanoLan, I agree that this

Also, Elayne has been shown in recent books to be incredibly self centred. It is part of the hate against her, along with all the wasted screen time.

is grossly inaccurate. Elayne is in fact thoroughly selfless, but in a snobbish kind of way. She does have a very high self-esteem, but nothing she does is self-serving.

 

Even so, one doesn't go around bonding people lightly. If Talmanes only has seconds left, it's (extremely) unlikely bonding him would change anything; if he has minutes, then the camp has a great many AS more talented than her with Healing.

[FanoLan]

Also, Elayne has been shown in recent books to be incredibly self centred. It is part of the hate against her, along with all the wasted screen time. I have a vague feeling that I have read either in the books or in a RJ quote that AS wouldn't bond a man at deaths door because the bond if they die is devastating. Having Elayne bond him to gain him a few extra minutes is completely out of character, IMO, especially with her unique sense of the bond with Birgitte mirroring her emotions so much and constantly feeling the pain of Rand.

 

On a meta level, having her bond him at this late point is a stupid move on the authors part and even though I am currently having issues with Brandon's handling of the series (me finding out that he wanted a Perrin centred book has been rubbing me the wrong way for the last few weeks) I don't think he would do that. Major points like this being put just before TG doesn't seem particularly RJ, we would see at least two books worth of her wrangling with him and flirting and overcoming the idea that with him bonded he isn't a sex object like Rand is. I know meta level never seems to come into play with people's theories around here, but there is only so much space in the book and I can't see it being wasted on this, though some of the arcs in ToM I would of said the same about.

 

You and I have completely different opinions on the series.

 

I do not engage in Elayne-hate for any reason and usually chuckle at the "reasons" people put forth to justify their own perspective, though sometimes I respond from less than a zen place. So, if your reason for disagreeing with the theory is baggage you're carrying to the conversation (Elayne is too selfish), well, there's little I can do about that.

 

Not sure I understand your point about Birgitte-mirroring and Rand's pain. We've seen Elayne contemplate bonding another Warder and never think of those issues as a deterrent.

 

So, because Brandon contemplated a Perrin-centered books, you are somehow rubbed the wrong way and therefore you do not approve of Brandon's work. Um, OK.

 

So are you dissing RJ with your hyperbole about two books? Or is that supposedly offered as an argument against the theory?

 

Well, thank goodness we have you to educate us on meta considerations. Maybe you need to define that term for us common folk that seem to never consider such.

 

With TG on, I think we'll see numerous implementations of Gawyn's suggestion that AS bond Warders as frequently as possible. Not that I think Gawyn's suggestion influenced this scene particularly, but you might want to loosen your expectation of how bondings are going to be handled for TG or you'll probably get frustrated. Two books of foreplay are out the window and there will be new AS-Warder bonds formed.

[FanoLan]

For what it's worth, FanoLan, I agree that this

Also, Elayne has been shown in recent books to be incredibly self centred. It is part of the hate against her, along with all the wasted screen time.

is grossly inaccurate. Elayne is in fact thoroughly selfless, but in a snobbish kind of way. She does have a very high self-esteem, but nothing she does is self-serving.

 

Even so, one doesn't go around bonding people lightly. If Talmanes only has seconds left, it's (extremely) unlikely bonding him would change anything; if he has minutes, then the camp has a great many AS more talented than her with Healing.

 

Thanks yoniy0.

 

I completely agree that given a respite from the action and the time to make a cooly reasoned choice with a full and accurate accounting of the situation, Elayne would not have bonded Talmanes. We do not see the actual result of her Delving, so we do not know her calculus on time-to-death. Given Eg's superficial view, it was probably down to it so the temporal considerations would have prompted Elayne to act. To jump right in and do something to help. To not stop and consider all of the ramifications down the road.

 

Most of all, I really want to see the scene where Talmanes explains to Mat. A Warder?!?! Elayne's Warder?!?!

[TristanWebb]

Meta considerations: considerations that are formed by evidence outside of the fictional work. For instance, knowledge of the outrigger books meaning Mat won't die, or in a TV series an actors contract being renewed meaning their character will be around for the next season.

 

I was talking about specifically Elayne bonding a new warder, not any random no name AS doing so. A meta consideration that the major plot points going forward would of generally been in the last third of the last book if RJ had lived to write it means that no completely new ideas should be introduced. No Isle of Madmen, no alien invasion. Elayne bonding a new warder seems to me something RJ would of needed a substantial amount of space dedicated to which he shouldn't of wasted in the last book.

 

This doesn't mean that BS wouldn't do so, but such a major thing for a major character should have been in the notes and leaving it this late to try to fill in the relationship seems especially padding.

 

Edit: I feel that I should clarify. Elayne has a unique view of the bond due to Birgitte. The ability for her to be effected by it to the extent that she is colours her perception, as does her other bond to the man that she loves. She has been shown to be able to allow people to die, mourn for them and carry on. To think that she would bond someone just to give him a few extra minutes of agony is to demean her character.

[Pinzarn]

I don't think she bonded him; however, I need to get back to the states to look up some of the pertinent information from when she bonded Birgette.

 

Here is my thought process, and most of it revolves around the pregnancy. When Rand's women bonded him, there was an instant wave of emotion. Most of what I remember is how they reacted to the woundsin his side. I need to see if there was a similar reaction to Birgette being on death's door. To bond someoe that is that close to death and wounded as they are, to me, would be a huge shock to the Elayne and the pregnancy. Given how gingerly she has been treated and acted, it would seem out of character for her to instantly do this even with Min's viewing.

 

Plus, there were no other indications from Elayne post-bonding that would hint she did it. After Nynaeve finished, I would have expected Elayne to say something like "I know he will be fine, I can feel it" or something like that.

 

Don't forget that Elayne could still be in trouble with the Tower for bonding Birgette without asking. The ends justify the means in one case, but it loses it's power when it becomes habit forming.

[FanoLan]

I don't think she bonded him; however, I need to get back to the states to look up some of the pertinent information from when she bonded Birgette.

 

Here is my thought process, and most of it revolves around the pregnancy. When Rand's women bonded him, there was an instant wave of emotion. Most of what I remember is how they reacted to the woundsin his side. I need to see if there was a similar reaction to Birgette being on death's door. To bond someoe that is that close to death and wounded as they are, to me, would be a huge shock to the Elayne and the pregnancy. Given how gingerly she has been treated and acted, it would seem out of character for her to instantly do this even with Min's viewing.

 

Plus, there were no other indications from Elayne post-bonding that would hint she did it. After Nynaeve finished, I would have expected Elayne to say something like "I know he will be fine, I can feel it" or something like that.

 

Don't forget that Elayne could still be in trouble with the Tower for bonding Birgette without asking. The ends justify the means in one case, but it loses it's power when it becomes habit forming.

 

Great points Pinzarn. Not sure about the full impact of bonding someone already wounded and whether that would potentially harm the babies. The Eg/Gawyn scene also provides some insight on bonding to extend the life of a fatally injured person.

 

After Nyn pushes her aside in order to reach Talmanes, we see Elayne has moved on to engage Aludra in conversation. Eg approaches her, but no mention is made of Talmanes by either woman. Elayne's failure to inquire could also be read as she already knows Talmanes is going to live (bonded him) and therefore doesn't need to ask as opposed to viewing it that she doesn't say he'll make it therefore doesn't know (did not bond).

 

Elayne seems to have moved past potential trouble over Birgitte but you are correct, there could be some admonishment down the road. I don't think that would dissuade Elayne of it's own accord however. Something about Lini and a saying along the lines of "do what you must and pay the price later" comes to mind.

 

"Habit forming" would exaggerate the situation, don't you agree? I have not suggested this is going to be Elayne's m.o. from here on out, just a last ditch effort to save the life of the man her second in command of the army just told her had saved the dragons and effected the rescue of scores of refugees.

[FanoLan]

Meta considerations: considerations that are formed by evidence outside of the fictional work. For instance, knowledge of the outrigger books meaning Mat won't die, or in a TV series an actors contract being renewed meaning their character will be around for the next season.

 

That's not the definiton of meta considerations as I understand it. The external factors you reference are only that, external realities. Nothing related to the text; no meta, overarching theme of the series that drives the narrative.

 

I was talking about specifically Elayne bonding a new warder, not any random no name AS doing so. A meta consideration that the major plot points going forward would of generally been in the last third of the last book if RJ had lived to write it means that no completely new ideas should be introduced. No Isle of Madmen, no alien invasion. Elayne bonding a new warder seems to me something RJ would of needed a substantial amount of space dedicated to which he shouldn't of wasted in the last book.

 

I disagree with your conflation of Elayne bonding another Warder and an alien invasion (or Isle of Madmen). Don't see how Elayne's bonding another Warder could even possibly be considered a "completely new idea." That idea has been batted around for multiple books now. Why would a substantial amount of space need to be dedicated to this peripheral event. It's not like it would be a game changer.

 

This doesn't mean that BS wouldn't do so, but such a major thing for a major character should have been in the notes and leaving it this late to try to fill in the relationship seems especially padding.

 

I get it. You don't approve of BrS' work on finishing this series and anything that doesn't conform to your preconceived notions of how the rest of the story plays out will be attributed to his poor work.

 

Edit: I feel that I should clarify. Elayne has a unique view of the bond due to Birgitte. The ability for her to be effected by it to the extent that she is colours her perception, as does her other bond to the man that she loves. She has been shown to be able to allow people to die, mourn for them and carry on. To think that she would bond someone just to give him a few extra minutes of agony is to demean her character.

 

Are you intentionally misrepresenting my point [Removed]. If you can, in any way, provide evidence in my posts that would support your contention that I think "she would bond someone just to give him a few extra minutes of agony" I'll accept another alternative. Otherwise it's one or the other.

[Suttree]

For what it's worth, FanoLan, I agree that this

Also, Elayne has been shown in recent books to be incredibly self centred. It is part of the hate against her, along with all the wasted screen time.

is grossly inaccurate. Elayne is in fact thoroughly selfless, but in a snobbish kind of way. She does have a very high self-esteem, but nothing she does is self-serving.

 

Concur, she has always shown to be incredibly selfless for all that she is sheltered and a snob. I would like to see quotes from Cow in how he reached that conclusion. It runs totally counter to her actions throughout the series.

[shortkut]

I hope she didn't bond him but I would not be surprised, not only to find out she did but that it was RJ's idea. This would further bind the band and the dragons to andor and elayne... and with ensuring talmanes will live, she would just justify it as a win-win situation

[joeron bigelow]

Has anyone noticed that all of sudden Elayne can hold her weaves fine and dandy - whereas compared to when she was first preggos - she couldnt channel a candle flame? Or something like that. Of course I may have missed a point in the book where it was explained that she got better. I did skip a lot of the chapters about her taking a bath and drinking goat milk.

 

I vote no bonding - it will bring up another point, her babies are a part of her right? what would stop "them" from being bonded to her new warder?

 

Ugh - i dont want to be Rand or Birg when Elayne goes into labor. Imagine that - Rand is in the middle of his "fight" with the DO, and then "arrgh, i can feel my xxxxxx ripping open..."

[Aulduron]

Sometimes she can channel pregnant, sometimes she can't.

[jmniles]

Has anyone noticed that all of sudden Elayne can hold her weaves fine and dandy - whereas compared to when she was first preggos - she couldnt channel a candle flame? Or something like that. Of course I may have missed a point in the book where it was explained that she got better. I did skip a lot of the chapters about her taking a bath and drinking goat milk.

 

I vote no bonding - it will bring up another point, her babies are a part of her right? what would stop "them" from being bonded to her new warder?

 

Ugh - i dont want to be Rand or Birg when Elayne goes into labor. Imagine that - Rand is in the middle of his "fight" with the DO, and then "arrgh, i can feel my xxxxxx ripping open..."

 

I believe it does mention that she is doing better with channeling as the pregnancy progresses.

[FanoLan]

Sometimes she can channel pregnant, sometimes she can't.

 

This. If she can embrace the Power, she has no problems. It's the if of it for now, until labor, when no channeling. Probably a good thing for the prospective father if he's there for the birth.

 

I think if someone bonded Elayne, her babies would be bonded (or dead), but not due to Elayne bonding someone else.

[BFG]

Elayne was worried (or possibly just using excuses) that swearing the oaths would affect her babies, I don't think she'd take the risk of bonding someone else, as the same reasoning would have that person bonded to the babies as well.

[FanoLan]

Elayne was worried (or possibly just using excuses) that swearing the oaths would affect her babies, I don't think she'd take the risk of bonding someone else, as the same reasoning would have that person bonded to the babies as well.

 

Definitely seemed as if she were worried about harming the babies. But I kind of view that issue as similar in kind to the bonding comparison. The swearing would cause the OP to affect Elayne, and therefore potentially her babies. If the bonding were going to affect the babies, as separate souls, Elayne would have to do something similar to the trifecta bonding of Rand - I conjecture at least.

[Lisa Campbell]

Haven't read the prologue yet, I downloaded it last night but I can't read it on my computer, have to wait till my iPhone's fixed on Friday so I don't know much yet about the bonding situation but I think that if Talmanes is her newest Warder, he might stay with the band until after the Last Battle and then leave it. You can't do your duty as Warder and be a general in an army at the same time. So where are the lasting political ties there? If anything, Elayne would want him commanding her troops in my opinion.

 

Also, the Band and the Dragons are already tied to Andor at least until Tarmon Gaidon, Elayne saw to that with the contract with Mat and cleverly using his Cairheinin soldiers when she claimed the crown of Cairhein. Seems a moot point to me but like I said, I am basing my opinion on the 4 pages I've read here because I know most of you are accurate in the evidence you present.

[Suttree]

Haven't read the prologue yet, I downloaded it last night but I can't read it on my computer, have to wait till my iPhone's fixed on Friday so I don't know much yet about the bonding situation but I think that if Talmanes is her newest Warder, he might stay with the band until after the Last Battle and then leave it.

 

It's just one theory on how he might survive. It hasn't been done yet.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah got that thanks Sutts. Probably should have highlighted the "if Talmanes is her..."