Is Demandred Timolan?

[yoniy0]

Bastor, the text itself has already been quoted here, then put into question (myself, I don't doubt that its an appearance). The EncyclopediaWoT has no more to base that summery on than that, though, so I don't think this advances us any.

[spleen1015]

Terez already mentioned this. I don't believe it is Timolan because of the "My rule is secure" quote on page 1. Aiel don't rule. A Clan Chief doesn't rule. Kings rule.

[FarShainMael]

Demandred might not see it that way! Just a passing thought..

[Terez]

Well, in this case, we're talking about the most solid of the Forsaken alliances, and it makes a certain amount of sense. More than it would with other Forsaken anyway (which is not saying much). But there are other things about the argument that don't make so much sense.

I am not entirely sure what you think Demandred has been up to, because as far as I know we don’t actually know anything at all about what Demandred has been up to.

 

We do know some of what he's been up to. He said himself that he had plans for Andor, and we can say with near-certainty that he was involved in the Black Tower in the beginning, and that Moridin usurped his authority there when he appeared (mid-ACOS to TPOD). This was suggested by several small clues in LOC and ACOS and strengthened by Kisman's breakdown of the chain of command in WH. He suggested that Demandred and Taim were well-acquainted, and couldn't understand why Demandred wanted him to keep his orders secret from Taim. That relationship was further confirmed in the AMOL prologue. From his involvement in the Black Tower we can deduce several other things about what he has been up to, because there is evidence of his military mind in the early workings of the Black Tower, including the idea Taim proposed that eventually led to the Legion of the Dragon. We can deduce also from KOD 3 that Demandred has been using the Ways to move Shadowspawn recently.

 

As to Mik, my fellow-Dutchman, I thank you for your salutations and will return them: Gegroet!

 

Funny, one of our Dutchies at Theoryland brought up the question of whether Rand could be posing as a clan chief the other day. I'm pretty sure he doesn't read this forum. Of course, he's the forum jokester (read: fairly harmless troll), but it's a funny coincidence.

[dhammett11]

It just occured to me that we found the friggin Higgs boson before Demandred. Something about this really bothers me...

[yoniy0]

The two are interlinked. The existence of the Higgs boson clearly implies that Demandred is masquerading as Mandarb.

[FarShainMael]

I didn't even know Demandred was looking for the Higgs Boson..

[Ananta]

I didn't even know Demandred was looking for the Higgs Boson..

Pretty sure it was mentioned in one of the chapters of CoT. No one just ever read it.

[Terez]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

[ta'maral'ailen]

I am not entirely sure what you think Demandred has been up to, because as far as I know we don’t actually know anything at all about what Demandred has been up to.

 

We do know some of what he's been up to. He said himself that he had plans for Andor, and we can say with near-certainty that he was involved in the Black Tower in the beginning, and that Moridin usurped his authority there when he appeared (mid-ACOS to TPOD). This was suggested by several small clues in LOC and ACOS and strengthened by Kisman's breakdown of the chain of command in WH. He suggested that Demandred and Taim were well-acquainted, and couldn't understand why Demandred wanted him to keep his orders secret from Taim. That relationship was further confirmed in the AMOL prologue. From his involvement in the Black Tower we can deduce several other things about what he has been up to, because there is evidence of his military mind in the early workings of the Black Tower, including the idea Taim proposed that eventually led to the Legion of the Dragon. We can deduce also from KOD 3 that Demandred has been using the Ways to move Shadowspawn recently.

 

I haven't been able to find the part in which Demandred says he has plans for Andor. Do you happen to know where it is? As for Demandred being involved in the Black Tower; I do think I agree with you. However I don't see how Demandred's plans with the Black Tower / Legion of the Dragon (and possibly Andor) would mean that he can't be Timolan. Sure, if he is Roedran his base of operations is near some of his other plans, but being Roedran himself wouldn't add anything to the Black Tower or the Legion of the Dragon. Certainly not now there is a massive army of Trollocs in Caemlyn (which according to Rand in Chapter 1 of AMoL is typical Demandred behavior).

 

I didn't even know Demandred was looking for the Higgs Boson..

Pretty sure it was mentioned in one of the chapters of CoT. No one just ever read it.

 

I don't think we have seen a CERN-researcher onscreen, so it is certainly a possibility. :)

[Bromo Sapien]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

 

Does this mean CERN's next project is going to be building hybrid beastmen super-soldiers? Because if so, YES!

[FarShainMael]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

 

Does this mean CERN's next project is going to be building hybrid beastmen super-soldiers? Because if so, YES!

 

The Large Trolloc Collider...

[mbuehner]

If Roedran stretches the 'why' conundrum, Timolan breaks it into pieces. At least Murandy has its location going for it, making for a useful forward supply dump for the shadow. What could Timolan possibly offer aside from a very minor ability to occasionally keep an eye on Rand? The Aiel are even less likely to jump through a waygate and line up next to trollocs than murandians are. The only reason Roedran gets the time of day from me is having a secure location to get up to Chosen antics away from the prying eyes of the dragon reborn and his followers could be useful. But that comes down strictly to location, location, location (and I'm not sure i even buy that). Timolan offers none of those modest advantages while retaining all of the Roedran theories weaknesses.

[mbuehner]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

 

Does this mean CERN's next project is going to be building hybrid beastmen super-soldiers? Because if so, YES!

 

The Large Trolloc Collider...

 

It is well established that Taim cannot be observed as Demandred and Moridin at the same time.

[BFG]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

 

Does this mean CERN's next project is going to be building hybrid beastmen super-soldiers? Because if so, YES!

 

The Large Trolloc Collider...

 

It is well established that Taim cannot be observed as Demandred and Moridin at the same time.

 

But once the box opens, the cat will be dead.

[FarShainMael]

Aginor found the Higgs Boson Ages ago.

 

Does this mean CERN's next project is going to be building hybrid beastmen super-soldiers? Because if so, YES!

 

The Large Trolloc Collider...

 

It is well established that Taim cannot be observed as Demandred and Moridin at the same time.

 

But once the box opens, the cat will be dead.

 

Or alive, of course.

[yoniy0]

Or alive, of course.

You clearly haven't met Demandred.

[FarShainMael]

Or alive, of course.

You clearly haven't met Demandred.

 

But I AM Demandred!!! And sometimes they're more fun alive..

[mike hunt's here]

Sorry to butt in here - but i have a question: is it that demandreds alias/alter ego was not "mentioned" until after KoD, or "in Person" until after KoD?

 

In LoC - Roedran is mentioned by Myrelle about something, but doenst ever appear in person. Does that keep him eligible?

[Terez]

His alter ego has not been seen on screen at all. The only possible book in which his alter ego might have been seen was TGS, but there are good arguments that his alter ego was not seen even then, and Brandon refused to say one way or the other. But only for TGS. For all of the other books, either RJ or Brandon has explicitly confirmed that Demandred's alter ego has not been seen on screen.

 

But RJ said in 2001 (just after the release of WH) that we could figure out who it is from clues in the books, just like we could figure out who Mesaana was. Brandon has made several comments to the same effect. So we can determine from those comments that his alter ego was mentioned, by WH at the latest, and when asked by a reader, Brandon couldn't remember whether there were enough clues to figure it out from LOC alone. The reader was probably thinking about Taimandred, but either way I don't think you can argue that Brandon's comment means that it can be figured out from LOC alone; he just doesn't remember or isn't sure enough to say one way or the other. Most of the clues for Roedred begin in TPOD, which satisfies RJ's comment in 2001 that it can be figured out from clues in the books.

[yoniy0]

Sorry to butt in here - but i have a question: is it that demandreds alias/alter ego was not "mentioned" until after KoD, or "in Person" until after KoD?

It's only said that he didn't appear on screen, not that we haven't heard of him. In fact, the fact that we could deduce who he was strongly implies that we did hear about him.

 

EDIT: Sorry Terez, didn't see your reply there.

[Terez]

And really, Brandon's comment that people online have figured it out makes it clear it's not someone like Timolan who has never even been mentioned as a suspect before.

[Cybertrolloc]

Sorry, we lack resources you have. Can you provide Peter and Brandon's dns caches, I'm not sure what they consider online or not?

[yoniy0]

That's uncalled for. Brandon is a very infrequent visitor of fan sites. If he's seen it online, then in all likelihood every one of us who's been keeping track has heard of the theory he referred to before.

[ta'maral'ailen]

And really, Brandon's comment that people online have figured it out makes it clear it's not someone like Timolan who has never even been mentioned as a suspect before.

And Brandon thought just as well that a lot of people thought Demandred was Paitar, whilst in fact they didn't. So that isn't very convincing.

 

If Roedran stretches the 'why' conundrum, Timolan breaks it into pieces.

If you would please read what I've written before, you would know that Demandred being Timolan would have been useful not only to keep an eye on Rand, but also to 'aid' in the kidnapping of Rand, to cause dissend among Rand's followers by sending Aiel into Mat's camp and to constantly disagree as clan chief. That's why in the past sense.

 

The why in the present sense would be that Timolan is capable as clan chief to abandon the Last Battle (see proof in how just a view people of the Shaido were capable of turning an entire clan against Rand). Which apart from the Aiel 'warriors' being useful would most probably cause a return of the Bleakness and just common loss of morality all over. Next to that; it's very useful for the general of the Dark One to know exactly what is going with the enemy's (read Rand's) armies. It is furthermore useful to 'operate' as a general behind enemy lines. If Demandred is Timolan he would be capable of causing massive destruction among Rand's armies at the Fields of Merrilor. But as it is in the present I can not know this for sure. But you can't know for sure anything about Roedran's activities in the present either.

 

The only reason Roedran gets the time of day from me is having a secure location to get up to Chosen antics away from the prying eyes of the dragon reborn and his followers could be useful.

No, he has only the rest of the world as an alternative to keep away from the Dragon Reborn and carefully plan his plots. And how could Roedran's followers be any more useful than an entire Aiel clan? Or do you think that Roedran's entire army is willing to fight alongside Trollocs? You have answered this question yourself: they won't be willing. (I in fact never meant that the Aiel would join the Dark One, rather that they would just abandon the fight / be misled by Timolan and accidently attack an army from Rand / cause chaos like the Shaido did for 5 books.)

 

Timolan offers none of those modest advantages while retaining all of the Roedran theories weaknesses.

How can you even come up with such a quote? The Timolan theory weaknesses are entirely different from the Roedran theory weaknesses. As for the supposed advantages; Timolan is indeed not capable of not operating in front of Rand, but it has been made clear (by Terez) that he doesn't need to. As Sammael said: Demandred likes using proxies. So the one advantage you thought Roedran has over Timolan is in fact in Demandred's case pointless.

 

So please I am not asking you to accept the theory, as I stated at the very beginning: the Roedran theory is of course plausible, but try to be a little less simplistic.