Ha! I called it on Egwene! Chapter 1 SPOILER!

[KakitaOCU]

Good exampld, rand, I think we all know someone like that, (or at least hope to).

 

Mark, forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm going by my memory of the initial situation back in 2010, but wasn't the not ghost writing a Team Jordan idea as a whole? I remember seeing those comments (and I thought from Harriet and others as well, not just BS) before TGS even came out saying that they wouldn't even try to mimic RJ and that this wasn't anything close to a Ghost Writing job, but just a desire to see the story completed and done as a final send off to the Fans and to RJ's legacy.

[Neophyte]

Frankly, when Brandon Sanderson came to his own personal conclusion that he could not even attempt to duplicate RJ's style of writing, that's when he should have turned the project down and given it to someone else.

 

Now that I disagree with - no author could truly duplicate Jordan. This is not to say that Jordan is "the best author evah, no one can match him!" Just that no two authors can ever really duplicate one another. So the ability to duplicate Jordan could never have been the deciding factor, or the series would have had to have ended after Knife of Dreams.

 

Also, I'm not sure that there was a line of quality authors around the block waiting to take this up. We should keep that in mind - there may be authors out there who could have done a better job than Sanderson, but I'm not actually sure that there are authors out there who could have done a better job and were willing to take the job.

 

I wish that Sanderson had done a better job, but given the choice between this and nothing, I'd still take this. These stories exist as much for me in my imagination as on the page, and my imagination is a good editor.

[MarkDiLillo]

Frankly, when Brandon Sanderson came to his own personal conclusion that he could not even attempt to duplicate RJ's style of writing, that's when he should have turned the project down and given it to someone else.

 

Now that I disagree with - no author could truly duplicate Jordan. This is not to say that Jordan is "the best author evah, no one can match him!" Just that no two authors can ever really duplicate one another. So the ability to duplicate Jordan could never have been the deciding factor, or the series would have had to have ended after Knife of Dreams.

 

Also, I'm not sure that there was a line of quality authors around the block waiting to take this up. We should keep that in mind - there may be authors out there who could have done a better job than Sanderson, but I'm not actually sure that there are authors out there who could have done a better job and were willing to take the job.

 

I wish that Sanderson had done a better job, but given the choice between this and nothing, I'd still take this. These stories exist as much for me in my imagination as on the page, and my imagination is a good editor.

 

He didn't have to duplicate Jordan. He just had to be able to be confident enough in his abilities that he could attempt to duplicate Jordan. Would it be perfect? Nope. But there are authors out there who could have written in a way that we would have been hard pressed to tell who wrote what scene.

 

I am not going to speculate on the process behind getting an author to finish the books. All I'm saying is that when Brandon Sanderson came to the conclusion that he could not even ATTEMPT to duplicate RJ...that's when he should have passed on the project.

[randsc]

I get Elayne not reacting openly. But why is Egwene's reaction so muted? Or Rand's? For that matter, how did Talmanes go through Caemlyn and not feel for its people more? One of the iconic locations of WoT has been destroyed, and for all the reaction we get, its like the Farmer in Salesin died!

 

Also not surprising. Particularly for Talmanes, who was in the thick of it. You don't spare a thought for the dead in a fire while you are still working to save the living. I have never been in combat, but I imagine it is much the same.

 

Rand is gonna pretty zen about pretty much everything now. He is also exactly right that keeping everyone together rather than letting them chase after problems in their kingdoms is paramount.

 

Egwene is just badly written.

[KakitaOCU]

I've never really liked the discussion point on "What about other authors". It's too subjective.

 

I mean if you asked me who actually has the writing ability and intellect to handle the books back when this all began, the only name I could even begin to suggest is Modesitt. But let's be honest, even if he had been willing it would have been a disaster, Mr Modesitt's works, and I believe he himself from my understanding, are completely opposed to the idea of an actual "evil" vs just some people good, some bad, always two sides to a conflict.

 

About the only author I've ever seen even remotely similar to RJ in terms of how the story flowed... Yeah, let's just say if they had picked that indiividual I'd have boycotted TOR, and no, I won't say who it is, but it's not hard to figure out if you think about it.

[MasterAblar]

She points out the very flaw in Rand's explanation to Nynaeve that I did.

 

What did you mean by this? Egwene thinks that breaking them right at the beginning is a bad idea, and that they should be broken at the right time. But Rand intends to go to Shayol Ghul right after breaking the which Egwene may not be aware of. From what she said, she seems to believe that Rand intends to allow the DO to be free during the war, which obviously Rand does not intend to do. He means to face the DO right away.

 

That said I was very happy to see these thoughts from her:

 

At the very least, we need to discuss it. Rand has been right about many things, but he has been wrong, too. This is not a decision he should be allowed to make alone

 

Now where was that during ToM?!

 

I wish that Sanderson had done a better job, but given the choice between this and nothing, I'd still take this. These stories exist as much for me in my imagination as on the page, and my imagination is a good editor.

 

This.

[Luckers]

I've never really liked the discussion point on "What about other authors". It's too subjective.

 

It's also pointless. Let's be honest, despite the talk of a shortlist, they needed a Tor based author who was familiar with the Wheel and had enough experience as a writer to try and write it, but not enough experience to turn it down--Stephen Donaldson's reply to the question is particularily apt.

 

Brandon was all they had, and I recognize this, and hold it under consideration when I criticize him, as I do all the elements that make this more difficult than simply writing your own work.

[MarkDiLillo]

I've never really liked the discussion point on "What about other authors". It's too subjective.

 

I mean if you asked me who actually has the writing ability and intellect to handle the books back when this all began, the only name I could even begin to suggest is Modesitt. But let's be honest, even if he had been willing it would have been a disaster, Mr Modesitt's works, and I believe he himself from my understanding, are completely opposed to the idea of an actual "evil" vs just some people good, some bad, always two sides to a conflict.

 

About the only author I've ever seen even remotely similar to RJ in terms of how the story flowed... Yeah, let's just say if they had picked that indiividual I'd have boycotted TOR, and no, I won't say who it is, but it's not hard to figure out if you think about it.

 

1) You're right. Getting into a discussion of which author should have finished it is futile. Everyone has an opinion. All I was saying is that Brandon Sanderson should have passed on this when he realized it was beyond his personal talents as an author. If he passed on it and Harriet came back to him and said "you're our only hope" then you know what...that'd be different. That's not what happened though.

 

2) Books should have been written by a nameless ghostwriter IMO.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I get Elayne not reacting openly. But why is Egwene's reaction so muted? Or Rand's? For that matter, how did Talmanes go through Caemlyn and not feel for its people more? One of the iconic locations of WoT has been destroyed, and for all the reaction we get, its like the Farmer in Salesin died!

 

I don't think Rand was too strange. He had expected something like this, and he has seen cities balefired out of existence, Caemlyn being overrun by Trollocs wouldn't be a big deal. He is sorry that it happened, but he won't get upset over it.

 

Egwene I think was shocked as Elayne was. She has never experienced war, not truly, and not war with Shadowspawn. Seeing Caemlyn, the whole city on fire, would have been shocking. I think she was just focusing, shutting everything else out.

[Luckers]

I've never really liked the discussion point on "What about other authors". It's too subjective.

 

I mean if you asked me who actually has the writing ability and intellect to handle the books back when this all began, the only name I could even begin to suggest is Modesitt. But let's be honest, even if he had been willing it would have been a disaster, Mr Modesitt's works, and I believe he himself from my understanding, are completely opposed to the idea of an actual "evil" vs just some people good, some bad, always two sides to a conflict.

 

About the only author I've ever seen even remotely similar to RJ in terms of how the story flowed... Yeah, let's just say if they had picked that indiividual I'd have boycotted TOR, and no, I won't say who it is, but it's not hard to figure out if you think about it.

 

1) You're right. Getting into a discussion of which author should have finished it is futile. Everyone has an opinion. All I was saying is that Brandon Sanderson should have passed on this when he realized it was beyond his personal talents as an author. If he passed on it and Harriet came back to him and said "you're our only hope" then you know what...that'd be different. That's not what happened though.

 

2) Books should have been written by a nameless ghostwriter IMO.

 

No. I disagree... Jordan's notes were too incomplete for a ghost writer. Brandon WAS the best option.

[MarkDiLillo]

With all the talk of a short list, and needing a TOR author, etc....why would it have been impossible to contract out a ghostwriter to finish the thing?

[randsc]

What did Donaldson say, exactly?

[MarkDiLillo]

I've never really liked the discussion point on "What about other authors". It's too subjective.

 

I mean if you asked me who actually has the writing ability and intellect to handle the books back when this all began, the only name I could even begin to suggest is Modesitt. But let's be honest, even if he had been willing it would have been a disaster, Mr Modesitt's works, and I believe he himself from my understanding, are completely opposed to the idea of an actual "evil" vs just some people good, some bad, always two sides to a conflict.

 

About the only author I've ever seen even remotely similar to RJ in terms of how the story flowed... Yeah, let's just say if they had picked that indiividual I'd have boycotted TOR, and no, I won't say who it is, but it's not hard to figure out if you think about it.

 

1) You're right. Getting into a discussion of which author should have finished it is futile. Everyone has an opinion. All I was saying is that Brandon Sanderson should have passed on this when he realized it was beyond his personal talents as an author. If he passed on it and Harriet came back to him and said "you're our only hope" then you know what...that'd be different. That's not what happened though.

 

2) Books should have been written by a nameless ghostwriter IMO.

 

No. I disagree... Jordan's notes were too incomplete for a ghost writer. Brandon WAS the best option.

 

Eh, maybe...I feel like they could have hired Brandon or used Harriet to fill in plot holes while hired an experienced ghostwriter to take care of the actual writing. But who knows, I dont know the details behind writing and I dont know the amount of money that's involved in something like this. Financial decisions certainly change things.

 

On that note though, does anyone have a clue as to how much money each of these books generated to the author? Or how much RJ made over the course of this series? I'm asking mostly because i literally haven't a clue how much an author like RJ makes. No clue if the guy was worth 20 million or 500k from WoT.

[Luckers]

What did Donaldson say, exactly?

 

That writing in other writers worlds was for hacks. It was his answer when asked if he'd been asked to finish the Wheel, and what his response would be.

[Suttree]

What did Donaldson say, exactly?

 

That writing in other writers worlds was for hacks. It was his answer when asked if he'd been asked to finish the Wheel, and what his response would be.

 

That was a pretty big shot across the bow, I've always wondered if Sanderson was aware of it.

 

In addition you have a very good point about the notes being far too incomplete for a ghost writer.

 

 

Edit: found it...

 

Bryan Jones: I have read both yours and Robert Jordans books(and many others) and enjoy reading them completely. As a reader I am confused by your denial to read Jordan. When I found out that Jordan was going to pass away without finishing his last book leaving his lagecy unfinished I was saddened. When I found out they were looking for an author to finish his books I was surprised that you were not first on the list. Is there an anamosity between you and Jordan? I think you would be the first and only author that could do justice to the Wheel of Time. Would there be any way for you to be a part of the developement of the last book? It will be a shame for a story to end horribly when I know that you could make the ending book the best it could be.

I am sorry if I offend you by asking this question. I mean no offense. I am trying to understand why the only choice for ending Jordan's saga with the very best author isn't being done. Isn't the story the most important thing? I can't answer a message like this. It's a bit like asking, "Why haven't you stopped beating your wife?" There are so many underlying--and unwarrented--assumptions that no answer is possible.

 

Just one example. Why do you think that I would consider giving up my own work for the sake of someone else's? Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

But I'm posting this because I want to make a more general point. I wouldn't agree to work with someone else's characters, settings, themes, or stories, even if you held a gun to my head. That's what hacks are for. (Don't get me wrong. Being a hack can be a perfectly honorable profession. It simply isn't *my* profession.) Now, if you held a gun to the head of someone I love, I would naturally agree to anything. But I would be lying. Unashamedly. Stalling for time until I could take a whack at you. The very idea of trying to do someone else's work fills me with existential nausea.

[Neophyte]

What did Donaldson say, exactly?

 

That writing in other writers worlds was for hacks. It was his answer when asked if he'd been asked to finish the Wheel, and what his response would be.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this categorically, but I can certainly see it being the position of many, if not most, successful writers.

[David Selig]

So Jordan is a hack then, since he wrote Conan novels. ;)

[MarkDiLillo]

So Jordan is a hack then, since he wrote Conan novels. ;)

 

Apparently. I feel like thats a pretty ignorant statement by Donaldson.

[Luckers]

To be clear I don't agree with the statement. I do think it's apt though.

[mjasghar786]

RJ had to do some hack work so people would trust him to do his own thing

Donaldson has to market himself as a bog shot , someone who can sell purely on his name

[Neophyte]

RJ had to do some hack work so people would trust him to do his own thing

Donaldson has to market himself as a bog shot , someone who can sell purely on his name

 

Everyone has typos, so I'm not picking on you here, but "bog shot" would be a particularly nasty kind of shotgun ammo.

[randsc]

Hmm. I'd say Donaldson takes himself a mite too seriously.

[Casco]

Hmm. I'd say Donaldson takes himself a mite too seriously.

Thank the light he didnt get his hands on WoT. He would have spent 23 more books just on Rand fighting his own mind before the last battle, driving us readers insane with strange and crazy plots in Rands mind.

[mjasghar786]

Lol iPhone I and o too close

[putts]

So much happened in this chapter...yet it was all taken in stride as if its no big deal.

 

Andor just got CRUSHED by the shadow and everyone is just like "you guys did well lets do what we can" as if this happens every weekend. I mean wtf...Elayne just lost the city and maybe kingdom she worked so hard for in one night and she seems totally OK with it.

 

Compared to the end of the world, which is currently on the minds of all the characters, the loss of her city pales in comparison. After all, if they don't win the LB, she loses not only Caemlyn but all of Andor to eternal darkness. Eyes on the prize. Eyes on the prize.

 

Frankly, when Brandon Sanderson came to his own personal conclusion that he could not even attempt to duplicate RJ's style of writing, that's when he should have turned the project down and given it to someone else.

 

Just to throw my vote in the hat ... I'll take BS' work over nothing at all. Did you watch the new X-Men movies? Or the new Avengers movies? Did you enjoy any of them (or any other super hero movie for that matter)? They were portrayals of original characters. Sometimes you find something you don't like but hopefully you can find other aspects that you don't like. If it's that overwhelming to you, then simply don't read and let the WoT die for you at the same time Jordan passed, himself. You'll be happier for it. As for me, I will enjoy seeing his vision come to a conclusion ... even if not by his own hand/voice.

 

I get Elayne not reacting openly. But why is Egwene's reaction so muted? Or Rand's? For that matter, how did Talmanes go through Caemlyn and not feel for its people more? One of the iconic locations of WoT has been destroyed, and for all the reaction we get, its like the Farmer in Salesin died!

 

Captain Guoboyn (sp?) gives us the glimpse you're asking for. The gut-wrenched feeling of despair from a human whose whole world rests with that one city. The feeling of guilt and despair over seeing its walls crash. THAT is the emotion of a man who is caught up in the moment and emotionally attached. Given, it's not a huge part of the story but to act like there's no one giving a hoot over the whole ordeal just because a handful of people preparing aren't emotionally distraught seems like a person who enjoyed the movie presentation of Dumbledore who was constantly yelling at people as opposed to the book version who was always composed and stayed within himself.

 

2) Books should have been written by a nameless ghostwriter IMO.

 

To not give BS credit given the amount of hours and effort that he has put into this project would be a slap in the face and to say that his amount of work was not even worth getting his name on the book. I've tried to finish fellow programmers' coding projects and have spent probably 3 times the amount of time it would have taken them because I was not as sure of the parameters and interpretations they had put into the code. I'm not even going to try to comprehend how difficult it is to try to do that with a series of characters that have zealous fans and will hunt down any and all imperfections.

 

The only reason I see why BS truly decided to do this was because he, like us, wanted to see the end of this series. To see how the story all plays out. The scrutiny he has probably received from this project has probably made his life miserable many days. He may have even considered walking away. But he stayed. Stayed so that you could see how it all unfolds. Say what you want, but I am grateful for his time and effort and take the bad (what he can't imitate) with the good (the fact he has the ability to write in another man's world well enough that I'm not taken out of the moment every other sentence).