Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[Matthew Schreder]

If Demandred ends up turning back to the Light, I will be disappointed. I guess it is pretty obvious at this point that someone is going to and I feel like that person should have had a lot fo screen time. Maybe that makes the turning more obvious. We've all been wondering what Demandred has been up to, he's barely mentioned in the story.

 

Also, what were you guys really expecting from BS? He was never going to be able to write the end of this story like RJ. Whoever was picked would have been in a no win situation. I'm just glad we're getting the end of the story.

 

yes i completely agree. thank goodness we get the end of the story!!!!

[Suttree]

Have to say as well it was really nice to be correct about Egwene and the WT. They have been dragged through the mud enough at this point. The fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things runs counter to what a ton of people were saying.

 

AMoL

 

]“If it is to be done—and I still don’t know that it has to be—we should wait until the last possible moment. At the very least, we need to discuss it. Rand has been right about many things, but he has been wrong, too. This is not a decision he should be allowed to make alone.”

 

 

Man how many times have we argued this only to be shouted down by a group exclaiming how dare she question the Dragon! What place is it of hers! The funny thing being when some argued that Egwene should not be questioning Rand do they forget that Moiraine advised her to do exactly that...

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

“You do that, Moiraine,” Egwene told her.

 

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

[Neophyte]

Mark and Neophyte, has RJ out of the books said the DO is an unaging force there since the dawn of creation? (I'm not as thouroughly versed in his interviews and such as I'd like to be, if he said that then my thoughts on this topic will change dramatically.).

 

From an interview found here:

 

MARTIN REZNICK

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

 

The Dark One is essentially the equal and opposite balance to the Creator. The BWB (not a 100% reliable source, but with the context of this quote I trust it) says that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the beginning of time - hence "he" must have existed before creation.

 

Padan Fain is a bad man, but he's not qualified for that kind of ascension ... or descent, perhaps.

[David Selig]

Shouldn't Egwene consider it suspicious that Roedran refused her offer for Gateways to transport his army to Merrilor, but accepted Elayne's for the same, given that Andor and Murandy are traditional enemies?

[Neophyte]

The fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things runs counter to what a ton of people were saying.

 

To be fair, as of ToM, "the fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things" runs counter to what she was saying, too.

[Neophyte]

Shouldn't Egwene consider it suspicious that Roedran refused her offer for Gateways to transport his army to Merrilor, but accepted Elayne's for the same, given that Andor and Murandy are traditional enemies?

 

You beat me to it - it was on my list to hit - but it is odd.

[Suttree]

The fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things runs counter to what a ton of people were saying.

 

To be fair, as of ToM, "the fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things" runs counter to what she was saying, too.

 

Which made no sense which is exactly why people had an issue with it. In addition nice that we can put to bed the myth that the WT library had nothing to contribute above and beyond what LTT and Fel knew so there was no reason to include them in the research. That would of course being very unrealistic given it is the greatest repository of knowledge in the world.

[KakitaOCU]

Neophyte, thank you. So in that case, what if what has to happen with DO and Fain is like what Rand did to Cleanse the Taint? Perhaps they counter each other in a way that destroys Fain but leaves the DO so weak that he's effectively non-existant?

 

As for ToM Egwene, I don't know that it runs counter, she doesn't say or point out she's doing research, but that doesn't mean she's not. Rather it's sloppy or not is going to be mostly opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me for her to be doing this on the side but not bringing it up when she's talking to people. As I said in the thread about her, if I was trying to convince a king to come side with me on something I'm much more likely to phrase it to sound ilke Rand's insane and doing something reckless than I am to come out and say "He might be right, but we have to talk about it and figure out the details."

[Neophyte]

The fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things runs counter to what a ton of people were saying.

 

To be fair, as of ToM, "the fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things" runs counter to what she was saying, too.

 

Which made no sense which is exactly why people had an issue with it. In addition nice that we can put to bed the myth that the WT library had nothing to contribute above and beyond what LTT and Fel knew so there was no reason to include them in the research. That would of course being very unrealistic given it is the greatest repository of knowledge in the world.

 

Agreed.

[MasterAblar]

Have to say as well it was really nice to be correct about Egwene and the WT. They have been dragged through the mud enough at this point. The fact that she has researched and wants to discuss things runs counter to what a ton of people were saying.

 

AMoL

 

]“If it is to be done—and I still don’t know that it has to be—we should wait until the last possible moment. At the very least, we need to discuss it. Rand has been right about many things, but he has been wrong, too. This is not a decision he should be allowed to make alone.”

 

 

 

Like Neophyte said, while I'm really glad that Egwene is now thinking straight, and that she actually did research, her thoughts on the seals still run counter to those she had in ToM. Suddenly she's OK with them being destroyed, as long as it's at the right time, whereas in ToM, even at the very end, she was completely opposed to it.

 

And she still doesn't seem to give Rand enough credit. But she's always understimated him in the books so I'm okay with that.

 

Nonetheless, I was very pleased to read: "At the very least, we need to discuss it."

[Neophyte]

Neophyte, thank you. So in that case, what if what has to happen with DO and Fain is like what Rand did to Cleanse the Taint? Perhaps they counter each other in a way that destroys Fain but leaves the DO so weak that he's effectively non-existant?

 

I sincerely doubt that anything that anyone within the Pattern can do will directly damage the Dark One. "He" is simply such a different kind of being - more like a principle of physics than a "person" in many ways. That's not a perfect description, of course.

 

 

As for ToM Egwene, I don't know that it runs counter, she doesn't say or point out she's doing research, but that doesn't mean she's not. Rather it's sloppy or not is going to be mostly opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me for her to be doing this on the side but not bringing it up when she's talking to people. As I said in the thread about her, if I was trying to convince a king to come side with me on something I'm much more likely to phrase it to sound ilke Rand's insane and doing something reckless than I am to come out and say "He might be right, but we have to talk about it and figure out the details."

 

But that's the point. She's trying to get everyone on her side before she's apparently finished researching or considering the idea. She's forcing a confrontation when she should be pushing for a dialogue. How is she going to look if she got everyone to the meeting by saying "We have to stop him!" then at the meeting she says "Just kidding, my research indicates we just have to adjust his timing a little. Of course, I still want you all to entrust the fate of the world to him, even though I've been undercutting his trustworthiness all month"?

 

(A part of me wants to answer my own question: "Sandersonesque." But I fear that's a little mean spirited.)

[MasterAblar]

But that's the point. She's trying to get everyone on her side before she's apparently finished researching or considering the idea. She's forcing a confrontation when she should be pushing for a dialogue. How is she going to look if she got everyone to the meeting by saying "We have to stop him!" then at the meeting she says "Just kidding, my research indicates we just have to adjust his timing a little. Of course, I still want you all to entrust the fate of the world to him, even though I've been undercutting his trustworthiness all month"?

 

Stop stealing my ideas!

[KakitaOCU]

Neo, I agree it's a horrible idea, it's just something I could see happening. Maybe she felt she had no time to do the research first, maybe she had a panic attack when Rand basically said "You've got a month, GO!" Personally I can say there's a lot I'd have done differently in her shoes, but given the time frame, the being busy fighting two groups of assassins, one you don't actually know about, trying to get a herd of cats to act somewhat in unison. I can see how such a poor decision could be reached.

[Wolf505]

“Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin?” Rand said softly. “The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the Shadow itself? The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life. They came as Lews Therin whispering to me. But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win. Don’t you see? If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark One’s fall.”

Perrin whistled softly.

Redemption, Rand thought. When I tried this last time, my madness destroyed us.

This time, it will save us.

 

 

Loved this part. I've thought the same thing myself. It's ironic the Dark One's own taint is what will be his undoing in the Third Age.

[Suttree]

Another things that was nice to come across was....

 

AMoL

 

 

“Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin?” Rand said softly. “The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the Shadow itself? The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life. They came as Lews Therin whispering to me. But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win. Don’t you see? If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark One’s fall.”

 

 

It was always a bit frustrating watching people try to stretch the cause of the memories into differet things when there was such a straight forward answer.

[mjasghar786]

Additional (though very minor) quibble -

 

Rand's PoV:

 

Rand walked toward Sebban Balwer, whose services Perrin had loaned to Rand. Which was fine with Balwer, who was prone to gravitate toward those holding the greatest power.

 

Did the PoV slip into omniscience? Or does Rand know Balwer that well? And later:

 

Balwer was the best at what he did, and was confident in his own abilities. Still, it did no harm to be reminded of the fact by one who employed him, particularly if his employer was none other

than the Dragon Reborn.

 

How does Rand know Balwer is "the best"? Didn't he just meet him less than 24 hours previously? How long have these people been at the Field of Merrilor?

 

Ummm pretty obvious that is from balwer pov -

Clunklely done shift though

[mjasghar786]

Well maybe the DO wants to be free permanently - which would tie in with the whole permanent solution and the fain replacement theory

 

[Suttree]

Additional (though very minor) quibble -

 

Rand's PoV:

 

Rand walked toward Sebban Balwer, whose services Perrin had loaned to Rand. Which was fine with Balwer, who was prone to gravitate toward those holding the greatest power.

 

Did the PoV slip into omniscience? Or does Rand know Balwer that well? And later:

 

Balwer was the best at what he did, and was confident in his own abilities. Still, it did no harm to be reminded of the fact by one who employed him, particularly if his employer was none other than the Dragon Reborn.

 

How does Rand know Balwer is "the best"? Didn't he just meet him less than 24 hours previously? How long have these people been at the Field of Merrilor?

This REALLY annoyed me too. Rand only met Bawler a few hours ago. This scene makes it sound like he's known him for a long time.

 

I also found it strange that Balwer would not have known of Elayne's spies within the clerks and act shocked at the thought. This would be the first time we see him caught out and it is weird that he wouldn't have considered it.

[mjasghar786]

Ok I see a lot of criticism of changing personalities - but remember this is one book split into 3 so the original plot would have been much tighter

Some of those opinions were probably held for a day or 3 but seem to us to be for ages then suddenly shift

[fionwe1987]

Shouldn't Egwene consider it suspicious that Roedran refused her offer for Gateways to transport his army to Merrilor, but accepted Elayne's for the same, given that Andor and Murandy are traditional enemies?

I think this was a mistake. After refusing the honor of being escorted by three Aes Sedai, he sulks that he needs to depend on Elayne?

 

Even if this is Demandred hoping to avoid Aes Sedai, this is a painfully transparent way to do it.

[Neophyte]

I'm just going to keep spilling them into this thread. Additional quibble:

 

“Tell the people,” Rand said to his clerks. “Post warnings. Earthquakes will continue. Storms. Real ones, terrible ones. There will be a Breaking, and we cannot avoid it. The Dark One will try to grind this world to dust.”

 

Post warnings? Really? I mean honestly, what are they going to put up, this:

 

WARNING: This planet is a hard hat area. Earthquake and storms likely. Everyone please assume the crash position.

 

Post warnings. Honestly.

[MarkDiLillo]

LOL thats a good one

[Neophyte]

I also found it strange that Balwer would not have known of Elayne's spies within the clerks and act shocked at the thought. This would be the first time we see him caught out and it is weird that he wouldn't have considered it.

 

I'm not sure he was caught out so much as surprised that Rand would ask him in such a direct way.

 

At least that's what I'm hoping it is ...

[Terez]

Another things that was nice to come across was....

 

AMoL

 

 

“Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin?” Rand said softly. “The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the Shadow itself? The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life. They came as Lews Therin whispering to me. But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win. Don’t you see? If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark One’s fall.”

 

 

It was always a bit frustrating watching people try to stretch the cause of the memories into differet things when there was such a straight forward answer.

 

It's just a repeat of what he said in TGS.

 

He glanced down at her. "For that . . . I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or . . . or I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."

[Suttree]

Another things that was nice to come across was....

 

AMoL

 

 

“Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin?” Rand said softly. “The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the Shadow itself? The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life. They came as Lews Therin whispering to me. But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win. Don’t you see? If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark One’s fall.”

 

 

It was always a bit frustrating watching people try to stretch the cause of the memories into differet things when there was such a straight forward answer.

 

It's just a repeat of what he said in TGS.

 

He glanced down at her. "For that . . . I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or . . . or I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."

 

Shockingly that didn't stop people from arguing the memories didn't come from the taint...