Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[thisguy]

Rand has said there will be another breaking. I'm pretty sure of it. I think a lot of their issues will fly out the window upon their rebuilding.

 

I remember Birgitte mentioning how she helped in the founding of the WT. The wheel's at a place of destruction and change and will eventually turn into a place of construction and change and then even out for a while.

 

We'll see. Or rather we won't see. All of this will most likely end up unresolved which will frustrate us to the final days of our lives unless Harriett does release RJ outline for the future at some point.

Hahahaha! Good point.

[MountaineerWV]

You can apply that to the White Tower as well.

 

What is their purpose going to be after the DO is sealed away? It won't be to guard against the Shadow.

 

Whatever purpose they find, it will most likely be the same for the WT and the BT.

 

The optimist in me want to say that they are supposed to be Aes Sedai - Servants of All. There will plenty of service to be done in rebuilding the world after Tarmon Gai'don. But they'll probably become the focus of resistance to the Seanchan.

 

That is going by Avi's vision. I don't believe that will come to pass. We may not see the absolute end of the A'dam, but I do believe we will see the opening movements to the a'dam being abolished. Without the a'dam, the Seanchan will have to adapt and won't be the powerhouse it is in its current form.

 

 

The WT has existed for over 2000 years and there were female AS since the AOL. The AS have a long history and that gives them inertia, even without a brand new goal they'll continue to exist. Not to stand watch against the Shadow perhaps, but they'll continue to meddle with and temper the affairs of the world even if no one wants them to. The Asha'man have barely existed for a year. The situations are clearly different.

 

A large part of the White Tower's authority comes from the belief they are holding back the Shadow. The nation's leaders, nobles, and the educated know this, though the peasants of the south may not. That belief, along with the Three Oaths, at least give the impression of AS being benefactors of Light. The meddling is tolerated because of this seeming selfless service.

 

Once the Shadow is defeat and AS continue to meddle and they concentrate wealth, political power, and a power (channeling) to which no one else has access, the other nations will quickly turn on them. No sovereign nation is going to accept the WT meddling for its own benefit.

[thisguy]

 

A large part of the White Tower's authority comes from the belief they are holding back the Shadow. The nation's leaders, nobles, and the educated know this, though the peasants of the south may not. That belief, along with the Three Oaths, at least give the impression of AS being benefactors of Light. The meddling is tolerated because of this seeming selfless service.

 

Once the Shadow is defeat and AS continue to meddle and they concentrate wealth, political power, and a power (channeling) to which no one else has access, the other nations will quickly turn on them. No sovereign nation is going to accept the WT meddling for its own benefit.

 

That's a really good point, and a definite possibility. The Borderlanders give them the most respect and that's because they know that shadow and trollocs, etc aren't just fireside stories.

[Ian Ohlander]

Ok wrong verb. She did what Rand needed not what Rand wanted. And others said there was the pattened dizzyness after the ta'veren effect released her from its grip.

Nope. The dizziness is very similar to how Tuon reacted after defying his ta'veren pull.

 

You're forgetting the dizziness that Galad experienced right after swearing to follow Perrin. He touched his head at his dizziness and Perrin told him to sit down and let the effect wear off. When Galad asks what he is talking about, Perrin tells him he knows how it feels to get caught up in a taveren swirl making you decide in a certain direction.

 

So we have the dizziness effect when someone resists Taveren (Tuon) and when someone is pulled into a Taveren swirl and does what the pattern wants.

 

That leaves Egwene's speaking to Rand in Chapter 1 of TOM open to interpretation. Either she successfully resisted Rand or the pattern wanted her to be able to speak and do what she has done. But lending support for the latter is this. In Tuon's case she felt the taveren pressure keenly. Remember, she kept thinking of excuses to make a deal with this dangerous man and only with the greatest effort was able to resist him. It took all her will to say no, and after he left, she sat there for quite a while composing herself. We don't see any of that from Egwene's POV after Rand left. Just the trace dizziness similar to Galad's.

[Neophyte]

You can apply that to the White Tower as well.

 

What is their purpose going to be after the DO is sealed away? It won't be to guard against the Shadow.

 

Whatever purpose they find, it will most likely be the same for the WT and the BT.

 

The optimist in me want to say that they are supposed to be Aes Sedai - Servants of All. There will plenty of service to be done in rebuilding the world after Tarmon Gai'don. But they'll probably become the focus of resistance to the Seanchan.

 

That is going by Avi's vision. I don't believe that will come to pass. We may not see the absolute end of the A'dam, but I do believe we will see the opening movements to the a'dam being abolished. Without the a'dam, the Seanchan will have to adapt and won't be the powerhouse it is in its current form.

 

 

Actually, I thought that long before we saw Aviendha's flash-forward; I've thought it ever since I read Nicola's Foretelling in LoC ch 14, and it was reinforced in my mind as Egwene went through the process of becoming the Amyrlin Seat. I do think that they will find a way to avoid the scenario shown to Aviendha, but I do not believe that just because they can avoid that particular sequence of events that the Seanchan will just be willing to do away with the a'dam. I honestly can't see a path to convincing Fortuona to be rid of it - even if she, personally, is forced to channel, I think she would see herself leashed and a new Empress put in place before she gave in. She seems to honestly believe that channelers are not even fully human.

 

But even if - if the Seanchan are somehow convinced to cease using the a'dam, I sincerely doubt that they will either relinquish their currently held lands, or cease opposing the White Tower. And they will always have numbers advantages, for the reasons stated above. The Seanchan will always have more channelers with a stronger support system because the Simply avoiding the future Aviendha saw (if that can be done) does not suddenly make the Seanchan threat vanish.

 

Actually, there is the real possibility that, assuming the ability to channel slowly (and I mean over several hundred or even a couple thousand years) vanishes throughout the Fourth Age that the Seanchan Empire unifying the world could turn out to be a good thing. As Empires go, they're not a particularly bad one, except in how they handle their channelers.

[thisguy]

I think Tuon would have gone over to Rand if he wasn't in Dark Rand mode. She saw the shadow surrounding him and resisted.

[driedraspberry]

Couple of random questions/clarifications for the rest of the book:

 

Shouldn't Rand dislike Gawyn? When Min/Rand were captured, wasn't Gawyn a part of Galina's guard? Shouldn't he have issue with a man that was there when his love (albeit not at the time) was getting beaten?

 

Doesn't Moiraine think Cadsuane is Black? (At least didn't she in NS?)

 

Is it known how strong Logain is in the power? After Ny cures him, he nearly breaks her shield. Doesn't that suggest he's around Chosen-level? I wonder 'cos it seems set up that Taim/Logain face-off, and I was just wondering if they are comparable strengths, considering Mog suggests Taim may be as powerful as the Chosen.

 

Thanks!

 

Logain is more powerful than Taim. Logain is most likely one step below Rand, who is as powerful as a man can get. Taim held near as much power as Rand before Rand reached his full potential. Logain after Rand has maxed. Thus Logain is more powerful.

I thought Rand considered Logain a little weaker than him in KoD. And Taim in aCoS. I don't think there was much difference in his OP strength.

[Ian Ohlander]

I think Tuon would have gone over to Rand if he wasn't in Dark Rand mode. She saw the shadow surrounding him and resisted.

 

I agree with this. She said something (out loud or in a POV) like "we cannot ally with this creature." If he hadn't been dark, her reason for resisting Rand would have been much less.

 

And again, the fact that Egwene doesn't experience any of that indicates that her speaking to Rand and "defying" him were actually right in line with the pattern's needs.

[Neophyte]

I think Tuon would have gone over to Rand if he wasn't in Dark Rand mode. She saw the shadow surrounding him and resisted.

 

Doubt it. She might have been willing to temporarily ally with him - maybe. But only because she was not yet Empress. As Empress, she can bow to no one in any thing. Her thoughts didn't waver on that for a moment.

 

Even when he was putting the full ta'veren pressure on her, she never even considered shifting on the issue of marath damane, even though she knows that is the the most significant issue dividing them. To me, that indicates that such a shift is not merely unlikely (which ta'veren can overcome) but impossible in her current state.

 

Maybe something will have to happen to change that, but it had better be done right. If she just *poof* changes her mind, I'll be pretty upset.

[thisguy]

I think Tuon would have gone over to Rand if he wasn't in Dark Rand mode. She saw the shadow surrounding him and resisted.

 

Doubt it. She might have been willing to temporarily ally with him - maybe. But only because she was not yet Empress. As Empress, she can bow to no one in any thing. Her thoughts didn't waver on that for a moment.

 

Even when he was putting the full ta'veren pressure on her, she never even considered shifting on the issue of marath damane, even though she knows that is the the most significant issue dividing them. To me, that indicates that such a shift is not merely unlikely (which ta'veren can overcome) but impossible in her current state.

 

Maybe something will have to happen to change that, but it had better be done right. If she just *poof* changes her mind, I'll be pretty upset.

Well, yes, that was what he was asking of her, to stop the war until after TG. I meant she would have done what he asked. She almost did, if you read the chapter, it was the darkness that frightened her.

[MountaineerWV]

But even if - if the Seanchan are somehow convinced to cease using the a'dam, I sincerely doubt that they will either relinquish their currently held lands, or cease opposing the White Tower. And they will always have numbers advantages, for the reasons stated above. The Seanchan will always have more channelers with a stronger support system because the Simply avoiding the future Aviendha saw (if that can be done) does not suddenly make the Seanchan threat vanish.

 

I absolutely agree that the Seanchan won't give back their conquered lands or cease opposing the WT simply because of a change in Avi's future. Without the A'dam, they are no stronger than any other nation. Their Empire is built on the a'dam.

 

I don't know if in Avi's future the Seanchan mainland was reunited under Tuon. I'm guessing probably yes simply because they did NOT give up the a'dam. That implies that Tuon was able to gather soldiers, damane, and supplies from the mainland. Even with the support of a continent many times the size of Randland, it took generations to defeat the WT, Aiel, BT, and the remaining Westland countries. Without that logistical support, Tuon and the Seanchan will never be able to defeat the Dragon nations.

[Amandera]

Only likely scenario I see Seanchan getting rid of a'dam is:

 

They are pretty battered after Tarmon Gaidon, they are tired of fighting and they don't want to anymore. Except leashing Wise Ones, Aes Sedai and Windfinders is too big an insult to the respective people and unless they release them to their people war is unavoidable. So they release channelers they leashed after coming to Randland but keep their own. Hundred years pass, they slowly adopt to Randland culture and over time they decide maybe OP is not such a bad thing and there is really no point in keeping weapons when the world is peaceful.

[Neophyte]

But even if - if the Seanchan are somehow convinced to cease using the a'dam, I sincerely doubt that they will either relinquish their currently held lands, or cease opposing the White Tower. And they will always have numbers advantages, for the reasons stated above. The Seanchan will always have more channelers with a stronger support system because the Simply avoiding the future Aviendha saw (if that can be done) does not suddenly make the Seanchan threat vanish.

 

I absolutely agree that the Seanchan won't give back their conquered lands or cease opposing the WT simply because of a change in Avi's future. Without the A'dam, they are no stronger than any other nation. Their Empire is built on the a'dam.

 

I don't know if in Avi's future the Seanchan mainland was reunited under Tuon. I'm guessing probably yes simply because they did NOT give up the a'dam. That implies that Tuon was able to gather soldiers, damane, and supplies from the mainland. Even with the support of a continent many times the size of Randland, it took generations to defeat the WT, Aiel, BT, and the remaining Westland countries. Without that logistical support, Tuon and the Seanchan will never be able to defeat the Dragon nations.

 

Given what (admittedly little) we know about the intended arc of the outriggers, is seems likely that the Empire will be reunited. And while the Empire was built on the power of the a'dam, now that it had existed for centuries and has created its own culture, it could survive abandoning the a'dam. (I'm not sure Fortuona really understands that, but if she ever does, it might be something that could begin to influence her to consider abandoning the use of the a'dam.) There are other cultural bases for loyalty to the Empire than being leashed - bases that didn't exist in the time of Luthair.

 

Even without the a'dam, they are certainly stronger than any other nation. Without the threat of the a'dam, it is doubtful that the nations of Randland would unite against them, and they could be conquered in a much more piecemeal way. Political accommodations could be made, temporary alliances, etc - the Seanchan would still be far and away the most powerful player in the game. The a'dam gave them a tactical advantage, but it also united their enemies against them. If they do give it up, they could accomplish as much by assimilation as they did by conquest in the other scenario.

 

And I have little doubt that the White Tower will oppose them either way. With the a'dam or without, there is no place for the Aes Sedai in the Empire.

 

But in truth, all of this is so far off into the realm of speculation that I doubt we'll come to a definitive conclusion here, so ...

[thisguy]

Speculation is fun, though. :)

 

The three groups that will never bow their heads to the Seanchan (as they are now) are the Aiel, the AS and the Ashaman. Actually, add to the Sea Folk. That's actually a pretty powerful coallition if they could get their shit together. If the borderlanders still respect the AS after TG, they'll probably come to the call, too.

 

What the Randlandians could do is drive them out of Randland and then go to some parts of Seandar and make allies with people who want to bring down the Empire or replace the Empress. There are probably tons of people. Then lend aid to those people and fight them over there so that they don't have to fight them over here. ;)

[Sid]

Speculation is fun, though. :)

 

The three groups that will never bow their heads to the Seanchan (as they are now) are the Aiel, the AS and the Ashaman. Actually, add to the Sea Folk. That's actually a pretty powerful coallition if they could get their shit together. If the borderlanders still respect the AS after TG, they'll probably come to the call, too.

It would take a lot of Ta'veren twisting to get Aiel and Sea Folk to form an alliance, and Aes Sedai and Asha'man might be even more difficult. All four working as a single unit could defeat the Seanchan, but to achieve that unity (which the Seanchan's structure enforces better than any other single country already) in the short amount of time they have before they would be weakened and the Seanchan strengthened by their division is extremely unlikely. All four groups were destroyed in Avi's vision, mostly due to never achieving the unity needed to succeed.

 

I'm curious how these disparate factions (plus the Seanchan themselves) will ever come to even a temporary agreement that can be explained in a way that sounds at all reasonable. The tiny bit of groundwork that Egwene laid for the Aiel/SF is a small start, and letting Logain escape is a boost to their relations, but that is far from really working together, and Egwene, the lynchpin in those relations, is the iron wedge between them and the Seanchan. Three Ta'veren in one place and a cloud of fireflies might be able to help, but unless there's more underneath that plot-convenience (which comes close to stretching credulity even in Jordan's hands) it'll likely be a letdown. I'm still curious, though.

[thisguy]

Speculation is fun, though. :)

 

The three groups that will never bow their heads to the Seanchan (as they are now) are the Aiel, the AS and the Ashaman. Actually, add to the Sea Folk. That's actually a pretty powerful coallition if they could get their shit together. If the borderlanders still respect the AS after TG, they'll probably come to the call, too.

It would take a lot of Ta'veren twisting to get Aiel and Sea Folk to form an alliance, and Aes Sedai and Asha'man might be even more difficult. All four working as a single unit could defeat the Seanchan, but to achieve that unity (which the Seanchan's structure enforces better than any other single country already) in the short amount of time they have before they would be weakened and the Seanchan strengthened by their division is extremely unlikely. All four groups were destroyed in Avi's vision, mostly due to never achieving the unity needed to succeed.

 

I'm curious how these disparate factions (plus the Seanchan themselves) will ever come to even a temporary agreement that can be explained in a way that sounds at all reasonable. The tiny bit of groundwork that Egwene laid for the Aiel/SF is a small start, and letting Logain escape is a boost to their relations, but that is far from really working together, and Egwene, the lynchpin in those relations, is the iron wedge between them and the Seanchan. Three Ta'veren in one place and a cloud of fireflies might be able to help, but unless there's more underneath that plot-convenience (which comes close to stretching credulity even in Jordan's hands) it'll likely be a letdown. I'm still curious, though.

 

The best way I can see is - the Power. Most obviously, with the AS and Ashaman, their entire culture revolves around it. But, so does the culture of the Seafolk in a more subtle way. They've kept the secret of their windfinders for centuries. No windfinders and the Seafolk culture in all ways takes a huge hit. The Aiel - their culture is less defined by their channelers but the threat of losing a large portion of their Wise Ones coupled with the fact that eventually they'd have to fight or lose their ability to live the way they want should be enough.

 

The capture and enslavement (and maybe death in regards to male channelers) may be enough to bind them together.

[fionwe1987]

I'd reply to specific posts, but I don't have much time, so...

 

The Egwene-Rand-ta'veren issue:

 

I have no difficulty believing that what Egwene did in the Hall of the Tower was exactly what the Pattern wanted. The question is if she did it because of some immediate ta'veren pressure. I think anyone who knows Egwene knows that there was no need for any immediate pressure from the Pattern needed to make her behave the way she did. That doesn't mean ta'veren had no role to play. Rand is so strongly ta'veren that we can be sure that any number of events around him have a long incubation time. Look at the great web of events that placed him in Two Rivers, and brought Moiraine to him at the right moment. Egwene's very placement as Amyrlin Seat, points to ta'veren involvement. As Moiraine speculated in EotW, Egwene and Nynaeve are very much part of the great web the Pattern was weaving around the three ta'veren (as was Moiraine herself). We even saw evidence of this in tGH, when Egwene and co. felt a tug from Rand when he was in danger. I have no doubt that ta'veren was involved in the Hall at Salidar accepting the highly controversial choice of putting an Accepted on the Amyrlin Seat. Which is why Egwene seems to realize that it is significant that when it came to the Dragon meeting the Amyrlin, the Pattern placed her there. Rand was there for a reason. Egwene was there for a reason. A big part of why the Pattern wanted her there is almost certainly her ability to stand up to Rand and speak her mind. We've been told time and again that each of them has the special ability to irritate the other. Its a relationship of cooperation through constant conflict. They can work together and work against each other, like saidin and saidar.

 

What I'm saying is... the Pattern didn't need to make Egwene do what it wanted. Instead, it already worked really hard to place her as Amyrlin, and build her relationship with Rand so that it could reasonably compute how this meeting, and Merrilor, would go. It isn't so much that Egwene is immune to Rand's ta'veren nature. Its more that she's so firmly affected by it, the Pattern doesn't have to jangle her mind like it did Tuon's to carry on with its great web. Same with Nynaeve, same with Elayne.

 

The fate of the Asha'man:

Its fairly obvious that one of the great thematic aspects of the series has been the separation of the male and female Aes Sedai. It began over how to Seal the DO, but it was cemented by the Dark One's taint. The taint is gone, and it is time for the fracture to be healed. There is absolutely no doubt about the unification of the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai. Rand will support it (he already calls himself Rand Sedai), but it will ultimately be up to Egwene and Logain. And that is a relationship full of foreshadowing. The first time Egwene sees Logain, she asks if he had to have been stilled, and couldn't they figure out another way? Then, Egwene's mentor helps Logain escape, her best friend Heals his stilling, and she herself releases him to go to the Black Tower. Whatever ends up happening with Logain's band in the BT, whatever heroism they show in defying Taim, in a small way they owe it to Egwene's decision to release Logain, risking her position and life in doing so. Will Logain not remember that? We'll have to see.

 

And then there's Egwene's vision in TAR itself, showing the rose window of the Hall of the Tower bearing the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. She took it to hint at Tar Valon ruled by Amyrlin and Dragon side by side. More likely, it indicates Great Arvalon being the abode of men and women. The Tower already has a lot of empty space. And there's the foundations of Elaida's mad palace too, if they need more space. Would be a delicious irony if the palace of Elaida's megalomania is instead used to welcome back the male Aes Sedai to the fold.

 

And lastly, of course, there's the enormous boost in ability mixed circles give. You can bet any number of Aes Sedai will eagerly toss custom and tradition and 3000 years of prejudice aside to embrace that. And to help things along, a majority of the new batch of Aes Sedai have lived life among family members, including men, and are old enough to escape Tower indoctrination. The seeds for a swift change in the WT's attitudes were set long ago... by Egwene, again. You can bet that as more and more Asha'man and Aes Sedai bond each other, as they work in mixed circles to defeat the Shadow, it will become more and more likely that they will forget the prejudices of the past. Not completely, and not entirely smoothly, but the seeds are all there. We've seen Reds fall in love with men who forcibly bonded them. The reason? The Tower's women usually never married to protect themselves from the inevitable sorrow of losing their husbands much before they themselves grow old. That will no longer be an issue, now, and that should open the floodgates for Aes Sedai to start considering marriage again. That the Amyrlin, and two of the other most powerful Aes Sedai will also marry, as will some of the legends from the previous generation (Moiraine, Siuan)... this will also help change attitudes.

 

All said, the seeds have been planted for the Logain Sedais, the Jahar Sedais and the Damer Sedais of the world to take their rightful place. And in a way, that rejoining of the Aes Sedai, fractured by the Dark Ones evil, will itself serve as a Memory of Light...

[Ian Ohlander]

I think that is a valid assessment, fionwe, regarding Egwene and Rand's taveren nature. And I think that it is important that Egwene and Rand are both in their positions, though I wouldn't say they are equals, the analogy of the Pope and (a flawed) Jesus being the example that springs to mind. But I definitely think there are some real changes that will be coming down the pike, as you mention.

[fionwe1987]

I think that is a valid assessment, fionwe, regarding Egwene and Rand's taveren nature. And I think that it is important that Egwene and Rand are both in their positions, though I wouldn't say they are equals, the analogy of the Pope and (a flawed) Jesus being the example that springs to mind. But I definitely think there are some real changes that will be coming down the pike, as you mention.

I don't know about them not being equal. I'm not saying in reader affection, nor strength in the Power and abilities and things like that. I'm talking about the thematic structure of WoT. They've both been put through extremely parallel experiences. Rand took to the world stage a lot earlier, of course, whereas Egwene was focussed on her single floortile. But that's not the case now. And the entire language about them is "equal but opposite/together but apart". Its worth noting that Egwene is, in the end, the successor to the same title Lews Therin held. And Lews Therin had no prophesies about him facing the DO. Nothing like the KC, at least.

[MasterAblar]

The fate of the Asha'man:

Its fairly obvious that one of the great thematic aspects of the series has been the separation of the male and female Aes Sedai. It began over how to Seal the DO, but it was cemented by the Dark One's taint. The taint is gone, and it is time for the fracture to be healed. There is absolutely no doubt about the unification of the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai. Rand will support it (he already calls himself Rand Sedai), but it will ultimately be up to Egwene and Logain. And that is a relationship full of foreshadowing. The first time Egwene sees Logain, she asks if he had to have been stilled, and couldn't they figure out another way? Then, Egwene's mentor helps Logain escape, her best friend Heals his stilling, and she herself releases him to go to the Black Tower. Whatever ends up happening with Logain's band in the BT, whatever heroism they show in defying Taim, in a small way they owe it to Egwene's decision to release Logain, risking her position and life in doing so. Will Logain not remember that? We'll have to see.

 

I'm sure Logain appreciates Egwene. But that doesn't mean he's going to decide the fate of the BT based solely on that. Nor does Egwene have the power to change something so drastically on her own. There's a lot of problems between the Ashaman and the Aes Sedai, and they aren't going to go away overnight.

 

And then there's Egwene's vision in TAR itself, showing the rose window of the Hall of the Tower bearing the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. She took it to hint at Tar Valon ruled by Amyrlin and Dragon side by side. More likely, it indicates Great Arvalon being the abode of men and women. The Tower already has a lot of empty space. And there's the foundations of Elaida's mad palace too, if they need more space. Would be a delicious irony if the palace of Elaida's megalomania is instead used to welcome back the male Aes Sedai to the fold.

 

Not side by side. One under the other. The Fang under the Flame. Which is quite simply not the logical way to descibe the Aes Sedai symbol. The logical way to describe it is the Fang and Flame united in a circle.

 

And lastly, of course, there's the enormous boost in ability mixed circles give. You can bet any number of Aes Sedai will eagerly toss custom and tradition and 3000 years of prejudice aside to embrace that. And to help things along, a majority of the new batch of Aes Sedai have lived life among family members, including men, and are old enough to escape Tower indoctrination. The seeds for a swift change in the WT's attitudes were set long ago... by Egwene, again. You can bet that as more and more Asha'man and Aes Sedai bond each other, as they work in mixed circles to defeat the Shadow, it will become more and more likely that they will forget the prejudices of the past. Not completely, and not entirely smoothly, but the seeds are all there.

 

I think you understimate the Aes Sedai love of custom and tradition, not to mention their belief that they're above male channellers. All channellers really. And while those that join the WT after the taint was cleansed will not be as extreme, those that will really help things along are those that were born after the taint was cleansed, and even more so those that were born after the prejudice against male channellers ceased to exist. The Asha'man will never stand for anything less than equality and respect. And you notice in Androl's PoV how attached they are to the BT. It is a dream where male channellers could go, where they did not need to fear. The WT is exactly the opposite of that at the moment, and like I said that's not going to change overnight. And I doubt they'll give up being Asha'man to be Aes Sedai. Why live in the past? The BT and the Asha'man are full of promise with nothing barring their way. While they will undoubtebly grow closer to the Aes Sedai over time, they'll never be the same, simply because just like saidin and saidar, they are equal but different.

 

We've seen Reds fall in love with men who forcibly bonded them.

 

What reds?

 

The reason? The Tower's women usually never married to protect themselves from the inevitable sorrow of losing their husbands much before they themselves grow old. That will no longer be an issue, now, and that should open the floodgates for Aes Sedai to start considering marriage again. That the Amyrlin, and two of the other most powerful Aes Sedai will also marry, as will some of the legends from the previous generation (Moiraine, Siuan)... this will also help change attitudes.

 

I agree, it will help to change attitudes. In fact the individual Aes Sedai and Asha'man growing closer will undoubtebly be one of the the main causes of the rapprochement between the two groups.

 

All said, the seeds have been planted for the Logain Sedais, the Jahar Sedais and the Damer Sedais of the world to take their rightful place. And in a way, that rejoining of the Aes Sedai, fractured by the Dark Ones evil, will itself serve as a Memory of Light...

 

The seeds have been planted, but the flowers won't bloom immediately. There's too many issues to be worked out before that happens. Too much prejudice to be forgotten. Too much hate and fear to be laid to rest. History isn't forgotten so easely nor can it simply be reversed. The BT gave them Asha'man purpose and they won't forget that. I don't believe for one second that Logain, Jahar, and Damer will ever hold the title of Sedai in their name. Equal but different. Together but apart. Eventually they'll start working together again. But their title will always be Asha'man, and they'll make certain it's considered equal to the title of Aes Sedai

[fionwe1987]

I'm sure Logain appreciates Egwene. But that doesn't mean he's going to decide the fate of the BT based solely on that. Nor does Egwene have the power to change something so drastically on her own. There's a lot of problems between the Ashaman and the Aes Sedai, and they aren't going to go away overnight.

You must show me where I said Egwene's act of releasing Logain will obliterate all problems and make the AS and the AM sing kumbahya. I'd be interested to read that fantasy version of what I said.

 

Meanwhile, what I'm really saying is that rapprochement between the leader of the Aes Sedai and the future leader of the Asha'man is a great big help towards alliance and eventual unification. Not unlike the personal bonds between Egwene and the Wise Ones and Elayne and the Sea Folk helped with the alliance that was formed, which is designed to unify too.

Not side by side. One under the other. The Fang under the Flame. Which is quite simply not the logical way to descibe the Aes Sedai symbol. The logical way to describe it is the Fang and Flame united in a circle.

Yes. But things are not always logically described in these last books. Egwene saw that and immediately her mind lept to Amyrlin and Dragon ruling Tar Valon side by side. Now either Egwene sucks at reading visual metaphors (a strange weakness in a Dreamer if so), or Brandon wrote a sloppy description.

 

You'll also notice that if you have the Aes Sedai symbol facing the outside (the city) someone looking at the hall could conceivable describe it as the fand below the flame. I much prefer your description, but we have to work with what we get.

I think you understimate the Aes Sedai love of custom and tradition, not to mention their belief that they're above male channellers. All channellers really.

And this is exactly what you would have said if I told you Egwene would make an alliance of equals between the White Tower and the WO and the SF. And you'd have been right, but wrong to forget that it is Egwene who leads the Aes Sedai, and she has shown a propensity to toss aside Aes Sedai custom, tradition and even law in the face of what is best for the Last Battle. One would imagine such a habit would be building towards something more climactic- the reversal of one of the White Tower's most ancient aspects perhaps? And you have to wonder what purpose Egwene's choice of Silviana as Keeper will serve. Its a gun that hasn't been fired yet, and their last conversation on male channelers had a very unfinished air to it...

And while those that join the WT after the taint was cleansed will not be as extreme, those that will really help things along are those that were born after the taint was cleansed, and even more so those that were born after the prejudice against male channellers ceased to exist.

Yes. The complete normalcy in relations between male and female Aes Sedai will, shockingly, take some time. No one is suggesting otherwise.

The Asha'man will never stand for anything less than equality and respect.

And they can get it, in law. Its the changes in attitude that will take a few generations, though not as much as it would have once they've fought together in the LB, perhaps.

And you notice in Androl's PoV how attached they are to the BT. It is a dream where male channellers could go, where they did not need to fear.

Yes, and that was needed when male channelers were feared, and did have a lot to fear. You'll notice that it is now Tower policy not to hunt them down. Which means their need for a safe place just went away.

The WT is exactly the opposite of that at the moment,

As in, its not a place where they need to go out of fear of persecution? Definitely not.

and like I said that's not going to change overnight.

It doesn't have to.

And I doubt they'll give up being Asha'man to be Aes Sedai. Why live in the past?

Because their present is soon to be tainted with the shadow of great evil. Their founding ground is going to be rent in fire and blood. Their current structure and organization has a lot of parallels to the Nazi SS. And as it stands today, their Black Tower is built as an anti-White Tower, not as a thing of its own with its own purpose and meaning. And lastly, of course, their founder is calling himself an Aes Sedai now.

The BT and the Asha'man are full of promise with nothing barring their way.

Prophesy is. Their founding amidst fear and mistrust is. Their mistaken upbringing as weapons is. The Asha'man were built as suicide troops by Rand. As he acknowledged in ToM, he was wrong to do that. As it is, their nebulous traditions are all rooted in that mistaken belief. Noble and wonderful though their intended sacrifice was, it doesn't make for a very strong foundation on which to build an organization for times of reconstruction.

While they will undoubtebly grow closer to the Aes Sedai over time, they'll never be the same, simply because just like saidin and saidar, they are equal but different.

Saidin and saidar, I'll remind you, are but halves of the One Power. And male and female Aes Sedai were but facets of the same organization. I fail to see why a fracture caused by the Dark One will live on after his defeat. When the central idea of the series is that division on the basis of gender is wrong, how can it end with channelers divided on solely that basis?

 

What reds?

With Rand.

I agree, it will help to change attitudes. In fact the individual Aes Sedai and Asha'man growing closer will undoubtebly be one of the the main causes of the rapprochement between the two groups.

Precisely. The very Aes Sedai you think too wedded to tradition have tossed it aside to a great extent. As more such partnerships form in the LB, the uselessness of those traditions will be readily obvious to everyone. What basis would the traditionalists in the Hall have to argue against this when Egwene brings it up? They'll certainly not like it, but they're disliked lots of Egwene's schemes before.

The seeds have been planted, but the flowers won't bloom immediately.

We have an entire book, and the end of an Age approaching, remember?

There's too many issues to be worked out before that happens.

Why does unity have to happen after the issues are ironed out? Did Elayne wait before Andorans and Cairheinin felt like fellow countrymen before uniting the Nations? No. She gave leaders from each place a stake in the other. Egwene and Logain will do much the same.

Too much prejudice to be forgotten. Too much hate and fear to be laid to rest.

They've been forgotten and laid to rest already multiple times!

History isn't forgotten so easely nor can it simply be reversed. The BT gave them Asha'man purpose and they won't forget that.

The wrong purpose, as Rand said. His messenger is even now headed to the BT to inform the loyal Asha'man of that. That initial purpose made the BT a fertile breeding ground for resentment and evil. As we know from Prophesy, the symbol of that purpose will be destroyed.

I don't believe for one second that Logain, Jahar, and Damer will ever hold the title of Sedai in their name. Equal but different. Together but apart. Eventually they'll start working together again. But their title will always be Asha'man, and they'll make certain it's considered equal to the title of Aes Sedai

Nope. We already have Rand Sedai. Its not long before we'll have more male Aes Sedai. Moghedien already considers them as such. And "equal but different", or in modern terms, "men are from mars and women are from venus" was the trait of Third Age society. A result of the Dark One's touch. That ancient wrong will be righted.

 

But I can already see a circular argument on this coming. So lets end it this way: I contend that by the end of aMoL, there will be male Aes Sedai again. It will not be seamless, it will not be perfect. But that unity will have been achieved. The guardians will give balance to the servants, ending 3000 years of the Dark One's touch on channeler society

 

You claim they won't merge. They'll remain separate.

 

We'll just wait till January 8th and see.

[MasterAblar]

But I can already see a circular argument on this coming. So lets end it this way: I contend that by the end of aMoL, there will be male Aes Sedai again. It will not be seamless, it will not be perfect. But that unity will have been achieved. The guardians will give balance to the servants, ending 3000 years of the Dark One's touch on channeler society

 

You claim they won't merge. They'll remain separate.

 

We'll just wait till January 8th and see.

 

Yeah, it's pretty clear we won't agree. No problem. That said I will say this. I'm not saying they won't merge. I'm just saying they won't merge completely. They'll be two parts of a whole.

 

And I hope we'll find out January 8th. RJ didn't mean to tie everything up I believe. But perhaps there will still be hints as too what will happen.

[fionwe1987]

But I can already see a circular argument on this coming. So lets end it this way: I contend that by the end of aMoL, there will be male Aes Sedai again. It will not be seamless, it will not be perfect. But that unity will have been achieved. The guardians will give balance to the servants, ending 3000 years of the Dark One's touch on channeler society

 

You claim they won't merge. They'll remain separate.

 

We'll just wait till January 8th and see.

 

Yeah, it's pretty clear we won't agree. No problem. That said I will say this. I'm not saying they won't merge. I'm just saying they won't merge completely. They'll be two parts of a whole.

Can you specify what you mean here? Do you mean the Black Tower will continue, but be allied to the White? Or that the Asha'man will become Aes Sedai, but have separate Ajahs and a separate equivalent of the Hall and the Amyrlin?

And I hope we'll find out January 8th. RJ didn't mean to tie everything up I believe. But perhaps there will still be hints as too what will happen.

This is hardly one of them.

[Kestrel]

We'll just wait till January 8th and see.

And I hope we'll find out January 8th. RJ didn't mean to tie everything up I believe. But perhaps there will still be hints as too what will happen.

Yessss. January 8th. It's my Birrrthhhday Pressent, my Precioussss. It comessss to me on my birrrthhhdayyy, my Preciousss.

 

(Seriously!)

[TootThatHorn]

We'll just wait till January 8th and see.

And I hope we'll find out January 8th. RJ didn't mean to tie everything up I believe. But perhaps there will still be hints as too what will happen.

Yessss. January 8th. It's my Birrrthhhday Pressent, my Precioussss. It comessss to me on my birrrthhhdayyy, my Preciousss.

 

(Seriously!)

 

Well they better release chapter 2 today, cause this is my birthday today lol