Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[Barid Bel Medar]

Because, you know, he doesn't have a plan, and tomorrow confrontation will carry on seamlessly if what Egwene assumed turns out to be true. Otherwise, Egwene will make a speech, Rand will correct her assumption, Egwene will think she has no reason to oppose him, then Rand will say he does indeed have no plan. Then Egwene will oppose him all over again.

 

Not if BBM is right and Rand is just lying to them all about going to confront the DO right away.

 

 

 

While I think it is true, it makes sense of Egwene's actions.

 

The blade cuts both ways here. We can't assume she knows what Rand's mind is. She can only go on what has been said.

 

fionwe1982 is correct in assessing Egwene's actions. It makes perfect sense from her PoV, and she can't be expected to believe otherwise.

 

Until Rand proves otherwise though, my thoughts are not truth (unfortunately ) Aside from what I believe are hints, essentially we know the same thing as we did of ToM Egwene - which has had light shed on it.

 

Edit: @ Logain: Very true, she doesn't know that. But I think the point here is that Rand still doesn't have a plan. Thus, the thought continues: Rand has no plan yet, but will break seals anyway = protracted war.

 

Of course, that is where my theory comes in, but it is as yet unconfirmed, so fionwe has the right of Egwene's thoughts on the matter.

[Amandera]

And the reason Egwene doesn't mention Rand's lack of a plan is simple. She can forgive that he doesn't have the answers. But if she thought he had a plan, exactly why would she say, "We have an extended war ahead of us."? Why would there be an extended war if Rand (in Egwene's mind) has a plan to seal the DO?

 

Because, to put it bluntly, she doesn't realize that Rand means to go die at Shayol Ghul, like, tomorrow. She thinks he means to fight in the Last Battle.

I agree. At least that's what BS thinks.

 

She should realize it though. It fits perfectly with Rand's character to go right into the heat of the battle.

[thisguy]

That is true - Master Ablar's point - she's more concerned with the breaking of the seals than how to seal the Bore.

[MasterAblar]

Edit: @ Logain: Very true, she doesn't know that. But I think the point here is that Rand still doesn't have a plan. Thus, the thought continues: Rand has no plan yet, but will break seals anyway = protracted war.

 

Right, but what is the reason, from Egwene's PoV, for the protracted war with the DO free? That Rand would break the seals without a plan? Or that he would break the seals but not put his plan into action right away?

 

Fionwe believes the first (I think, if not please correct me), but to me it's the second because there's no hint whatsoever towards the first in the books. Egwene never talks about Rand not having a plan. That's why it's very hard for me to believe that is her reason for her opposition.

[Neophyte]

Indeed, according to Chapter 1, she does think he has a plan - and she's apparently sure it is a "crackbrained" one.

[BFG]

It was who he was. He had not changed, he had not transformed. He had merely accepted.That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

In the above text there are two statements that go towards what Rand thinks, that he doesn't have all the answers, and that there's one that he keeps thinking of. Neither actually states that he doesn't have a plan, and to an extent nobody ever has all the answers, war plans only valid until first arrow and all that.I'm going to (try to) learn from Egwenes storyline in the last book - I think it's been written so that the reader assumes Rand doesn't have a plan, but that he actually does. Don't haveanything from the text to back this up, but working on the basis that Rand, Min and Cads aren't stupid. Cads heard the plan to break the seals in the last book and didn't say anything against it. Min knows that Rand is depending on her to come up with some answers before the FoM and she's asleep, (bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't use the word slumbered for somebody that's worried, definition says that it's someone sleeping especially quietly). Third Rand is no longer crazy and no longer wants the world to end. Hence, he either has a plan to deal with the DO, or there's a necessary reason for the DO to be able to touch the world for a time. He doesn't have some reckless scheme to break the seals and see what happens.

[Amandera]

Edit: @ Logain: Very true, she doesn't know that. But I think the point here is that Rand still doesn't have a plan. Thus, the thought continues: Rand has no plan yet, but will break seals anyway = protracted war.

 

Right, but what is the reason, from Egwene's PoV, for the protracted war with the DO free? That Rand would break the seals without a plan? Or that he would break the seals but not put his plan into action right away?

 

Fionwe believes the first (I think, if not please correct me), but to me it's the second because there's no hint whatsoever towards the first in the books. Egwene never talks about Rand not having a plan. That's why it's very hard for me to believe that is her reason for her opposition.

A third alternative: Aes Sedai almost always think they know the answer to everything better than everybody else. She is simply trying to undermine Rand because she wants to take charge?

 

It doesn't really fit with Egwene's personality to gamble everything like that but it's the best rationalization I can come up with for what is obviously a huge retcon. Opposition for opposition's sake. Fits with Aes Sedai mentality.

[herid]

I am one of those who thinks Laman's sword will end up with Gawyn. Also, a post I made on TL:

 

Wait for the Light

Regarding your "Wait for the light" post on TL. Lots of interesting stuff to digest but let me just ask about one thing.

You quote the TOM prophecy

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

In that post you suggest that tomorrow Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, his blood is spilled there and this brings the 3 days darkness. This is out of sequence with the above prophecy if we assume your other theory that the Broken Wolf is Rand (or have you changed your mind on that one?). According to the prophecy first the Broken Wolf dies, and then the DO faces the Broken Champion, spills his blood and brings the darkness.

 

You've hit on the main reason why I have gotten bogged down in my new Blood on the Rocks FAQ page: chronology. For this one, there are a few possible explanations, most of them involving interpreting names differently. I should probably address it on the Theoryland thread, though.

 

ok, thanks. Another small point. If I understand your theory correctly you believe that shit will seriously hit the fan (Rand dying, the darkness coming) by next noon. Whatever happens I don't believe things will move quite that quickly. That's mostly based on Mat's POV from chapter 11. Grady promised Mat that he will open a gateway for him every day at noon (TOM, Ch 53). From chapter 1 we learn that Grady is at FOM with Perrin. So I think Mat will show up at FOM at noon the next day together with Moiraine. I think it's pretty clear that by Chapter 11 (which has to happen some time after that ) Rand is still alive. Mat doesn't think of him as dead. He just thinks that Rand went up to fight the Last Battle. Although its curious that the colors don't show up when he thinks of him.

I think Mat would have known if Rand died. Also, if the darkness or even a solar eclipse came before Chapter 11 the people in Ebu Dar (and Mat) surely would have noticed. Yet Mat chats up the locals about the weather and nothing of the sort is mentioned. They are not even sure the Last battle has started.

Basically, I don't think anything cataclysmic has happened yet by chapter 11. It's certainly interesting though what did happen in chapters 2-10. I think I recall BS mentioning somewhere that the Black Tower will be sorted out early in aMoL so perhaps that's it.

[The Fisher King]

RockyTop on page 13 was right about one thing. The books DO read as more "juvenile" now...but not for the reasons he seemed to be implying ...

 

 

Fish

[thisguy]

Am I the only one who got out of this that Rand is looking for a plan that's more than just sealing the Bore?

[MasterAblar]

Indeed, according to Chapter 1, she does think he has a plan - and she's apparently sure it is a "crackbrained" one.

 

Right.

 

I will say this. Either way, Egwene is acting perfectly reasonably. She's acting on what she knows, and she can't be faulted for that whether she turns out to be right or not. This may seem like nothing, but it takes away all the pointless "Egwene's an idiot, she's doing everything wrong" and "Egwene's a genius, all hail Egwene" crap we've had to deal with, which personally I am very glad for.

[MasterAblar]

Am I the only one who got out of this that Rand is looking for a plan that's more than just sealing the Bore?

 

I saw it, but I've no idea what he's going to do so...*shrug*

[thisguy]

Am I the only one who got out of this that Rand is looking for a plan that's more than just sealing the Bore?

 

I saw it, but I've no idea what he's going to do so...*shrug*

Oh yeah, me neither. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't alone here.

 

I know we've only been given bits and pieces of what's to come, but it kinda bothers me that Fain is never mentioned by anybody.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Am I the only one who got out of this that Rand is looking for a plan that's more than just sealing the Bore?

 

I saw it, but I've no idea what he's going to do so...*shrug*

 

Yeah, I saw it, but disregarded it. I refer Rand to Ishamael's comment in tGS about killing the DO.

 

(to be fair, it could be permanently disconnecting the DO from the Pattern, not killing him, but my post sounds a lot better with just the above)

 

Re: Fain: I don't mention it because I refuse to. The idea is there, just like the cleansing. But I say it is a theme already been used at said Cleansing.

 

I loathe the idea of Fain doing anything other than acting as the buffer between DO and OP.

[78WARLOCK]

 

 

Also, what were you guys really expecting from BS? He was never going to be able to write the end of this story like RJ. Whoever was picked would have been in a no win situation. I'm just glad we're getting the end of the story.

I agree with that completely. No matter who wrote these books....it was'nt RJ and it would be an uphill battle for them also.

[fionwe1987]

From what I see Rand intends to face the DO even without a concrete plan. He intends to do whatever he can think of at that moment to defeat the DO right after he breaks the seals and not break the seals and then sit down to think what comes next.

So... a well thought out plan failed miserably. So Rand intends to instead use a plan formulated in the heat of the moment? If so, why did he tell Min he needs her help figuring this out? Is she supposed to go to SG with him, carrying Herid Fel's books, and yell out the answer at the crucial minute? This makes no sense.

Come on, Fionwe. If there's any rule to prophecies in fantasy it's that whenever people think they understand the prophecy you can be sure that whatever they think is wrong. The wound in his side is the biggest one that's true, but that doesn't mean that it'll be the only one.

Seriously? That's your argument here? Because interpretation of the Karaethon Cycle have led to the right conclusions in the past. Especially with Rand's plan for the Aiel, and leaving the Stone of Tear behind.

As I said the link was only established in VOG so anything that happened before wouldn't affect anything either way.

I'll adress this below.

 

Ok wrong verb. She did what Rand needed not what Rand wanted. And others said there was the pattened dizzyness after the ta'veren effect released her from its grip.

Nope. The dizziness is very similar to how Tuon reacted after defying his ta'veren pull.

That's what Aes Sedai have told us, not what is necessarily the truth.

It is when you consider RJ's out of book statements about ta'veren and the Heroes.

There is a clear corelation between Rand's state and the effect he had on the Pattern.

Nope. There's a relation between Rand's state and how it affects the land. Since he's one with the land.

When he was at his darkest there were times when only bad things happened and no good. In TGS but someone who traveled with him noticed exactly that. She said that there should be something good to balance the bad that happened around Rand and was surprised there wasn't anything good happening.

Because the land was being corrupted by the corruption in Rand.

In that same vein is Rand threatening Cadsuane to wish her dead. She says that it was impossible, but was it really? Ta'veren is the rarest ability there is in the world, how much scientific study could there be on them. And how would anyone test those theories?

Seriously? You're asking this after knowing that in the AoL, they had machines that could read all possible futures for your thread?

No, the world will actually pay the price for each day Rand not breaking the seals and facing the DO. But the price might be worth it if it increases the odds of Rand's victory by a single percent.

If your idea of Rand's confrontation is true, then any scenario where Rand faces the DO with an actual plan is going to be 100% more effective than that.

I don't think Rand was able to feel earthquakes before VOG or sense the DO as he did in Maradon. Rand changed during VOG, he truly became the Dragon Reborn as that name is meant. That's what I mean. He wouldn't have been able to will those apples to blossom again before VOG.

That is it. After VoG, Rand knew he was one with the land. I suspect he can even manipulate it now. But he was always one with the Land. His lack of knowledge of the fact didn't change that.

[MasterAblar]

Edit: @ Logain: Very true, she doesn't know that. But I think the point here is that Rand still doesn't have a plan. Thus, the thought continues: Rand has no plan yet, but will break seals anyway = protracted war.

 

Right, but what is the reason, from Egwene's PoV, for the protracted war with the DO free? That Rand would break the seals without a plan? Or that he would break the seals but not put his plan into action right away?

 

Fionwe believes the first (I think, if not please correct me), but to me it's the second because there's no hint whatsoever towards the first in the books. Egwene never talks about Rand not having a plan. That's why it's very hard for me to believe that is her reason for her opposition.

A third alternative: Aes Sedai almost always think they know the answer to everything better than everybody else. She is simply trying to undermine Rand because she wants to take charge?

 

It doesn't really fit with Egwene's personality to gamble everything like that but it's the best rationalization I can come up with for what is obviously a huge retcon. Opposition for opposition's sake. Fits with Aes Sedai mentality.

 

Nah, the first chapter really fixed the problems I had with Egwene from ToM. And even in ToM, she wasn't opposing just for opposition's sake, just because she made a huge assumption: that the seals did not need to be broken. That's why when I read this from Egwene in aMoL:

 

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t break the seals

 

my reaction was basically: "Wait what!! Ah, screw it, whatever, I'll take it."

[thisguy]

Also, what were you guys really expecting from BS? He was never going to be able to write the end of this story like RJ. Whoever was picked would have been in a no win situation. I'm just glad we're getting the end of the story.

I agree with that completely. No matter who wrote these books....it was'nt RJ and it would be an uphill battle for them also.

 

 

 

Am I the only one who got out of this that Rand is looking for a plan that's more than just sealing the Bore?

 

I saw it, but I've no idea what he's going to do so...*shrug*

 

Yeah, I saw it, but disregarded it. I refer Rand to Ishamael's comment in tGS about killing the DO.

 

(to be fair, it could be permanently disconnecting the DO from the Pattern, not killing him, but my post sounds a lot better with just the above)

 

I agree with both of these posts.

 

 

I can't help thinking that Moridin/Ish is going to help Rand do something. He's a logical person - to a fault. His biggest issue with the whole WoT is that it has to be repeated over and over. If Rand were able to change that somehow, I think Ish would fall in line. Since they're sharing emotions and physical problems now, I think he's probably thinking about the end as well and what else could be.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, I saw it, but disregarded it. I refer Rand to Ishamael's comment in tGS about killing the DO.

 

I love that comment from Ishamael. I can just imagine his disgusted expression that Rand would come up with such a ignorant idea. After all he's a philosopher.

 

Re: Fain: I don't mention it because I refuse to. The idea is there, just like the cleansing. But I say it is a theme already been used at said Cleansing.

 

I loathe the idea of Fain doing anything other than acting as the buffer between DO and OP.

 

Same here. I want a good ending to Fain, but definitely not that.

[fionwe1987]

She doesn't think he has no plan, she thinks his plan is the wrong one. Not once, whether in ToM, or in the first chapter of aMoL, does Egwene mention the resealing of the bore. Ever. All she talks, and thinks, about, is the breaking of the seals, either that they shouldn't be broken at all, or that they need to be broken at the right moment.

Because the breaking of the Seals is something she can control, and it is her duty to control. She does mention resealing in ToM, though confusingly, she says Rand should be able to do it without breaking the Seals.

Should we just disregard anything from ToM on this subject then? And that's a serious question.

I'm very tempted to say yes. Neither Rand nor Egwene are consistent on this issue.

Not if BBM is right and Rand is just lying to them all about going to confront the DO right away.

Essentially there is no argument about to Seals to come. I'm not so sure that's correct. Its going to be a lot more reasonable that ToM led us to believe. But I doubt its going to be no argument at all.

 

That's precisely what I think she's worried about, but to me it's because she believes Rand means to stick around during the Last Battle rather than face the DO immediately.

You do this elsewhere too. Why is Rand facing the DO different from the Last Battle? They're exactly the same thing!

 

"Yet" begin the key word in that sentence. He didn't tell he wouldn't have the answers then, only that he doesn't have them now. Indeed the "yet" implies that he means to get those answers. What do you think she believes the reason for that month is?

Honestly, I find it suspicious she never thought about it. I really don't think, in the author's mind, she has any thoughts on it. It seems very obvios to me that the one month thing was something Brandon invented to allow for the events of ToM. In the original, their meeting in Tar Valon would have been followed by the Merrilor meeting much sooner.

Because, to put it bluntly, she doesn't realize that Rand means to go die at Shayol Ghul, like, tomorrow. She thinks he means to fight in the Last Battle.

Those are exactly the same thing!

[Amandera]

Edit: @ Logain: Very true, she doesn't know that. But I think the point here is that Rand still doesn't have a plan. Thus, the thought continues: Rand has no plan yet, but will break seals anyway = protracted war.

 

Right, but what is the reason, from Egwene's PoV, for the protracted war with the DO free? That Rand would break the seals without a plan? Or that he would break the seals but not put his plan into action right away?

 

Fionwe believes the first (I think, if not please correct me), but to me it's the second because there's no hint whatsoever towards the first in the books. Egwene never talks about Rand not having a plan. That's why it's very hard for me to believe that is her reason for her opposition.

A third alternative: Aes Sedai almost always think they know the answer to everything better than everybody else. She is simply trying to undermine Rand because she wants to take charge?

 

It doesn't really fit with Egwene's personality to gamble everything like that but it's the best rationalization I can come up with for what is obviously a huge retcon. Opposition for opposition's sake. Fits with Aes Sedai mentality.

 

Nah, the first chapter really fixed the problems I had with Egwene from ToM. And even in ToM, she wasn't opposing just for opposition's sake, just because she made a huge assumption: that the seals did not need to be broken. That's why when I read this from Egwene in aMoL:

 

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t break the seals

 

my reaction was basically: "Wait what!! Ah, screw it, whatever, I'll take it."

Like I said it was an attempt at rationalization a retcon that fits with general Aes Sedai mentality. My reaction was exactly the same as you. It usually is in works of fiction actually. There is always things I don't like in movies and books, but I don't really care so long as I enjoy the overall work.

[thisguy]

Yeah, I saw it, but disregarded it. I refer Rand to Ishamael's comment in tGS about killing the DO.

 

I love that comment from Ishamael. I can just imagine his disgusted expression that Rand would come up with such a ignorant idea. After all he's a philosopher.

 

Re: Fain: I don't mention it because I refuse to. The idea is there, just like the cleansing. But I say it is a theme already been used at said Cleansing.

 

I loathe the idea of Fain doing anything other than acting as the buffer between DO and OP.

 

Same here. I want a good ending to Fain, but definitely not that.

 

We know two things about Fain for sure:

 

He can track Rand anywhere as long as Rand hasn't assumed the void;

He wants to kill Rand himself.

 

I can totally see him jumping in between the DO and Rand at the right moment and being the buffer needed. BUT, didn't BS say something about not wanting Fain to have a Gollum Gollum ending?

[Suttree]

I will say this. Either way, Egwene is acting perfectly reasonably. She's acting on what she knows, and she can't be faulted for that whether she turns out to be right or not. This may seem like nothing, but it takes away all the pointless "Egwene's an idiot, she's doing everything wrong" and "Egwene's a genius, all hail Egwene" crap we've had to deal with, which personally I am very glad for.

 

Amen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not if BBM is right and Rand is just lying to them all about going to confront the DO right away.

Essentially there is no argument about to Seals to come. I'm not so sure that's correct. Its going to be a lot more reasonable that ToM led us to believe. But I doubt its going to be no argument at all.

 

That wasn't what I intended. I think the issue will be different though. All I was saying is that Rand doesn't intend to break the seals randomly and never did.

 

I expect that it will be about how to proceed with the strike itself (after they have come up with a plan).

 

Rand will want to keep it short and sweet. Get to Shayol Ghul, break the seals, defeat the DO and go home.

 

Egwene likely thinks that this is reckless, that their armies should be given time to consolidate and eliminate or reduce the Shadowspawn threat first, make sure it is as safe as possible before the DO is temporarily released.

 

Both sides have merit.

 

Essentially, the DO cannot wait, his armies are too powerful, there is no way the Light can win that war. They need to cut the serpents head, so to speak, and the rest of it will fall soon after.

 

However, the short period of the DO's influence will mean a harder time for the Light. Reducing losses is a noble cause.

 

I expect the solution needs to be a mixture of the two.

 

They cannot wait too long, the DO needs defeating ASAP, the longer they wait, the more people die.

However, they can't rush off too quickly either. Let them get set up to reduce the damage a bit.

[herid]

 

 

I can totally see him jumping in between the DO and Rand at the right moment and being the buffer needed. BUT, didn't BS say something about not wanting Fain to have a Gollum Gollum ending?

It doesn't have to happen by Fain "jumping in" between Rand and the DO. My own pet theory is that it will happen more indirectly via the wounds in Rand's side. They are bound to open when Rand fights the DO and then Fain's essence will come in contact with the DO's essence and something interesting will happen. It would also fit nicely with all the prophecies that Rand's blood will bring the Light somehow. His blood hasn't shown any miraculous properties thus far and this is really the only way I can think of it will.