Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[he who comes with a bong]

@bongface, aye you're right about M's role. I think that Rand gets a bit of that from Perrin in this chapter. Just communicating rather than being a man alone is a help. When Perrin and Mat die then he will need Moiraine... Hope they don't die though!

 

LOL @ Bongface I have a feeling that Perrin is going to die ive always felt like that for some reason. We also need to take into account the Bond with Alanna, if she dies then bam warder rage to the extreme, it might not be as bad as a normal rage since he has 4 people that have bonded him. But it will still be there in some type of anger im sure.

 

And i think Moraines other part will be with the sealing off of the Bore. Her and Rand with Perrins help In Tar will make the new Prison out of there souls. The whoe yingyang thing thats be through out the series. As a single unit each of them are powerfull in their own ways, but men an women workign together always made more than working alone.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I doubt that Rand will suffer any more relapses, he is basically prepared (emotionally).

 

Remember this was meant to be one final book, not three. There is a lot of filler in these books, and I doubt that RJ planned to have VoG like halfway through, then a few chapters later repeat the whole process again. It has been a plot done over 11 other books. He has gone crazy and recovered. It has been used.

 

Of course, there are other ways the Dragon can be compromised. Like the DO or Moridin possessing Rand, or using the TP/ 13x13 him. Just it wont be Rand having a crisis, it would be extremely pointless.

[he who comes with a bong]

I doubt that Rand will suffer any more relapses, he is basically prepared (emotionally).

 

Remember this was meant to be one final book, not three. There is a lot of filler in these books, and I doubt that RJ planned to have VoG like halfway through, then a few chapters later repeat the whole process again. It has been a plot done over 11 other books. He has gone crazy and recovered. It has been used.

 

Of course, there are other ways the Dragon can be compromised. Like the DO or Moridin possessing Rand, or using the TP/ 13x13 him. Just it wont be Rand having a crisis, it would be extremely pointless.

 

I agree somewhat with what you are saying, but something in me thinks that something is going to happen and he will freak out so to say maybee not Dark Rand but something regardless. And we have to remember its Sanderson writing it so pointless might not make a difference hahahahahahahahah.

[Duskfire]

I doubt that Rand will suffer any more relapses, he is basically prepared (emotionally).

 

Remember this was meant to be one final book, not three. There is a lot of filler in these books, and I doubt that RJ planned to have VoG like halfway through, then a few chapters later repeat the whole process again. It has been a plot done over 11 other books. He has gone crazy and recovered. It has been used.

 

Of course, there are other ways the Dragon can be compromised. Like the DO or Moridin possessing Rand, or using the TP/ 13x13 him. Just it wont be Rand having a crisis, it would be extremely pointless.

 

Not neccessarily. I could see Rand having another crysis if the meeting doesnt go well. For example, Elayne decided to try and get Camelyn back, and the Seanchan attack the Whitetower so Egwene heads over there. If the little alliance has has planned in his head falls apart, and he doesnt achieve that unity, I could see a bit of a personal crysis happening.

[hjustinpace]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

[Luckers]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

 

Except that chapter one had spoilers for the prologue, and was clearly noted as such, showing awareness of that issue.

[mbuehner]

We also need to take into account the Bond with Alanna,

 

I wonder what would happen to Rand if Alanna got 13x13d? Alanna goes missing to the borderlands, and Slayer's POV with the carriages coming again. Hmm...

[hjustinpace]

No mention of the biggest ret-con of all, re: the gholam?

 

The stylistic differences between Jordan and Sanderson didn't bother me, or even stand out, at all when I read TGS and TOM. Now that I've re-read 9 of the books in the past 9 months it's jarring. The thing that stuck out to me that hasn't been mentioned (at least directly) is the difference in dialogue. Sanderson's characters tend to speak in very logical terms (this is even more evident in The Way of Kings). But people don't really talk like that (other than me, at least), and Jordan's dialogue wasn't like that. The nature of finishing someone else's work highlights Sanderson's flaws as a writer. If Jordan had finished Sanderson's work, his flaws would have been highlighted. As it is, it's easy to forget his weaknesses, including those Sanderson doesn't have.

 

I wouldn't characterize the Wheel of Time as juvenile. It's plainly written and fantasy, but that doesn't mean it's not serious literature. I have a much greater appreciation for that re-reading the books now that I am much older and (allegedly) wiser.

[hjustinpace]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

 

Except that chapter one had spoilers for the prologue, and was clearly noted as such, showing awareness of that issue.

 

What issue? That's by design. Release a $4 prologue, then shortly after release a free chapter that requires reading the prologue to fully enjoy.

[mbuehner]

Not neccessarily. I could see Rand having another crysis if the meeting doesnt go well. For example, Elayne decided to try and get Camelyn back, and the Seanchan attack the Whitetower so Egwene heads over there. If the little alliance has has planned in his head falls apart, and he doesnt achieve that unity, I could see a bit of a personal crysis happening.

 

I agree. Is there any way in hell Elayne will not drop everything to win Camelyn back? Even if its a burned out shell without a single living human? 'Space we can recover, lost time, never.' -Napoleon. I want to be the fly on the wall when Rand tries explaining that to Elayne.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

 

Except that chapter one had spoilers for the prologue, and was clearly noted as such, showing awareness of that issue.

 

I'd have said what you said Luckers but rather than 'Except' I'd have said 'especially given'. Ie, is that not the basis of the previous post?

[he who comes with a bong]

We also need to take into account the Bond with Alanna,

 

I wonder what would happen to Rand if Alanna got 13x13d? Alanna goes missing to the borderlands, and Slayer's POV with the carriages coming again. Hmm...

 

I dont think anything would really happen to him if she got turned. Maybee some type of awareness of her being made into an evil type of thing through the feeling of emotional aspects of the warderbond. Might be some type of negativity issue with Rands thought process kinda like the taint itself.But with 3 other bonds of women that love him mind body and soul i dont think her being turned would effect him in profound ways really.

[Duskfire]

The more I think about it, the more I think Demandred will turn on the DO, or at least Moridin. The reason the prologue passage was there was to show to us readers that Demandred is hesitant to use balefire purely for its destructive reasons ( as most Forsaken are I suppose) even when presented with the possibility of Nae`blis. Somehow he would have worked out the Dark Ones true goal - it couldnt be hard really, with how elevated Moridin is and his nihilistic views - and in the end will turn against the Shadow. He wont be a good guy, he is far too gone for that, but he'll do something that will help the victories of good win.

[Luckers]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

 

Except that chapter one had spoilers for the prologue, and was clearly noted as such, showing awareness of that issue.

 

I'd have said what you said Luckers but rather than 'Except' I'd have said 'especially given'. Ie, is that not the basis of the previous post?

 

Well I was assuming that the comment was inferring that the chapter one release was planned for the original october 2nd, and like the tGS release Osan was suggesting the release was done pre-emptively to boost prologue sales.

 

You may have a point though.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

So this is two substantial pieces of early-released material (prologue and chapter one) coming approximately one week apart? Even with the prologue unexpectedly early, that's a pace that seems unsustainable for a January 8th release. It will be difficult to wait having gotten this much in so short a time - I wonder at the strategy of such a rapid build up in late september... Are we still on the same timetable?

 

I assume the release of chapter 1 was timed to drive sales of the prologue. So it probably won't be a pattern.

 

Except that chapter one had spoilers for the prologue, and was clearly noted as such, showing awareness of that issue.

 

I'd have said what you said Luckers but rather than 'Except' I'd have said 'especially given'. Ie, is that not the basis of the previous post?

 

Well I was assuming that the comment was inferring that the chapter one release was planned for the original october 2nd, and like the tGS release Osan was suggesting the release was done pre-emptively to boost prologue sales.

 

You may have a point though.

 

I have a friend that didn't read the prologue and now he hasn't read the ch1 either so I've been twisting his arm to get started on it.... Maybe it's me that's driving Tor's sales :)

[Amandera]

Egwene: Rand intends to enter the Last Battle and break the seals immediately, but that is a dreadful idea. We have an extended war ahead of us. Freeing the Dark One now will strengthen the forces of the Shadow and weaken us.

Did Rand say, think, or hint at this anywhere? My inclimation was that he always intended to break the seals just moments before his strike at Shayol Ghul and remake the prison using a completely different method than LTT's. Which makes perfect sense to me. And why would they possibly want to first fight the war and then strike SG? The moment you figure out how to seal the Bore (I think Moiraine will be coming with answers from the Eelfinn), attack Shayol Ghul with all the strength you can muster and end this war. That way, even if your enemy completely wipes you out, you've won. And the enemy will know that. That's pretty bad for morale, I'd say.

 

 

Edit: by the way, if Rand does indeed plan to do this then I have to agree with Egwene that it's a crackbrained scheme.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene: Rand intends to enter the Last Battle and break the seals immediately, but that is a dreadful idea. We have an extended war ahead of us. Freeing the Dark One now will strengthen the forces of the Shadow and weaken us.

Did Rand say, think, or hint at this anywhere? My inclimation was that he always intended to break the seals just moments before his strike at Shayol Ghul and remake the prison using a completely different method than LTT's. Which makes perfect sense to me. And why would they possibly want to first fight the war and then strike SG? The moment you figure out how to seal the Bore (I think Moiraine will be coming with answers from the Eelfinn), attack Shayol Ghul with all the strength you can muster and end this war. That way, even if your enemy completely wipes you out, you've won. And the enemy will know that. That's pretty bad for morale, I'd say.

 

 

Edit: by the way, if Rand does indeed plan to do this then I have to agree with Egwene that it's a crackbrained scheme.

 

Egwene doesn't know that Rand intends to go to Shayol Ghul right after breaking them. She probably thinks Rand is going to be around for the whole war which is not Rand's intention.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene: Rand intends to enter the Last Battle and break the seals immediately, but that is a dreadful idea. We have an extended war ahead of us. Freeing the Dark One now will strengthen the forces of the Shadow and weaken us.

Did Rand say, think, or hint at this anywhere? My inclimation was that he always intended to break the seals just moments before his strike at Shayol Ghul and remake the prison using a completely different method than LTT's. Which makes perfect sense to me. And why would they possibly want to first fight the war and then strike SG? The moment you figure out how to seal the Bore (I think Moiraine will be coming with answers from the Eelfinn), attack Shayol Ghul with all the strength you can muster and end this war. That way, even if your enemy completely wipes you out, you've won. And the enemy will know that. That's pretty bad for morale, I'd say.

 

 

Edit: by the way, if Rand does indeed plan to do this then I have to agree with Egwene that it's a crackbrained scheme.

 

Nar, he didn't say anything like that. Her observations are correct, she just got Rand's intentions wrong. Rand plans on going to Shayol Ghul to seal the DO that very day. She assumes he is planning a protracted war. (no idea where this comes from, I think it is just a part to make the retcon go smoothly)

 

Mind you, Rand intentionally left out details, so her assumption may well be a logical one. I think she didn't take Rand literally when he said he was going to Shayol Ghul, that he meant he would start an invasion of the Blight. Which he has not planned, he has admitted he won't be a part of the "war" aspect. Most likely he was planning to let the armies deal with the Shadowspawn and he would skip to Shayol Ghul while it is relatively "undefended" (I use it loosely, since I doubt it will be, but much less so than before)

 

Pretty much a lack of communication, which was likely intentional on Rand's part. He wanted her to gather people to "stop" him. He will agree with her logic set out in Chapter 1, since that was pretty much the plan. He won't let it come to conflict, as he says to Perrin.

 

I fear that ToM was intentionally deceiving with Rand ( lack of perspective) and Egwene (also lack of perspective). It didn't work out too well though, it creates inconsistencies, which make the retcons in Chapter 1 painful.

 

Edit: Bah, ninja'd by Logain.

[Amandera]

Yes, I agree with both of you. I am just wondering what gave Egwene the idea. Rand didn't imply this to Egwene at the meeting at White Tower. In fact, what he said is:

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

Well, that's about the most straightforward thing Rand ever said to Egwene about any of his plans throughout the series. Wait one month, go to SG, break the seals, seal the Bore. That's Rand's plan and he said as much. But why does Egwene think he wants to fight the entire war with Bore wide open? In later talks, Nynaeve says to her "why not break the seals when Rand is there to face DO", Egwene's answer is simple "it's foolish and risky".

 

So what? Didn't that mean she thinks Rand will break the seals just before his attack? Why the change of heart now?

[fionwe1987]

Egwene: Rand intends to enter the Last Battle and break the seals immediately, but that is a dreadful idea. We have an extended war ahead of us. Freeing the Dark One now will strengthen the forces of the Shadow and weaken us.

Did Rand say, think, or hint at this anywhere? My inclimation was that he always intended to break the seals just moments before his strike at Shayol Ghul and remake the prison using a completely different method than LTT's. Which makes perfect sense to me. And why would they possibly want to first fight the war and then strike SG? The moment you figure out how to seal the Bore (I think Moiraine will be coming with answers from the Eelfinn), attack Shayol Ghul with all the strength you can muster and end this war. That way, even if your enemy completely wipes you out, you've won. And the enemy will know that. That's pretty bad for morale, I'd say.

 

 

Edit: by the way, if Rand does indeed plan to do this then I have to agree with Egwene that it's a crackbrained scheme.

Rand told Egwene that he was going off to Shayol Ghul immediately after Merrilor. He also thinks the same the day before Merrilor. He plans to go to SG, break the Seals, and confront the DO. Except that he has no plan for this confrontation, and still isn't even sure if they should reseal the DO ot take more... drastic measures. His insistence that breaking the Seals right away without a plan to reseal the DO is mystifying. Its almost too stupid, and maybe we don't know something he knows.

 

Independently of this, Egwene assesses that there's a lot of the LB to go. One major reason is likely because all the previous confrontations between humanity and the DO lasted for hundreds of years, not a few days. While this one may not last for years, I really doubt its a matter of a few days either. And thus, Egwene believes that its a silly idea to break the Seals right away.

 

When she learns Rand doesn't have a plan to reseal the DO, her stance will likely solidify further, and she'll probably get the support of a lot more people.

[fionwe1987]

Yes, I agree with both of you. I am just wondering what gave Egwene the idea. Rand didn't imply this to Egwene at the meeting at White Tower. In fact, what he said is:

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

Well, that's about the most straightforward thing Rand ever said to Egwene about any of his plans throughout the series. Wait one month, go to SG, break the seals, seal the Bore. That's Rand's plan and he said as much. But why does Egwene think he wants to fight the entire war with Bore wide open? In later talks, Nynaeve says to her "why not break the seals when Rand is there to face DO", Egwene's answer is simple "it's foolish and risky".

 

So what? Didn't that mean she thinks Rand will break the seals just before his attack? Why the change of heart now?

That's just inconsistencies from ToM. I think Brandon didn't have Egwene state her real intentions in ToM because it would rob a lot of tension from the end. He needed everyone to expect a major confrontation on the Seals issue. As we can see now, its more likely to be a discussion of exact plans and stuff, not an ideological debate on whether the Seals should be broken at all.

[Amandera]

Well, what you said is pretty similar to my thoughts. I'm just saying all of a sudden Egwene got an idea in her head, when Rand clearly implied that he'll do the almost opposite thing. It doesn't make sense.

 

By the way I could argue that entire Third Age has been a confrontation between Light and Shadow and Tarmon Gaidon is just the peak of that confrontation. The prison was weak, Shadow has always had a considerable support among the people, there has always been the Blight. Ishamael was free and has been preparing for Tarmon Gaidon the entire age. It's clear DO has touched the world, albeit in a very limited way. Two times in the Third Age people had a chance for a long-term peace. The first is Compact of the Ten Nations which Shadow broke with Trolloc Wars, the second is Hawkwing's time which arguably Ishamael countered by getting rid of his heirs and starting War of the Hundred Years. DO never gave civilization a chance to rise much or have unity, in fact it pretty much always went downwards in my opinion.

[Hopefire]

 

Whatever Egwene's original intention, whatever Rand's original intention, the Pattern is going to be trying to guide them towards common ground. Rand may have been intending to immediately break the Seals, Egwene may have intended that no Seal breaking should ever occur. If neither if those is what the Pattern needs, neither is likely to happen, and they'll find the middle ground that they're already leaning towards.

 

 

 

[thisguy]

Thanks, Luckers.

[Amandera]

Whatever Egwene's original intention, whatever Rand's original intention, the Pattern is going to be trying to guide them towards common ground. Rand may have been intending to immediately break the Seals, Egwene may have intended that no Seal breaking should ever occur. If neither if those is what the Pattern needs, neither is likely to happen, and they'll find the middle ground that they're already leaning towards.

I don't know about this. I think preserving unity is entirely up to the people. Look at LTT's arrogance and despair, and Latra Posae Decume's dogged insistence in a stupid plan in the Age of Legends. They split the Light's forces right in the middle. It's possible to happen again, even though I don't think it will this time.