The Band of the Red Hand - Spoiler

[b3arz3rg3r]

There's only one comment about losses of the band I remember in the prologue and it's still rather early in Caemlyn's fall. Something about 100 dead. And the other comment is about a thousand or so. But BS really bungled the Band action in Caemlyn. There are 10k to 15k of the Band in Caemlyn. Far more than enough to achieve both goals, reaching the palace and securing the Dragons at the same time and since for some reason Estean is in charge of the detachment with Elayne that means two capable commanders who both outrank him, Edorion and Daerid are still in Caemlyn.

The losses of the Band are probably negligible since most of it never entered Caemlyn. In fact I would assume that most of the mercenaries outside of Caemlyn will end up as part of the Band due to Mat's ta'veren effect. So while they may have lost a thousand inside they'll gain ten times that much outside.

 

How was it bungled? Talmanes never wanted to safe the city, he wanted to get in and out with the cannons. Taking a huge army in would have had every trolloc in the city flocking to them, and even if they had managed to defeat them all, fighting in the streets in the dark would have been potentially hugely damaging. Not to mention, for all he knows, there could have been a million trolloc reinforcements on the way.

 

Mat would have done exactly the same thing, taking in a small force. He may have done it better through some brilliant tactics and whatnot, but Talmanes did fine.

 

What was bungled was first Talmanes sending half the Band with Elayne under Estean. Is there any reason given for him sending half the Band with her? Elayne wanted the Band with her when she entered Cairhien, but that is done with and she has her own army no need for the Band. And assuming there was some reason I missed why send them under command of Estean? As Mat said, the man is a fool. Edorion would be a better choice and Daerid the best since he's the number three of the Band after Mat and Talmanes.

The second thing that was bungled was that BS made it look like Talmanes could only get to the palace and secure the Dragons in sequence. He had 10 to 15k soldiers and since Estean is in charge of Elayne's detachment he also must have had Edorion and Daerid. Those two could have secured the Dragons while Talmanes went to the palace.

 

So you would prefer he risked every competent officer under him to infilitrate a city that was already over run and in chaos, rather then have them hang around outside with the bulk of the army? As I pointed out, Talmanes has no idea about the size of the Trolloc forces, where there were reinforcements coming, etc etc. There could have been eight billion of them just standing around slaughtering people. For all he knew, he could have marched every commander in the Hand to their death if he went with your option.

 

And they sent Estean because he is a fool, and thus sent off to make Elayne happy she was getting a commanding officer.

 

Anyway, you believe he bungled it, I believe he did good on the tactical front and also did the sensible thing in the long run. Each to our own!

 

No, I believe one of the two could have done it and if not them some other officer.

 

Lol @ Estean being send to play the fool with Elayne

What was bungled was first Talmanes sending half the Band with Elayne under Estean. Is there any reason given for him sending half the Band with her? Elayne wanted the Band with her when she entered Cairhien, but that is done with and she has her own army no need for the Band. And assuming there was some reason I missed why send them under command of Estean? As Mat said, the man is a fool. Edorion would be a better choice and Daerid the best since he's the number three of the Band after Mat and Talmanes.

I don't think half of the Band being away from Caemlyn at this point had anything to do with Talmanes. They left while Mat was still in Caemlyn, didn't they? Besides, they have a contract with Elayne, so if she wants half of them in Cairhien or at Merrilor or wherever, they have to to. Unless Mat decided to break off the deal entirely.

 

As for Estean, it just says he's away with the other half of the Band, not that he commands it. Whoever commands this group was surely chosen by Mat anyway.

 

Mat left before Elayne left for Merrilor. As for the contract I don't have the book handy, all I'm sure of is that Mat didn't want a long term contract he couldn't get out of. There was that bit about Elayne wanting some Cairhienin to accompany when she claimed the Sunthrone, but that was done with and after that I just don't see a reason why Elayne would take a part of the Band with her. Sure the Band is ten times better than any comparable unit she has in her army, but Elayne doesn't know that. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve are very stubborn at being unable to see Mat's true skills.

[Suttree]

Sure the Band is ten times better than any comparable unit she has in her army, but Elayne doesn't know that. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve are very stubborn at being unable to see Mat's true skills.

 

On the contrary, Elayne at the very least has been coming around on Mat for sometime and Birgitte has certainly filled her in on just how skilled Mat is.

[David Selig]

Mat left before Elayne left for Merrilor.

Sure, but the Band had already split up into two groups before he left. And there's no indication that the Cairhien half came back to Caemlyn and then they split up again. Seems much more likely that they went straight from Cairhien to Merrilor, given that Elayne took the Sun Throne and travelled to Merrilor on the same day IIRC.

 

I just don't see a reason why Elayne would take a part of the Band with her. Sure the Band is ten times better than any comparable unit she has in her army, but Elayne doesn't know that. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve are very stubborn at being unable to see Mat's true skills.

It's the same reason all the other armies are coming there. The bigger army, the better.

 

BTW, Elayne in ToM mentioned almost the same as you did about the qualities of the Band - "Mat was a scoundrel, but he had a strangely good eye for tactics and warfare. A soldier under his command would be worth ten of the sell-sword riffraff she’d been forced to hire recently."

[Sid]

KoD As if the World Were Fog

“That’s going to change, Talmanes,” Toy growled. “I let it go on too long as it is. If Reimon and the others command banners now, that makes them Banner-Generals. And you a Lieutenant-General. Daerid commands five banners, and that makes him a Lieutenant-General, too. Reimon and the others will obey his orders or they can go home. Come Tarmon Gai’don, I’m not going to have my skull split open because they bloody refuse to listen to somebody who doesn’t have bloody estates.”

Talmanes turned his horse to ride around a patch of briars, and everyone followed. The tangled vines seemed to have particularly long thorns, and hooked besides. “They will not like it, Mat, but they will not go home, either. You know that. Have you any ideas yet how we are to get out of Altara?”

 

I figured, you know, if the band was breaking into two groups that the two highest ranked commanders other than Mat would be commanding those groups, namely Talmanes and Daerid. In fact, where the hell has Daerid been the last two books? He's mentioned twice in TGS (never on screen of course), but nothing at all since.

[elric]

why wouldnt Talmanes send 1/2 the band with Eilean.

 

consider the KNOWN situation

 

a. peace time /secure areas, no threat in sight (as he know of)

b. Eilean is the contract holder , and while mat al.lowd to choose if he fight or no, there was no fight intended in Cairhin and no reason to go against the employer wishes

c. gateway -> as gar as he know he could get them bacl or to them in matter of minutes

 

so why not please Eilean instead of going against her on a minor subject and cousing unneeded tension

 

btw Estean isnt an Idiot , Mat simply view several f his lordly believe as Idiotic and Edorion is simply better, it a case of decent commander vs good comander, if Estean was a complete Idiot Mat wouldnt hid risk putting him in command

 

and about the new title for Fadekillers , have no problem with that , and IMO the reason anglamar and surely Lan wasnt titled like that is becouse they overgrown such title: u kill 1 -3 faded u a Dreadbane -> u kill 300 (or 3K+ in LAN case :)) ) u bypass titles and simply greated with awe and respect :)

[b3arz3rg3r]

why wouldnt Talmanes send 1/2 the band with Eilean.

 

consider the KNOWN situation

 

a. peace time /secure areas, no threat in sight (as he know of)

b. Eilean is the contract holder , and while mat al.lowd to choose if he fight or no, there was no fight intended in Cairhin and no reason to go against the employer wishes

c. gateway -> as gar as he know he could get them bacl or to them in matter of minutes

 

so why not please Eilean instead of going against her on a minor subject and cousing unneeded tension

 

btw Estean isnt an Idiot , Mat simply view several f his lordly believe as Idiotic and Edorion is simply better, it a case of decent commander vs good comander, if Estean was a complete Idiot Mat wouldnt hid risk putting him in command

 

It just struck me as odd, I would have assumed that Talmanes would keep the Band together as much as possible since he knew any day now Mat could come and tell them to pack up and march for the Last Battle.

 

As I recall Estean's best quality was that he wasn't too stupid to listen to Daerid. XD

Sure the Band is ten times better than any comparable unit she has in her army, but Elayne doesn't know that. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve are very stubborn at being unable to see Mat's true skills.

 

On the contrary, Elayne at the very least has been coming around on Mat for sometime and Birgitte has certainly filled her in on just how skilled Mat is.

Mat left before Elayne left for Merrilor.

Sure, but the Band had already split up into two groups before he left. And there's no indication that the Cairhien half came back to Caemlyn and then they split up again. Seems much more likely that they went straight from Cairhien to Merrilor, given that Elayne took the Sun Throne and travelled to Merrilor on the same day IIRC.

 

I just don't see a reason why Elayne would take a part of the Band with her. Sure the Band is ten times better than any comparable unit she has in her army, but Elayne doesn't know that. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve are very stubborn at being unable to see Mat's true skills.

It's the same reason all the other armies are coming there. The bigger army, the better.

 

BTW, Elayne in ToM mentioned almost the same as you did about the qualities of the Band - "Mat was a scoundrel, but he had a strangely good eye for tactics and warfare. A soldier under his command would be worth ten of the sell-sword riffraff she’d been forced to hire recently."

 

I wonder when Elayne got that memo. In Ebou Dar she didn't know jack about his skills as a soldier and even in Andor everytime Birgitte made some comment about him they were mostly met with disbelief from what I recall. Mat must have told her more about his campaign offpanel when he met up with her in Caemlyn than I thought. Or rather BS probably goes with that assumption because it's easier to manage if more people are on the same page and trust each other.

[MasterAblar]

I wonder when Elayne got that memo. In Ebou Dar she didn't know jack about his skills as a soldier and even in Andor everytime Birgitte made some comment about him they were mostly met with disbelief from what I recall. Mat must have told her more about his campaign offpanel when he met up with her in Caemlyn than I thought. Or rather BS probably goes with that assumption because it's easier to manage if more people are on the same page and trust each other.

 

Perhaps after Mat saved her from the gholam she stopped believing that he was just a waste of space, and actually realized that other people might have a point when they were praising his ability as military commander.

[David Selig]

My theory is (Elayne heard from Guybon (who was stationed at Aryngil and should've known about it) how Mat and the Band repeatedly crushed Andoran forces which were superior in numbers. Or Aviendha finally remembered that she heard moiraine praise Mat's military achievements when just before he delivered the news about Morgase's "death" .

[Durinax]

My theory is (Elayne heard from Guybon (who was stationed at Aryngil and should've known about it) how Mat and the Band repeatedly crushed Andoran forces which were superior in numbers. Or Aviendha finally remembered that she heard moiraine praise Mat's military achievements when just before he delivered the news about Morgase's "death" .

avi wouldn't have gone on moraines word, Aiel tend to keep up on world news that is violent

[Aulduron]

It's not clear if the Band had actually moved closer to the city yet. hen reading the end of ToM, I pictured Talmanes looking far to see a brighter glow over Camelyn than usual.

 

Elayne asked to borrow the Carheinen in the Band, so the people didn't see a bunch of Andorans occupying them. Matt agreed.

 

Once Avienda set her straight, she started seeing Matt in a different light. She also had eyes and ears and Master Norry, once she got back to Camelyn.

[Unfitcheetah]

Can I add a crazy theory? Has Talmanes done enough in this battle or through his life to be a new hero bound to the horn, to be called back to Mats side during the last battle, when he blows it?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Can I add a crazy theory? Has Talmanes done enough in this battle or through his life to be a new hero bound to the horn, to be called back to Mats side during the last battle, when he blows it?

 

No. If Talmanes had what it takes to be one of the HotH there wouldn't just be a bit over a hundred of them. There would be thousands upon thousands. Also I think all Heroes are ta'veren to some extent in their more famous lives.

[Unfitcheetah]

Can I add a crazy theory? Has Talmanes done enough in this battle or through his life to be a new hero bound to the horn, to be called back to Mats side during the last battle, when he blows it?

 

No. If Talmanes had what it takes to be one of the HotH there wouldn't just be a bit over a hundred of them. There would be thousands upon thousands. Also I think all Heroes are ta'veren to some extent in their more famous lives.

 

Fair enough, as you can see from my number of posts I'm new the forum's. Though I will say I don't recall Birgitte ever being described as ta'veren, she was simple never missed with her bow, Gaidal Cain was always an excellent swords man and ugly but nothing more. They were bound to the horn for their bravery, Telmanes took two wounds from Myrddraal weapons and still saved the towns folk and the dragons in Caemlyn. He is also the first person we have seen to be named fade-killer.

 

But I see your point, he would probably need to do more to have the wheel take him. I'd still like to see him back for the last battle.

 

Thanks for listening to me waffle.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Can I add a crazy theory? Has Talmanes done enough in this battle or through his life to be a new hero bound to the horn, to be called back to Mats side during the last battle, when he blows it?

 

No. If Talmanes had what it takes to be one of the HotH there wouldn't just be a bit over a hundred of them. There would be thousands upon thousands. Also I think all Heroes are ta'veren to some extent in their more famous lives.

 

Fair enough, as you can see from my number of posts I'm new the forum's. Though I will say I don't recall Birgitte ever being described as ta'veren, she was simple never missed with her bow, Gaidal Cain was always an excellent swords man and ugly but nothing more. They were bound to the horn for their bravery, Telmanes took two wounds from Myrddraal weapons and still saved the towns folk and the dragons in Caemlyn. He is also the first person we have seen to be named fade-killer.

 

But I see your point, he would probably need to do more to have the wheel take him. I'd still like to see him back for the last battle.

 

Thanks for listening to me waffle.

 

Why I think they are ta'veren in their famous lives is that those lives are simply too eventful. They are the heroes of dozens of stories, almost single handedly save nations, defeat tyrants, create empires etc. They are spun out on purpose by the Pattern to drive events in a certain direction. Just like ta'veren they are effectively agents of the Pattern the only difference is that the Heroes spend their time between lives in TAR. As for Birgitte in her current incarnation she isn't ta'veren. She wasn't spun out by the Pattern for a specific purpse as she is in her other lives she was ripped out by Moghedien and that messed up things. Birgitte Tarhelion will be one of those lives of hers that won't be remembered.

[elric]

compare Talmanes to Lan :)

 

Lan seem to me as appropiate Horn recruit.

did Tal rose to his level ?

[FanoLan]

Do we know whether or not the entirety of the Heroes were chillin' in T'a'R prior to Falme? Is it possible some Heroes had already been born into the world at that time in the normal fashion? Birgitte references GC as having been spun out of T'a'R, but no one else is reported MIA throughout the rest of the story. However, the possibility has not been excluded to the best of my recollection. For all we know, Talmanes (or Lan) may be a Hero already, or am I misinterpreting something?

 

Edit- I remember Hawkwing saying something about "this is all there ever was" or something along those lines at Falme. Will have to grab the quote later.

Edit II - Just read the other thread, no need for quotes; Talmanes might be already bound too. Uncertain, at worst.