Big Demandred news

[Suttree]

I realise a lot of people think it would be disappointing if Demandred were in Shara, but it seems to me that this would in fact be the most thematically satisfying place for him to be. At one point (can't remember where now) we learn that someone in Shara has declared himself to be the Dragon and has gathered a following large enough to create major unrest (after the Pattern had already forcibly unseated other false Dragons, like Taim). Given that Demandred was always frustrated at having to play second fiddle to Lews Therin and considered himself to be the one truly worthy of leading the forces of the Light, it would make a great deal of sense for him to use his superior knowledge of the power to set himself up as a false Dragon. It would also give him command of a force large enough to make a real impact in the coming war. Murandy just seems like small potatoes.

 

I don't know whether this would pass the 'alter ego' test, but it is someone who has been mentioned at some point in the books.

 

I don't remember someone declaring themselves the Dragon in Shara...are you sure they weren't just freaking out hearing the news that Rand had declared himself? I thought they went in to pretty big unrest thinking that the lands would be broken again.

 

No one declared as the the Dragon in Shara. The unrest comes from Granedal stealing their Sh'boan and Sh'botay breaking the "seven year cycle". This threw the country into chaos and news of the DR furthered the decline.

 

No, there's a separate passage that mentions the Dragon specifically as the cause of unrest in Shara.

 

As I said news of the DR furthered the chaos Graendal caused. Regardles that is far different from someone else declaring as the Dragon in Shara. That never happened. If you wish to continue the discussion provide evidence of your claim.

 

LoC Ch. 17

"There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al’Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them" – Trollocs had entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground – "but if there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace. When you came from Rhuidean as the Car’a’carn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn." Rhuarc’s eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the World."

 

This combined with the cycles breaking is the cause of the unrest.

[Cybertrolloc]

I think a qualified sentence from Rhuarc and a stray thought from Graendal is just a bit insufficient to make that call for sure just yet (oh and whatever silk guy said) :) Could have used a bit more infodump from Farstrider on this.

 

From what's been posted in the prologue spoiler thread, hard to say what the strategic goals of the shadow are at this point, militarily or otherwise even from a public relations with the other Forsaken standpoint. In a run out the clock scenario, rofl-stomp Caemlyn -> draw response then hit other places sounds ok (shadow just has tons of resources to throw at whatever they want though, you don't need to be a military genius to just drown them).

 

Wouldn't answer the why Murandy question. Or the why not Seanchan, Shara, Tarabon, etc questions :)

[Neophyte]

Here are the pertinent passages:

 

LoC ch 6, Graendal speaking to Sammael:

 

"My newest acquisitions, from the lands beyond the Aiel Waste. They should thank me for rescuing them. Chiape was Sh'boan, a sort of empress, newly widowed, and Shaofan was to marry her and become Sh'botay. For seven years she would have ruled absolutely, then died. Whereupon he would have chosen a new Sh'boan and ruled absolutely until his death in seven years. They have followed that cycle for nearly three thousand years without a break." She gave a small laugh and shook her head wonderingly. "Shaofan and Chiape insist the deaths are natural. The Will of the Pattern, they call it. To them everything is the Will of the Pattern."

 

LoC ch 17: Rhuarc and Rand (others present)

 

"There is fighting in Shamara," Rhuarc said around his pipe-stem.

"Where?" Rand asked.

"Shamara. Or Shara. They give many names for their land. Co'dansin, Tomaka, Kigalij others. Any could be true, or none. They lie without thought, those people. Unwind every bolt of silk you trade for, or find that only the outside is silk. And if the next time in the tradehold you happen to find the man who traded with you, he will deny

seeing you before, or coming to trade before. If you press it, the others kill him to appease you, then say only he could do anything concerning the silk, and try to trade you water as wine."

"Why is fighting in Shara good news?" Rand asked softly. He did not really want to hear the answer. Berelain was listening with interest; no one except the Aiel and the Sea Folk knew much more of the closed lands beyond the Waste than that ivory and silk came from there. That, and the tales in The Travels of Jain Farstrider, which were probably too fanciful to be true. Though come to think of it, Rand did remember the lying being mentioned, and the different names, except the examples Farstrider had given matched none of Rhuarc's as far as he could recall.

"There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al'Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them"— Trollocs had entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground— "but if there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace. When you came from Rhuidean as the Car’a’carn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn." Rhuarc's eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the World."

 

Given what we're told in the BWB about the Ayyad's control over the Sh'boan and Sh'botay, it's not clear that their removal alone would cause widespread chaos, but the timing is suggestive. There's no reason that the removal of the Sh'boan and Sh'botay and the news of the Dragon Reborn are mutually exclusive as causes of unrest. And the timing of these events in LoC lends support to the idea that Demandred could be involved, as he is presumably highly active, though behind the scenes, in that book.

[mbuehner]

Dont forget about the Eighty and One, combined with Moridin's talk about his toys it leads me to beleive at least part of his rule involves a personal gang of channelers. There are a few possibilities, but I think the Samma N'Sei would make a lot of sense as the new 80&1. My money says Demandred is in charge of the shadowspawn hordes as well as training the eyeblinders in the higher levels of destruction (as well as Taim most likely). This would explain the DO's approval of Demmy after the Asha'Man crap storm of power at the end of LoC, Demmy provided the weaves for Taim to train the AM, and they had been well trained in destruction to become future dreadlords, hence the DO's happiness. Somebody has to marshall and supply millions of trollocs in the blight, which would require large numbers of channelers and organization (and perhaps portal stone worlds).

[mbuehner]

If he can bring resources from Shara by gateway, then Murandy is a great place to deliver them for effect - right in the middle of the more populous southern part of Randland

 

If you can bring resources by gateway anyplace in the universe is a great place to deliver them.

 

Not if you might not be able to send them out by gateway again. Gathering forces can be done over time. Deploying them simultaneously using the same methods might not be possible - there are limits to what can be moved by gateway in physical terms. This is why Rand didn't just send grain to Arad Doman in wagons by gateway.

 

This is the best argument i've seen so far for Murandy having a big part to play. A forward supply dump for the Shadow is not a bad call.

[crazyrandisdead]

Both Suttree and Neophyte managed to find the passage I was thinking of. Seems I misremembered it, and my original theory doesn't quite hold up. But Neophyte's point that the timing of the quote (LOC) suggests a Demandred connection seems very plausible to me. Whether this would involve him impersonating Rand, or claiming to be the Dragon himself, or manipulating events in some other way is unclear. If it's one of the latter two, then the connection to the alter ego debate is purely tangential, since it doesn't provide any direct information about his identity. He could very well be Roedran on weekdays and playing around in Shara on the weekends.

[Amandera]

From Moghedien POV in aMoL Prologue:

Demandred had been changing lately. Once, he wouldn’t have cared who killed Lews Therin—so long as the man died. What made Demandred insist on doing the deed himself?

This seems important to me. Why the change? Maybe he met Rand and feels once again he has been overshadowed by LTT?

[Durinax]

From Moghedien POV in aMoL Prologue:

Demandred had been changing lately. Once, he wouldn’t have cared who killed Lews Therin—so long as the man died. What made Demandred insist on doing the deed himself?

This seems important to me. Why the change? Maybe he met Rand and feels once again he has been overshadowed by LTT?

perhaps I read it wrong, but Demandred actually didn't say he wanted to kill Rand, he just wanted to meet him in the field, so in effect compare himself against the Dragon once again

[Sid]

From Moghedien POV in aMoL Prologue:

Demandred had been changing lately. Once, he wouldn’t have cared who killed Lews Therin—so long as the man died. What made Demandred insist on doing the deed himself?

This seems important to me. Why the change? Maybe he met Rand and feels once again he has been overshadowed by LTT?

perhaps I read it wrong, but Demandred actually didn't say he wanted to kill Rand, he just wanted to meet him in the field, so in effect compare himself against the Dragon once again

I agree.

We haven't had a PoV from Demandred since the Cleansing. I don't believe he actually saw Rand then, but he did comment on the brilliance of his plan. Lews Therin was always a brilliant planner, but not so brilliant as Demandred was. Perhaps his inability to destroy Rand's plan that time (though he immediately ascertained how he could) got him back into his full-out jealousy/hatred way of thinking, trying to outshine the Dragon just once in his life. If someone killed Rand before that, he'd never have that chance.

[Stubby]

I just don't think the tiny, puny, and ultimately weak patchwork nation called Murandy is big enough to stroke Big D's ego. Red veils and Sharans on the other hand....

Little does he know that he won't face Rand on the battlefield (too busy with DO), he will be facing Logain.

[What's a Seawolf?]

From Moghedien POV in aMoL Prologue:

Demandred had been changing lately. Once, he wouldn’t have cared who killed Lews Therin—so long as the man died. What made Demandred insist on doing the deed himself?

This seems important to me. Why the change? Maybe he met Rand and feels once again he has been overshadowed by LTT?

perhaps I read it wrong, but Demandred actually didn't say he wanted to kill Rand, he just wanted to meet him in the field, so in effect compare himself against the Dragon once again

I agree.

We haven't had a PoV from Demandred since the Cleansing. I don't believe he actually saw Rand then, but he did comment on the brilliance of his plan. Lews Therin was always a brilliant planner, but not so brilliant as Demandred was. Perhaps his inability to destroy Rand's plan that time (though he immediately ascertained how he could) got him back into his full-out jealousy/hatred way of thinking, trying to outshine the Dragon just once in his life. If someone killed Rand before that, he'd never have that chance.

 

Could Demandred have had a change of heart of sorts after the cleansing? Now he doesn't need any protection to ward of the insanity with saidin being clean. Maybe he started to think he can do things more his own way. Plus, with saidin clean, if the DO gets sealed off, he can still survive as opposed to pre-cleansing. Now Rand defeating the DO isn't as big a deal (in his mind,) and he can afford to wait to do the deed himself?

 

If I remember correctly, Demandred didn't cross over to the dark to be a cheerleader for evil, but simply because he was tired of Lews Therin. Maybe, now that saidin is clean, he really doesn't care about the overall goals of the dark forces.

[Amandera]

perhaps I read it wrong, but Demandred actually didn't say he wanted to kill Rand, he just wanted to meet him in the field, so in effect compare himself against the Dragon once again

He did say it before though, in TGS where he, Mesaana and Graendal is summoned by Moridin:

"And what say you of this, Demandred?" Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

"I want Lews Therin," Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. "Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she'd killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al'Thor. Nobody but me."

[mike hunt's here]

Logain = Demandred...

[Suttree]

Logain = Demandred...

 

Well just about every other male channeler has been connected to him at this point so might as well throw Logain into the pile ;)

 

In the off chance this wasn't sacrasm, it of course ignores he has already been ruled out.

[MasterAblar]

Logain = Demandred...

 

How dare you!!

[Neophyte]

Logain = Demandred...

 

How dare you!!

 

That's just what Demandred would say ... hmm ....

[MasterAblar]

Logain = Demandred...

 

How dare you!!

 

That's just what Demandred would say ... hmm ....

 

BALEFIRE *whistles*

[MarkDiLillo]

Demandred as Logain would really have been amazing. if only...

[mike hunt's here]

think about it...logain is second fiddle to the Drags reborn..

 

got all upset about being a fly whisker or something.

 

waiting for his supposed glory...that may or may not come....

 

no need to bash this with all the "proof" that logain can't be big D. It was just a thought as more and more of big D is revealed...if you know nothing else...Logain fits.

[MarkDiLillo]

RJ and BS confirmed that Demandreds alter ego had not appeared on screen during the first 10 books or so. This means that it physically cannot be Logain.

[Terez]

A post I made at TL:

 

Why Roedred

[Cybertrolloc]

So very little new and what there is is filtered through it has to be Roedran. Yay.

 

Kandor, Arafel, Tarabon, can we eliminate these somehow (yah, there's not really anyway to figure much out about Seanchan/Shara except WoG).

[NitroS]

A post I made at TL:

 

Why Roedred

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/51305/I-have-an-idea-of-who-Demandred-could-be#reply-51305

 

Is this where the theory was first mentioned?

[Alonin]

Roedred could have a big impact. Rand said he couldn't have anyone leave FoM. SO with Roedran there, he could cause division and delay the light. And then if Rand does pound unity into them, and he attacks Caemlyn, Demandred could somehow get his forces to attack the rest of the light and then abandon them to their destruction.

I like the Shara plan because Greffalump kidnapped the leaders, and then fighting erupted, so it's easy for Demandred to build up power and take control of the Ayyad there. Then if he took one black sister to teach them traveling and linking, he could bring them to attack rands forces.

[NitroS]

Its guaranteed to be roedran if it wasnt before after him being mentioned again in chapter 1 and then demandred so heavily talked about.