[Full Prologue Spoiler] The Punishment of Cyndane

[snooze1128]

I'm sorry if this already has its own thread, but I haven't found it easily...

 

What is everyone's best guess as to why Cyndane is "the one who is punished most." (Moridin)

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Cyndane's most recent activities are as follows:

1. Failed assasination attempt, ends up falling into doorway with Moiraine, where she earns a nice visit to the 'Fins.
   
2. Moridin shows up, kills her.
   
3. Dark Lord revives her in the form of Cyndane.
   
4. Cyndane is mind trapped; fails to obstruct the cleansing of Saidin.
   
5. Cyndane appears sobbing and miserable in Rand's dream.
   
6. Cyndane may or may not have been the individual to ask Isam to assinate Rand.
   

 

So my question is this: Does falling into a Finland with Morraine the sole reason she's being "punished" the most? I hope we find out some additional behind-the-scenes information in aMoL to add to her recent history...

[MasterAblar]

I'm sorry if this already has its own thread, but I haven't found it easily...

 

What is everyone's best guess as to why Cyndane is "the one who is punished most." (Moridin)

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Cyndane's most recent activities are as follows:

1. Failed assasination attempt, ends up falling into doorway with Moiraine, where she earns a nice visit to the 'Fins.
    
   
2. Moridin shows up, kills her.
    
   
3. Dark Lord revives her in the form of Cyndane.
    
   
4. Cyndane is mind trapped; fails to obstruct the cleansing of Saidin.
    
   
5. Cyndane appears sobbing and miserable in Rand's dream.
    
   
6. Cyndane may or may not have been the individual to ask Isam to assinate Rand.
   

So my question is this: Does falling into a Finland with Morraine the sole reason she's being "punished" the most? I hope we find out some additional behind-the-scenes information in aMoL to add to her recent history...

 

 

She was actively helping Rand the whole time. She was very, very close to betraying the Shadow.

[lolguy26]

I'm sorry if this already has its own thread, but I haven't found it easily...

 

What is everyone's best guess as to why Cyndane is "the one who is punished most." (Moridin)

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Cyndane's most recent activities are as follows:

1. Failed assasination attempt, ends up falling into doorway with Moiraine, where she earns a nice visit to the 'Fins.
    
   
2. Moridin shows up, kills her.
    
   
3. Dark Lord revives her in the form of Cyndane.
    
   
4. Cyndane is mind trapped; fails to obstruct the cleansing of Saidin.
    
   
5. Cyndane appears sobbing and miserable in Rand's dream.
    
   
6. Cyndane may or may not have been the individual to ask Isam to assinate Rand.
   

So my question is this: Does falling into a Finland with Morraine the sole reason she's being "punished" the most? I hope we find out some additional behind-the-scenes information in aMoL to add to her recent history...

 

 

She was actively helping Rand the whole time. She was very, very close to betraying the Shadow.

my thoughts exactly

[yoniy0]

She didn't actively help Rand any more than Moridin did himself a few books later. There's nothing to suggest the DO would object to her trying to turn Rand (although he probably wouldn't think well of her suggestion involving the CK), or throwing Asmodean under the bus to get him there (no more than He might to Moridin's telling Rand where to find Sammael).

 

My guess is that it's her attempt to kill Rand that landed her in that situation. The first one in TFoH, and perhaps even the second one (with Isam, if it was her), if the timelines match.

[Barid Bel Medar]

She didn't actively help Rand any more than Moridin did himself a few books later. There's nothing to suggest the DO would object to her trying to turn Rand (although he probably wouldn't think well of her suggestion involving the CK), or throwing Asmodean under the bus to get him there (no more than He might to Moridin's telling Rand where to find Sammael).

 

My guess is that it's her attempt to kill Rand that landed her in that situation. The first one in TFoH, and perhaps even the second one (with Isam, if it was her), if the timelines match.

 

I don't exactly disagree with you, but it could be her helping Rand.

 

As Moggy thinks, don't expect fairness from the Great Lord.

 

Ishamael got himself killed trying to kill Rand - he then basically saves Rand's life and helps him kill Sammael. (Graendal was punished for Mesaana, and this situation wasn't so different)

 

I wonder about the punishment, it makes me more inclined to believe her pleas are geunine (being free of the Shadow, not necessarily helping Rand, she will just do anything to escape). The others have shown similar incompetence and attempting to kill Rand isn't a big deal, basically all of them have done it, but none have been punished THAT much.

 

It makes me bleieve that Lanfear actively betrayed the Shadow (like when she says she could challenge the DO and Creator) which put her in hot water. Betrayal is the only thing that would warrant the punishment, in my opinion.

 

 

Edit: I effectively contradict myself here. I assume that betrayal is the only reasonable crime to warrant this, but above quoted Moggy on how fairness shouldn't be expected. Still though, I don't see why they would treat her that harsh for any other reason. Unless the DO and Moridin just don't like her.

[PaulChauvet]

She's the only forsaken who said (and more than once) that she would abandon and turn against the DO (not counting Asmodean and she had a hand in that too).

[deviant728]

One thing that I thought of instantly when I read the scene between Isam and the Chosen that I am curious what everyone else thinks.

 

First, I am fairly certain that I am correct in assuming that the masked Chosen was indeed Cyndane. Although there is no guarantee that this is the case based off the Forsaken dreamshard get-together, I'm fairly certain it is based on my second assumption.

 

Second, I think the reason she wants Rand killed is in order to get to Moridin by means of the link with Rand. We are not sure the extent of the link or to what extent one is affected by what the other experiences, but we do know that Moridin states he could kill Semi for burning off Rand's hand. I take that to mean that physical harm to one affects the other. I think Cyndane has been tortured beyond what she can take and wants it to end. She has likely seen the effects of the link on Moridin because of Moridin controlling her cour'souvra (sorry if that is misspelled, I do not have my books in front of me) and her being in close proximity to him as a result. I believe that she seeks Rand's demise in order to have some detrimental affect on Moridin, either killing him or harming him substantially. I think this will either leave Moridin paralyzed to some degree or knocked out, which may allow Cyndane an opportunity to recover her cour'souvra.

 

Presumably, Cyndane knows a sufficient amount about how her cour'souvra works to believe that she can recover it if the one holding it were incapacited in some manner. Of course, this is all conjecture as we really don't know the extent of the link nor much about how the cour'souvras work. But this is the only thing that explains why one of the forsaken would want Rand dead at this late stage in the game. Any thoughts?

[yoniy0]

attempting to kill Rand isn't a big deal, basically all of them have done it, but none have been punished THAT much.

Actually, the only one to actively try was Sammael (he did that in cooperation with Rahvin, Graendal and Lanfear, but Graendal is the only one left out of that groop who wasn't either being punished or beyond that, and she might've hidden her involvement). That could well explain why Moridin discarded of him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

attempting to kill Rand isn't a big deal, basically all of them have done it, but none have been punished THAT much.

Actually, the only one to actively try was Sammael (he did that in cooperation with Rahvin, Graendal and Lanfear, but Graendal is the only one left out of that groop who wasn't either being punished or beyond that, and she might've hidden her involvement). That could well explain why Moridin discarded of him.

 

Indeed, the others who have attacked him were beyond the DO's grasp, so it does make sense.

 

I still think that it is an unusual amount of punishment, but who knows the reasons of the Shadow? It doesn't take much.

[snooze1128]

One thing that I thought of instantly when I read the scene between Isam and the Chosen that I am curious what everyone else thinks.

 

First, I am fairly certain that I am correct in assuming that the masked Chosen was indeed Cyndane. Although there is no guarantee that this is the case based off the Forsaken dreamshard get-together, I'm fairly certain it is based on my second assumption.

 

Second, I think the reason she wants Rand killed is in order to get to Moridin by means of the link with Rand. We are not sure the extent of the link or to what extent one is affected by what the other experiences, but we do know that Moridin states he could kill Semi for burning off Rand's hand. I take that to mean that physical harm to one affects the other. I think Cyndane has been tortured beyond what she can take and wants it to end. She has likely seen the effects of the link on Moridin because of Moridin controlling her cour'souvra (sorry if that is misspelled, I do not have my books in front of me) and her being in close proximity to him as a result. I believe that she seeks Rand's demise in order to have some detrimental affect on Moridin, either killing him or harming him substantially. I think this will either leave Moridin paralyzed to some degree or knocked out, which may allow Cyndane an opportunity to recover her cour'souvra.

 

Presumably, Cyndane knows a sufficient amount about how her cour'souvra works to believe that she can recover it if the one holding it were incapacited in some manner. Of course, this is all conjecture as we really don't know the extent of the link nor much about how the cour'souvras work. But this is the only thing that explains why one of the forsaken would want Rand dead at this late stage in the game. Any thoughts?

 

I really like this, as we know Rand and Moridin are linked in a physical sense. I think when Rand loses his hand, Moridin walks around holding his shoulder. This kind of reminds me of something I learned in psychology class called Phantom Pain (if an individual loses their right hand, for instance, then puts a mirror besides their remaining hand to trick their mind into seeing two hands, then prick their existing hand with a needle, the brain mimics that pain in the hand that's actually missing... pretty cool stuff).

Anyway, if Cyndane wants Rand dead just so she can temporarily maim Moridin, then that would certainly allow her the opportunity to snag her mindtrap back, although there's one glaring issue here, and that's the fact that SH would definitely find her pretty quickly and be likely wouldn't be pleased...

[MarkDiLillo]

She was literally Rand's greatest ally in the entire series for a couple of books outside of Moiraine.

 

- Saved his life in Tear. May or may not have been following orders to keep him alive, but based on conversation with Sammael it is implied that it was OK to kill him at this point.

- Saved his life from the mirror world. Though a lot of people seem to disagree with me and think Lanfear sent him there in the first place...I feel like Rand accidentally did it in his sleep. Spirit is the only power that can be channeled in your sleep, is the only power needed to work the portal stones, and he went to sleep wrapping himself in the void with saidin.

- Healed him and saved his life at the end of TGH.

- Saved him in Caemlyn (or was it somewhere else? Illuminators guild, etc.)

- Carefully betrayed Asmodeon and shielded him to give Rand a teacher. This is probably her most grievous defense in the eyes of the shadow.

- Visited him and gave him tips about other Forsaken and their plans.

 

There are probably a couple more that I cant think of at the moment. The one that lands her in the biggest trouble with the Shadow was giving Rand a teacher though IMO. All of the other Forsaken were at least actively working for the Shadow...some just failed miserably. Lanfear was completely doing her own thing so I think thats the reason she was punished so badly. Just flagrantly using her position as Forsaken to her advantage while playing her own games entirely.

 

I also don't' think she's locked up or anything. I think she's just tortured horribly day and night but has leave to go about certain tasks that Moridin gives her. She might get 8 hours a day away from her cell but has to be there by her 7pm curfew everyday for example.

[yoniy0]

She didn't save Rand in the Stone. She actually distracted him for a bit when the trouble started. The Trollocs fighting on his side were sent there by Semirhage, on orders from the DO (so much for saving his life being against the Shadow's wishes, while we're on the topic, with regards to what she did in Falme).

As you say, the Mirror World hardly constitutes saving him. Even if he found his way there on his own (which I don't believe. See Egwene's Dream), she only manipulated him and summoned grolm so she could push him in the right direction.

I have no clue what you mean regarding Caemlyn, so I'll defer judgement.

And finally, regarding Asmodean, whatever made you think the DO would object to Rand being educated? He seemed set on luring Rand to the Shadow, and educating him could fit into that (that is, if the plan has worked, which it didn't).

[PaulChauvet]

And finally, regarding Asmodean, whatever made you think the DO would object to Rand being educated? He seemed set on luring Rand to the Shadow, and educating him could fit into that (that is, if the plan has worked, which it didn't).

 

I just have this image of the DO campaigning for office

AND I WILL EDUCATE ALL - EVEN THE WORMS WHO FIGHT AGAINST ME. HOW CAN YOU BE MORE PRO EDUCATION THAN I AM - VOTE SHAI'TAN!

[MarkDiLillo]

Where did we find out that Semirhage sent the trollocs to the stone to save him?

 

Wont get into the mirror world debate again - unless someone has a quote from an authority source I consider it up in the air still.

 

Caemlyn may have been Cairhein actually. Recall how she helped him escape from trollocs hunting him there and helped him escape capture in the Illuminators guild.

 

The Dark One referred to Asmodeon as a traitor and in a negative fashion. Ishamael clearly used the "I can teach you and you wont die" line multiple times as a hook for him going to the shadow. I dont think there is much question that the big thing she did wrong was helping him with Asmo. Without a teacher he would have been much less competent and much more capable of failure against the shadow.

 

Overall the point I was making was not that Lanfear was disboeying the DO...but that she was actually his greatest ally in the entire series up through the first few books. The only one who actually helped and supported him more ended up being Moiraine. Looking at it from that light it is very easy to understand why she is being punished IMO. Now I understand that she was not actually on his side and is inherently evil - I'm just stating that if you look at what she's done from purely a standpoint of her actions...she didnt do dick for the shadow and basically helped the light. The goal was to turn him to the shadow, corrupt him enough to destroy the world on his own, or kill him at times. The goal was not to willfully assist him for the benefit of your own goals.

[lolguy26]

And finally, regarding Asmodean, whatever made you think the DO would object to Rand being educated? He seemed set on luring Rand to the Shadow, and educating him could fit into that (that is, if the plan has worked, which it didn't).

 

I just have this image of the DO campaigning for office

AND I WILL EDUCATE ALL - EVEN THE WORMS WHO FIGHT AGAINST ME. HOW CAN YOU BE MORE PRO EDUCATION THAN I AM - VOTE SHAI'TAN!

LooL

[yoniy0]

Where did we find out that Semirhage sent the trollocs to the stone to save him?

Here:

any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.

 

Caemlyn may have been Cairhein actually. Recall how she helped him escape from trollocs hunting him there and helped him escape capture in the Illuminators guild.

Ah, but she didn't help him. She tried making him channel, but he refused. Finally she slipped away and left him to his own devices.

 

The Dark One referred to Asmodeon as a traitor and in a negative fashion.

That He did, I'll grant you. This doesn't mean He would fault Lanfear for enabling him, but I agree this is the strongest point you've made. Still, the DO wanted Rand to do exactly what he was doing up until VoG (with the exception of the Cleansing), so I don't think it's really that big of a deal.

[MarkDiLillo]

Seems like we are pretty much in agreement overall anyways. She actually did help him in Cairhien though...I totally forgot about this part until I recently reread the series. He was pretty much losing the chase to escape Trollocs and they were herding him into a trap and she came and guided him out. Then later on in the Illuminators Guild it was implied that she actually made them invisible to escape notice. Then she went into bitch mode and got pissed off that he still wasn't grabbing for glory so she left.

[Sharaman]

She did apparently Heal Rand after Falme?

 

However, I think it was the following that may have got the GLoD angry

1) She showed several signs of rebelling against HIM and potentially allying with Rand against HIM. The GLoD won't tolerate that.

2) She also went batshit on the dock and did her best to kill Rand without any orders

 

Alternatively HE/ Moridin believes that Cyndi Lanfear needs special treatment to keep in line

She's not being punished as such - just given a hint of what will happen if she doesn't do exactly as she's told.

[Neophyte]

I think there is another possibility to be considered - perhaps she's being punished simply as a way to try to draw Rand out. I doubt the Dark One feels a need to justify punishing someone - if he thinks it will help his cause, then torture away, whether she did something to "deserve" it or not.

[flinn]

I am wondering how much the price Moridin had to pay to kill her and release her plays into it.

I am sure he had to sacrifice something personal for his price, same as Mat.

[MarkDiLillo]

Dont count on Moridin having had to pay a price. He very likely knows enough about them to understand how their rules work, and given that he can channel TP and OP it is likely they couldn't stop him from doing what he wants. If you recall, they were afraid of Rand in Tear. Given the wild events that were occuring when Moiraine and Lanfear went through, it is possible they were injured or knocked unconscious and were not able to fight back once they went through. In fact, it is almost certain that is the case...otherwise Lanfear would have killed Moiraine quite quickly before moving on to dealing with the Finns.

[yoniy0]

Why, he would only need to ask to be taken to her. As long as his not killing her isn't mentioned, he's free to do as he will. And, if he went in through a ter'angrel, he's free to use the Power as a deterrent the same way Rand did.

[sleepinghour]

I am wondering how much the price Moridin had to pay to kill her and release her plays into it.

I am sure he had to sacrifice something personal for his price, same as Mat.

 

Moridin wouldn't sacrifice anything important just to save a disgraced Forsaken like Lanfear. But he has access to many other things they would want. They seem to collect *angreal, so he could just have given them a few objects from his own stash. Or supplied them with a bunch of other human prisoners to make belts of / drain the Power from.

[Dollhouse]

What is everyone's best guess as to why Cyndane is "the one who is punished most." (Moridin) .

Actually I don't think it has to be that cut and dry.

 

1. her being punished the most might refer to something that he PLANS to do when she is tricked into doing something she thinks she is doing of her own free will.

 

2. The punishment might be something that would only be a punishment to her -- maybe being forbidden not to kill Rand and then forced to help him in order to trick him. If she is really angry with him right now, this would be punishment.

 

3. If it is physical torture then the reason might not be something she has done, but rather she is being punished in order for her to either be so psychologically broken that she will even kill herself to serve the shadow -- or that she will try and side with the light. (see Xanatos gambit by the Great Lord.)

[Terez]

Relevant signing report:

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/09/spoiler-thread-for-a-memory-of-light-prologue-qby-grace-and-banners-fallenq#comments

 

1. Cyndane is the one who is punished most.

 

2. Brandon says her POVs are reliable on how she thinks. That means she truly does want Rand dead, and we can't trust what we saw in the TOM epilogue. (Which many of us already assumed.)

 

3. RAFO on whether she was the one talking to Isam. But the main objection to it being her was this idea that she really wanted to make peace with Rand, which is clearly not true.