So, a Dreadlord walks into a bar... [AMOL Prologue spoilers]

[yoniy0]

Wolf505 claimed Occam Razor implies it's Cyndane because of her appearance and her naming Rand Lews Therin. Of course the fact that it being Cyndane isn't obvious doesn't imply that it's not true, but I was only commenting on that. If we assume a mask of mirrors, then Cyndane is just one of many possible culprits (for her, calling him "Al'Thor" doesn't fit, as well as her appearing to be otherwise occupied around that time, being punished).

[MarkDiLillo]

Graeffalump doesn't fit chronologically in the original context of this PoV--not even as Graendal. I'm talking about description either, but motive and the hatred expressed do not match her interests at that time, and it all goes expressly against her instructions.

 

Everyone keeps mentioning the chronology of the original PoV as written. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did RJ write the original prologues for aMoL himself as if it was going to be one book and then BS split it up and likewise split his prologue writings up as well?

 

If that's the case then ya it is definitely Cyndane.

[MarkDiLillo]

Wolf505 claimed Occam Razor implies it's Cyndane because of her appearance and her naming Rand Lews Therin. Of course the fact that it being Cyndane isn't obvious doesn't imply that it's not true, but I was only commenting on that. If we assume a mask of mirrors, then Cyndane is just one of many possible culprits (for her, calling him "Al'Thor" doesn't fit, as well as her appearing to be otherwise occupied around that time, being punished).

 

She calls him Lews Therin. She only refers to him as al'Thor when repeating the term to Slayer after Slayer referred to him as al'Thor. In other words, she didn't want to confuse the guy and used terms he would relate to. When she speaks of him on her own she uses Lews Therin. This is the big reason I think it is an obvious Cyndane. However, if what I suspect about the prologue is correct (mentioned above in response to Luckers) then it is clearly Cyndane unless some serious trickery is occuring.

[MarkDiLillo]

The way she stared into her goblet and the way she referred to Rand as Lews Therin really just scream Lanfear to me. I think it is so obvious that a lot of people are looking for another explanation simply because RJ was assuming we would figure it out and didn't put the obligatory proof into the writing that we are accustomed to.

 

I'm actually slightly disappointed if it is Cyndane because I was really looking forward to her being a tragic character that returns to the light. Her hatred for Rand seems entirely at odds with the dream scene from the last book now, and it is looking like the odds of her actually turning back to the light are getting slimmer.

[yoniy0]

She calls him Lews Therin. She only refers to him as al'Thor when repeating the term to Slayer after Slayer referred to him as al'Thor. In other words, she didn't want to confuse the guy and used terms he would relate to.

That's your opinion on why she did it. What she did, was call Rand "Al'Thor" once, then "Lews Therin" a couple of more times.

Also, I find that weird behavior. No one would be confused as to who "Lews Therin" is, especially when conversing with a Forsaken. There was no need to ensure Isam was following, but if there were, it wouldn't have gone away when she reverted to "Lews Therin" anyways.

[2RiversFan]

I imagine a clue that may point to which forsaken is in disguise may be from personal habits that are shown. You can disguise everything visually and audibly, but you forget about your own personal habits:

 

"Isam covered a grimace at the pain and bowed his head. The woman left him kneeling and took a seat at his table. She tapped a finger on the side of the tin cup for a few moments, staring at its contents, and did not speak."

 

 

 

Which forsaken has that habit? I recall seeing that habit from someone before, but I don't recall which character... and I don't have the books in any form that will allow me to search for it.

 

My gut feel is that the clues towards it being Cyndane are red herrings, but at the same time I won't be surprised if the character that has a habit of tapping a finger on cups turns out to be Lanfear/Cyndane.

[Neophyte]

She calls him Lews Therin. She only refers to him as al'Thor when repeating the term to Slayer after Slayer referred to him as al'Thor. In other words, she didn't want to confuse the guy and used terms he would relate to.

That's your opinion on why she did it. What she did, was call Rand "Al'Thor" once, then "Lews Therin" a couple of more times.

Also, I find that weird behavior. No one would be confused as to who "Lews Therin" is, especially when conversing with a Forsaken. There was no need to ensure Isam was following, but if there were, it wouldn't have gone away when she reverted to "Lews Therin" anyways.

 

Actually, yoniy0, you've got that backwards. She only calls him Lews Therin once. Every other time it is al'Thor. She calls him Lews Therin only when she talks about the fact that he will sense a trap. She calls him al'Thor three times - when she initially names him, when says "Kill al'Thor," and the last time when she talks about his guards.

 

The Graeffalump has every reason to hate al'Thor. The destruction of Natrin's Barrow started her whole downhill slide. Plus, I imagine she wants to hurt Moridin at this point, and if she knows they're linked, what better way to do it?

 

I'm not saying that Cyndane doesn't hate him too, at least as much. But she's clearly trying something different, given the sequence in Rand's dream at the end of ToM. It is her current situation as the "most punished one," in addition to the fact that she's either setting a trap for him, or she's bait in one set by someone else, that makes it unlikely to be Cyndane who speaks to Isam, in my opinion.

[yoniy0]

Which forsaken has that habit?

Good catch, but are you perhaps thinking of Mesaana tapping her bottom lip while thinking?

[MarkDiLillo]

This actually isn't worth even discussing if the prologue was split the way Luckers and others suggest. We know that RJ wrote this scene. If this was part of the original prologue scenes from what then was supposed to be a single book aMoL...then it is clearly Cyndane beause Graendal had not been killed yet and would have had no reason to disguise herself.

 

Given the above prologue info is true, the only other alternative to Cyndane is Moghedien and Moghedien doesn't seem to fit the bill based on description.

[yoniy0]

Mark D, this is obviously after Perrin has fought Isam over the Dreamspike, so I don't think that argument holds.

 

Actually, yoniy0, you've got that backwards. She only calls him Lews Therin once. Every other time it is al'Thor. She calls him Lews Therin only when she talks about the fact that he will sense a trap. She calls him al'Thor three times - when she initially names him, when says "Kill al'Thor," and the last time when she talks about his guards.

I stand corrected, although she only called him "Al'Thor" twice. The first time you mentioned was Isam.

[Neophyte]

I imagine a clue that may point to which forsaken is in disguise may be from personal habits that are shown. You can disguise everything visually and audibly, but you forget about your own personal habits:

 

"Isam covered a grimace at the pain and bowed his head. The woman left him kneeling and took a seat at his table. She tapped a finger on the side of the tin cup for a few moments, staring at its contents, and did not speak."

 

 

 

Which forsaken has that habit? I recall seeing that habit from someone before, but I don't recall which character... and I don't have the books in any form that will allow me to search for it.

 

My gut feel is that the clues towards it being Cyndane are red herrings, but at the same time I won't be surprised if the character that has a habit of tapping a finger on cups turns out to be Lanfear/Cyndane.

 

Mesaana taps her lips when she's talking to Alviarin in TPoD ch 25. But lots of women tap their fingers on stuff, and tap their feet impatiently, and all that. I'm not sure we'll get very far with that. I couldn't find instances of either Lanfear/Cyndane or the Graeffalump tapping.

 

 

Mark D, this is obviously after Perrin has fought Isam over the Dreamspike, so I don't think that argument holds.

 

Actually, yoniy0, you've got that backwards. She only calls him Lews Therin once. Every other time it is al'Thor. She calls him Lews Therin only when she talks about the fact that he will sense a trap. She calls him al'Thor three times - when she initially names him, when says "Kill al'Thor," and the last time when she talks about his guards.

I stand corrected, although she only called him "Al'Thor" twice. The first time you mentioned was Isam.

 

My correction stands corrected - the first one was indeed Isam. So, the Graeffalump the unknown Chosen lady calls him "al'Thor", then "Lews Therin," then "al'Thor" again.

[MarkDiLillo]

Mark D, this is obviously after Perrin has fought Isam over the Dreamspike, so I don't think that argument holds.

 

Actually, yoniy0, you've got that backwards. She only calls him Lews Therin once. Every other time it is al'Thor. She calls him Lews Therin only when she talks about the fact that he will sense a trap. She calls him al'Thor three times - when she initially names him, when says "Kill al'Thor," and the last time when she talks about his guards.

I stand corrected, although she only called him "Al'Thor" twice. The first time you mentioned was Isam.

 

It may hold pretty firmly because Brandon mentioned that there was a small part in the middle of the scene that he had to edit. It's safe to assume that this was the part Brandon had to edit.

[yoniy0]

It may hold pretty firmly because Brandon mentioned that there was a small part in the middle of the scene that he had to edit. It's safe to assume that this was the part Brandon had to edit.

He didn't edit, he filled a hole. Perhaps, but I'm not convinced.

[dwn]

"Her" identity is less interesting to me than the real intent behind the orders to Slayer. Slayer admits being at a huge disadvantage when channelling gets involved, and nobody with a brain could think that the Red Veils--even with the two who can channel--will make much difference.

 

Add to that the odd instruction that Slayer no longer take orders from any of the Chosen. The Chosen are in line at this point; Moridin has effectively leashed Cyndane, Moghedion and Graendal, and made Demandred something of an ally. If this were part of The Plan, then all Mordin would have to say is "I need that Slayer guy for stuff, so hands off," and that would be it. Remember that in ToM, Moridin explicitly gave Slayer to Graendal for use in her Perrin baiting, which implies that Moridin already has authority over such an asset.

 

So that leaves two options:

 

This is a scheme conceived of by one of the Chosen for his or her own purposes. Some previous posts have considered Demandred or Cyndane trying to kill or warn Rand about the Red Veils.

 

The other option is that Moridin or Shadar Haran is putting something in motion that is outside of (or at least parallel to) The Plan the Chosen are working towards. If that were the case, however, there must be something more subtle behind it.

 

Considering these options, and unless an ulterior motive can be shown, I have to conclude that Cyndane sending a message/warning to Rand is the most plausible on the surface, because the whole thing is basically a foolish suicide mission that reveals and jeopardizes heretofore secret Shadow tech.

 

-- dwn

[TyphoonBlade]

I'm thinking Cyndane. She couldn't overpower rand without the help of the angreal in FOH and now she's weaker than she was before. This would fit in with her being disgusted at having to use Slayer, because she realizes she's not strong enough to face Rand herself.

 

[Wolf505]

As I mentioned, this could easily be a clever way for Cyndane/Lanfear (I'm pretty convinced it's her, which is further backed up by the fact Cyndane isn't at the Forsaken pow-wow) to help the Light by getting rid of Slayer and warning the Light about the Red Veils. I don't see how she could possibly think they could successfully kill him given his power level now and the fact he's surrounded at all times by hundreds of channelers. The Forsaken aren't stupid. Even all the living Forsaken together couldn't kill him at the Cleansing, and that was just with a handful of channelers protecting him. They should know by now only overwhelming force can defeat him, and even that didn't work at Maradon.

[MarkDiLillo]

Dont assume Lanfear suddenly is a good guy and trying to help the Light. Quite the opposite, if she turns from the Shadow (or goes so far as to turn to the Light) it will likely be an instance where she gets caught in a situation she didn't anticipate and finds herself at the spur of the moment realizing she would rather be back on the side of the Light. At this point in time, I don't think she even considers the option of turning against the Shadow - in fact I think it is flat out impossible for the Forsaken to turn against the Shadow at this stage in the game without some serious assistance. Rand or someone would have to cut their shadow cord like he did to Asmo or else Shadar Haran (or w.e his name is) would just show up and kill them. They are in too deep to just walk away IMO.

 

This could be a case of her hating Lews Therin with every inch of herself, but during her torture she would gladly take ANY assistance or ANY help that anyone could give her. When she wakes up from her torture wonderland she's not in a pleading victim mindset anymore and is back to reality.

 

It's really hard to tell honestly, but signs are pointing against Cyndane returning to the Light based on her dialogue in that prologue. It would be a shame and a waste of a perfectly awesome characer if she didn't turn IMO.

[Wolf505]

I'm not convinced she's turning to the Light, but the last Rand POV from ToM certainly seems to suggest the possibility so I won't rule it out. She could have some other reason for sending some ridiculously weak (relatively speaking) assassination team to take out Rand, but I can't figure it out.

[MarkDiLillo]

Why do you think the assassination team is so weak? Slayer is probably the greatest assassin ever...he can literally appear in Rand's tent in the middle of the night and knife him to death and vanish again without anyone ever knowing or feeling a thing. The corrupted aiel are just there to give him support so he can get in the position he needs to pull it off.

[Wolf505]

Why do you think the assassination team is so weak? Slayer is probably the greatest assassin ever...he can literally appear in Rand's tent in the middle of the night and knife him to death and vanish again without anyone ever knowing or feeling a thing. The corrupted aiel are just there to give him support so he can get in the position he needs to pull it off.

 

Slayer himself mentions how weak he is vs. channelers. The Aiel are going to be a hindrance to him, if anything since he can't just pop in out of TAR and if they channel to entire TAR in the flesh they will have to channel to leave it and Rand will feel it and I don't care how good the Red Veils are, they are not going to sneak through an entire camp full of Aiel, Asha'man and Aes Sedai to get to Rand. Not to mention Rand's plot armor... err I mean Ta'veren nature.

[Wheel of Thyme]

I imagine a clue that may point to which forsaken is in disguise may be from personal habits that are shown. You can disguise everything visually and audibly, but you forget about your own personal habits:

 

"Isam covered a grimace at the pain and bowed his head. The woman left him kneeling and took a seat at his table. She tapped a finger on the side of the tin cup for a few moments, staring at its contents, and did not speak."

 

 

 

Which forsaken has that habit? I recall seeing that habit from someone before, but I don't recall which character... and I don't have the books in any form that will allow me to search for it.

 

My gut feel is that the clues towards it being Cyndane are red herrings, but at the same time I won't be surprised if the character that has a habit of tapping a finger on cups turns out to be Lanfear/Cyndane.

 

From The Towers of Midnight, the Chapter "Questioning Intentions", hardcover book page 124. The scene is in Perrins camp, where Morgase is serving tea to Perrin and a few of his followers.

 

"Morgase continued past Masuri; the Aes Sedai liked her cup refilled only when she tapped on it lightly with a fingernail".

 

Is it coincidence that Masuri could seem so similar to the word Misery? I know there has been some speculation that there are Black Sisters in Perrins camp. Maybe this fits, maybe it does not, but Jordan did give his characters appropriate names in many occasions. Mydrraal. Murder all. Demandred. Demand dread. Masuri....misery?

[Neophyte]

Why do you think the assassination team is so weak? Slayer is probably the greatest assassin ever...he can literally appear in Rand's tent in the middle of the night and knife him to death and vanish again without anyone ever knowing or feeling a thing. The corrupted aiel are just there to give him support so he can get in the position he needs to pull it off.

 

Slayer himself mentions how weak he is vs. channelers. The Aiel are going to be a hindrance to him, if anything since he can't just pop in out of TAR and if they channel to entire TAR in the flesh they will have to channel to leave it and Rand will feel it and I don't care how good the Red Veils are, they are not going to sneak through an entire camp full of Aiel, Asha'man and Aes Sedai to get to Rand. Not to mention Rand's plot armor... err I mean Ta'veren nature.

 

Well, of course Slayer won't actually get to Rand (unless that is how his blood is supposed to be spilled on Shayol Ghul) but if I were slayer, I'd definitely use the Samma N'Sei and the Talentless as a diversionary tactic, then pop out of T'A'R' on top of Rand myself. Set them up to fail, in a way that takes the eyes of the guards/camp off of Rand for a moment - maybe have them go loudly after Perrin or something. But you're right, taking them with him for the actual strike definitely would be a hindrance.

[Dollhouse]

Who is she?

 

Cyndane/Lanfear

 

Con: This clashes with her appearance at the end of TOM; whether she was lying or telling the truth, her mission there appears at odds with the mission of this Chosen. Her figure is also more buxom - Graendal commented on her impressive bosom - and her silver hair would have been notable.

Not so. Cyndane has also been described as a mere slip of a girl and VERY slim if I recall correctly. About the hair; she was also said to be very short (probably around Egwene's height or smaller) but if this was Cyndane you could make an issue out of why this wasn't mentioned in her description either.

 

Dont assume Lanfear suddenly is a good guy and trying to help the Light. Quite the opposite, if she turns from the Shadow (or goes so far as to turn to the Light) it will likely be an instance where she gets caught in a situation she didn't anticipate and finds herself at the spur of the moment realizing she would rather be back on the side of the Light. At this point in time, I don't think she even considers the option of turning against the Shadow - in fact I think it is flat out impossible for the Forsaken to turn against the Shadow at this stage in the game without some serious assistance.

Lanfear was always selfserving true, but first of all -- Cyndane isn't Lanfear... she is Cyndane. Don't forget that it was mentioned that while the body adapted somewhat to the mind, the mind ALSO adapted to the body. In the case of Arangar it was more than a little obvious since she even seemed to be actually "hitting" on Mat.

 

Still, no need for that either. Really, if she WAS tortured all day long as Lews Therin was told, then that in itself could be incentive enough for her to decide to try to break away. But even if this is/was Cyndane's own plan, that doesn't mean that the shadow isn't aware of what she is doing... in fact just torturing her like that seems kind of odd since she could have been put to better use... so perhaps she was tortured in order for her to betray the shadow? She'd believe that she could break free of the mindtrap only for it to ensnare her at the worst possible time in order to hurt Lews?

 

Slayer won't actually get to Rand (unless that is how his blood is supposed to be spilled on Shayol Ghul).

Seeing as at least half of Slayer IS of Rand's blood this could also fulfill the prophecy if Slayer is killed by Rand or somebody else near/at Shayol Ghul.

[Neophyte]

Slayer won't actually get to Rand (unless that is how his blood is supposed to be spilled on Shayol Ghul).

Seeing as at least half of Slayer IS of Rand's blood this could also fulfill the prophecy if Slayer is killed by Rand or somebody else near/at Shayol Ghul.

 

I think I might literally be ill if the Dragon's blood on Shayol Ghul turns out to be anything other than Rand al'Thor bleeding out.

[John Snow]

Slayer won't actually get to Rand (unless that is how his blood is supposed to be spilled on Shayol Ghul).

Seeing as at least half of Slayer IS of Rand's blood this could also fulfill the prophecy if Slayer is killed by Rand or somebody else near/at Shayol Ghul.

 

I think I might literally be ill if the Dragon's blood on Shayol Ghul turns out to be anything other than Rand al'Thor bleeding out.

 

Technically, it's the rocks of Shayol Ghul, which aren't only at SG But that won't matter in all likelyhood