Caemlyn (FULL PROLOGUE SPOILERS)

[elmis]

Even if Elayne has never been that bright, having four people who are too weak to create gateways in the Palace for the sole reason to create gateways is dumbing her down to a level even she doesn't deserve. Specially with the reports of an imminent attack.

 

Also, I was hoping the whole waygate issue was dealt with. The text says that Rand has the gate under guard, and later sealed. Since there is a whole chapter in LoC that deals with the waygate in Shadar Logoth where Rand puts up a cruel ward to kill Shadowspawn, I would guess that he had put similar (but faster working) wards on the waygates that are guarded and sealed within the large cities.. specially since he has seen first hand that you can blast through a sealed waygate with the power. In my opinion this whole plot hook was settled several books ago. I might have swallowed it easier if there had been a "darkfriend" POV chapter in ToM showing Daved Hanlon or some other Andor based DF leading some Dark Ajah or Dark Asha'man to the waygate and them working on opening it, but I guess that would have ruined the the lackluster surprise of Verins letter.

 

That said, this wasn't as bad as when Cadsuane broke Semirhage and had her eat her food of the floor after a quick spanking. That was akin to watching all the Jar-Jar Binks scenes from A Phantom Menace at the same time.

 

All in all though, regardless of how we got there, I thought the Talmanes POV was good. I definitely read it as him dying there at the end, perhaps he will become a member of the Heroes of the Horn.

 

"And there, with the front of his head shaven and powdered, Talmanes the Stoic rode forth"

[Edorion]

Um, what in the heck happened to Olver? I realize Talmanes had bigger fish to fry, but it was interesting that he wasn't even mentioned after such a big deal was made of him arming himself and heading off into battle like his beloved father-figure Mat

[Neophyte]

There is a part of me that hopes he is just random dead off screen, and we'll just find out later. If he weren't a fictional character, that would make me a horrible person, I know, but I just want the Olver speculation to die so much ...

 

Barring that, having him stab Daved Hanlon in the groin would be the next best thing.

[Edorion]

There is a part of me that hopes he is just random dead off screen, and we'll just find out later. If he weren't a fictional character, that would make me a horrible person, I know, but I just want the Olver speculation to die so much ...

 

Haha

[a_lily_in_winter]

Even if Elayne has never been that bright, having four people who are too weak to create gateways in the Palace for the sole reason to create gateways is dumbing her down to a level even she doesn't deserve. Specially with the reports of an imminent attack.

 

I don't know why people cannot simply give the shadow credit. If Elayne had doubled or tripled the number of kin the shadow would have doubled or tripled the number of grey man and/or sent BA. As Verin mentioned in her letter the only way to have stopped the attack was to get rid of the way gate. The shadow has way too much resources for anything else to make a difference.

 

If I can find a fault with Elayne's planning it is with presumably not checking up on the city enough. Then again with so many travelers out there I am suprised that there isn't somone who has to go to Caemlyn for some purpose or another. In the end, though, hind sight is 20/20.

[TootThatHorn]

Even if Elayne has never been that bright, having four people who are too weak to create gateways in the Palace for the sole reason to create gateways is dumbing her down to a level even she doesn't deserve. Specially with the reports of an imminent attack.

 

I don't know why people cannot simply give the shadow credit. If Elayne had doubled or tripled the number of kin the shadow would have doubled or tripled the number of grey man and/or sent BA. As Verin mentioned in her letter the only way to have stopped the attack was to get rid of the way gate. The shadow has way too much resources for anything else to make a difference.

 

If I can find a fault with Elayne's planning it is with presumably not checking up on the city enough. Then again with so many travelers out there I am suprised that there isn't somone who has to go to Caemlyn for some purpose or another. In the end, though, hind sight is 20/20.

 

Well you are kinda making the same argument. Elayne not checking up on the city, or leaving the city with a good chance to check in with her.

[TheAngryDruid]

The more I think about it, the more the whole Caemlyn plot-line just bothers me even more and more. It has been twisted beyond reason.

 

Elayne's stupidity (only leaving 4 channeler's back). Forgetting Olver. Why didn't Rand ward the Waygate like in SL? Why didn't Verin simply give the letter to Elayne? Or tell Mat to do so? What happened to Olver? Why do the AS just sit outside of the BT and NOT travel someone back to Tar Valon, or vice versa? I mean, Nyneave does it easily enough. I realize some of those questions can be answered in the book (maybe Taim undid the wards, or another turned Asha'man), but still, the other issues would still stand.

 

I'm glad the series is being finished, and I'll certainly enjoy parts of it, hopefully large parts of it. But there have just been FAR too many WTF moments for me to still revere the series (or at least the series past LoC) as a "great" series any longer. And a lot of them have been along the Elayne/Caemlyn/Verin/Mat plotline.

[Neophyte]

Even if Elayne has never been that bright, having four people who are too weak to create gateways in the Palace for the sole reason to create gateways is dumbing her down to a level even she doesn't deserve. Specially with the reports of an imminent attack.

 

I don't know why people cannot simply give the shadow credit. If Elayne had doubled or tripled the number of kin the shadow would have doubled or tripled the number of grey man and/or sent BA. As Verin mentioned in her letter the only way to have stopped the attack was to get rid of the way gate. The shadow has way too much resources for anything else to make a difference.

 

If I can find a fault with Elayne's planning it is with presumably not checking up on the city enough. Then again with so many travelers out there I am suprised that there isn't somone who has to go to Caemlyn for some purpose or another. In the end, though, hind sight is 20/20.

 

It is far, far more difficult to assassinate 20 people simultaneously with 20 assassins and no one figuring out that there is a problem than it is to assassinate any one of four people to accomplish the same goal. Simply doubling or tripling the number of assassins doesn't do, or the Shadow (or the Seanchan!) would just order up a couple hundred assassins and end the White Tower. A larger number of targets always lowers the chance of success, even for a much higher number of assassins.

 

Hindsight is often 20/20, but good planning can make foresight pretty darned good.

[mjasghar786]

Lol some people will twist the facts so a female character is never shown in a bad light but a male one always is

If I told you to bring your whole family to a meeting and don't worry about those burglars that have been seen around the place - then you find out your place got trashed and the meeting was just a big ego boost for me and ended up achieving nothing anyway ( rand will not change his mind) how would you feel

Egghead is playing politics with nations and the millions that die can be laid squarely at her feet

Instead of her serving all, she is forcing all to serve her

As for elayne - her personality has always been sheltered princess who finds she has abilities that mean she can and must take an active fighting role - she never grew up having to understand personal risk analysis, as that's what guards and gawyn did for her

[Duskfire]

The four channeler part was annoying, but as someone pointed out, if she had 20 channelers, they all most likely would have died anyway. The Shadow wanted Camelyn, its probably a pretty major focal point for the TG. The only thing that could have stopped them was Elayne not leaving at all.

[Suttree]

Lol some people will twist the facts so a female character is never shown in a bad light but a male one always is

 

Where is Randsc to rail at the injustice of this statement? ;)

[Luckers]

Verin's BA Oaths issues were contrived.

[Neophyte]

The four channeler part was annoying, but as someone pointed out, if she had 20 channelers, they all most likely would have died anyway. The Shadow wanted Camelyn, its probably a pretty major focal point for the TG. The only thing that could have stopped them was Elayne not leaving at all.

 

I can't stress this enough - conducting 20 coordinated assassinations is not simply a matter of adding more assassins. The difficulty increases in something like an exponential way, the more assassinations your try to coordinate. We shouldn't just assume that the Shadow could have effectively gotten to a higher number of channelers, especially if at least some of them were strong enough to make a gateway on their own. The way Elayne left things, the Shadow only had to get one of the four to prevent communication.

 

In addition - just destroying the Waygate would have stopped them, too.

[Neophyte]

Verin's BA Oaths issues were contrived.

 

I agree - which makes me curious. Was this one of the things that RJ left? That scene reads more like him than Sanderson, to me, and he's been setting up Verin for that conversation for a long time - it would be odd if he didn't already have the loophole in mind. Heaven knows I love RJ's writing, but he wasn't immune from the occasional contrivance ...

 

Edit: Also, I seem to have missed how this topic got into the Caemlyn conversation ...

[mjasghar786]

Come on - we are shown how stupid AS oaths are in ease of being twisted

The BA oaths look likely to have been made to intimidate the subjects

TBH what if the oath was you can't betray until you DIE - and Verin justifies it in her head that being poisoned she IS dead so what the heck

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

[thisguy]

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

[Suttree]

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

 

All she had to do was feel as if she was in danger. That can happen wihthout being attacked.

 

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

 

She convinced herself Eggy was a DF.

[thisguy]

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

 

All she had to do was feel as if she was in danger. That can happen wihthout being attacked.

 

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

 

She convinced herself Eggy was a DF.

I had a feeling someone would say that. ;) Blagh.... it just seems so.... two seconds ago i was fine with you, i wanted to own you and make you feel like crap but now that you've stood up to me you're a df.... all right...

[Suttree]

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

 

All she had to do was feel as if she was in danger. That can happen wihthout being attacked.

 

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

 

She convinced herself Eggy was a DF.

I had a feeling someone would say that. ;) Blagh.... it just seems so.... two seconds ago i was fine with you, i wanted to own you and make you feel like crap but now that you've stood up to me you're a df.... all right...

 

Not saying it's a good reason but it is what the author gave us.

[thisguy]

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

 

All she had to do was feel as if she was in danger. That can happen wihthout being attacked.

 

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

 

She convinced herself Eggy was a DF.

I had a feeling someone would say that. ;) Blagh.... it just seems so.... two seconds ago i was fine with you, i wanted to own you and make you feel like crap but now that you've stood up to me you're a df.... all right...

 

Not saying it's a good reason but it is what the author gave us.

No. I agree with you. Just makes me grit my teeth a bit. Actually, one of my favorite scenes with Eg is when she's in the Tower, right before Elaida beats her head in, and she's reasoning with the three White Sitters.

My favorite scene with Cad is when she figures out Sem and makes her eat off the floor. Seems like when I start liking some of the women is when they get their butts kicked. ;)

[Amandera]

Or she thought that she was giving Egwene a penance. She didn't really use it as a weapon in any case, she lost consciousness because her arms were cut by a pitcher. Elaida just beat Egwene up, she didn't draw blood or anything. Three Oaths always seemed more like tools than restrictions to me. They constantly go around saying "You know AS can't lie, don't you? Well, I'm telling it to you and you know it's true." They have pretty much perfected working around oaths to the point that they are hardly oaths.

[Suttree]

Sort of the way that tylene justifies throwing attack weaves before she had been attacked herself; rather a twisting of the whole last defence of her life

 

All she had to do was feel as if she was in danger. That can happen wihthout being attacked.

 

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

 

She convinced herself Eggy was a DF.

I had a feeling someone would say that. ;) Blagh.... it just seems so.... two seconds ago i was fine with you, i wanted to own you and make you feel like crap but now that you've stood up to me you're a df.... all right...

 

Not saying it's a good reason but it is what the author gave us.

No. I agree with you. Just makes me grit my teeth a bit. Actually, one of my favorite scenes with Eg is when she's in the Tower, right before Elaida beats her head in, and she's reasoning with the three White Sitters.

My favorite scene with Cad is when she figures out Sem and makes her eat off the floor. Seems like when I start liking some of the women is when they get their butts kicked. ;)

 

Also we have to keep in mind Elaida's paranoia was being fed by her interactions with Fain. It was able to take root and worsen over time so that may have contributed to her thoughts on Eggy as well.

[thisguy]

It's also true that RJ sets us up for this. He constantly shows you how the oaths are reflected by the individual AS's beliefs. So, even though it bothers me, I understand it's not really taking much of a liberty with things on his part.

 

Hey Cem, I don't know if it wasn't used as a weapon. She threw her against he wall pretty hard a couple of times. But, that's a matter of opinion, I suppose. RJ's world is a harsh one in many ways.

[Amandera]

Maybe.

 

Everything depends on the channeler's perspective. It's a really subjective matter. For the most part she wasn't looking at Egwene, she was drinking and completely out of control. She may not have even realized Egwene was bleeding. In any case she was whipping her, which we have seen used as a punishment in the world for many times.

 

She may believe Eg was DF, too. She did yell "You're the darkfriend", if she didn't believe oaths might have prevented it.

[David Selig]

yeah, no joke. how is it that they take an oath never to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn and in defense of their lives and yet Elaida can beat the crap out of Egwene?

The Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand in LoC kept beating him up severely with the Power. Sure, Galina was black, but none of non-Blacks in the group thought this was suspicious in any way. Apparently using the Power for this is not commonly considered against the Oaths.