CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[TootThatHorn]

She meets Talmanes and is too weak to heal him.

 

And I think shes was a kinswoman.

 

Ah, I saw a screenshot that had part of Bair going through Avi's gateway that was in with Talmanes' POV.

[Necavit]

Just wondering......where is all this info coming from? ??

 

Couple Canucks got their hands on the prologue early, and others are piecing it together.

[Necavit]

She meets Talmanes and is too weak to heal him.

 

And I think shes was a kinswoman.

 

Ah, I saw a screenshot that had part of Bair going through Avi's gateway that was in with Talmanes' POV.

 

That's a Avi chapter.

[Southpaw89]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

Yeah, that weirded me out too. Though it could be his way of snubbing the others. New successful Chosen gets to be called Leader, old ones who failed get names like "wihtout forgiveness" and "last chance".

 

Incidentally, we're missing the section where Hessalam is revealed as Graendal. How does it happen, and does she seem at all broken or changed by her recent punishements?

 

 

I agree that it's prob just a way of telling the other Chosen that Taim has been the most accomplished of them all. And to piss Demandred off even more haha

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

 

Strange but perhaps it is seen by Moridin that he is a Forsaken leader (of dreadlords), not a leader of the Forsaken. I guess if you lead the troops that bring about the end of the world you lead everyone and everything in a way...

[TootThatHorn]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

 

Strange but perhaps it is seen by Moridin that he is a Forsaken leader (of dreadlords), not a leader of the Forsaken. I guess if you lead the troops that bring about the end of the world you lead everyone and everything in a way...

 

I do hope we get backstory of Taim though; has he always been a DF, which i sort of implied in another thread, or maybe he struck a deal after he got captured.

[Southpaw89]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

 

Strange but perhaps it is seen by Moridin that he is a Forsaken leader (of dreadlords), not a leader of the Forsaken. I guess if you lead the troops that bring about the end of the world you lead everyone and everything in a way...

 

I do hope we get backstory of Taim though; has he always been a DF, which i sort of implied in another thread, or maybe he struck a deal after he got captured.

 

 

My opinion is he was manipulated after being captured. He was always a "mean guy" before the capture but then after the Black Ajah got a hold of him, he was prob promised greatness if he did what he did

[Luckers]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

My opinion is he was manipulated after being captured. He was always a "mean guy" before the capture but then after the Black Ajah got a hold of him, he was prob promised greatness if he did what he did

 

...and got really lucky that Rand trusted him. He showed great skill to control the Black Tower. Greatness has obviously been delivered in the form a Forsakenhood.

[TootThatHorn]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

For sure, it could be something quick for all I care; Moridin: "Hey M'Hael remember when you were all scared about your fate and we struck a deal when I invaded your dreams?"

 

Taim: "Ya man, that was awesome."

-----

And I'm sure you're right about that, he was raised fairly early but it was kept a secret just cause Moridin likes to mess with the forsaken too, which might as well, they need to remember how their club works lol.

[Luckers]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

For sure, it could be something quick for all I care; Moridin: "Hey M'Hael remember when you were all scared about your fate and we struck a deal when I invaded your dreams?"

 

Taim: "Ya man, that was awesome."

-----

And I'm sure you're right about that, he was raised fairly early but it was kept a secret just cause Moridin likes to mess with the forsaken too, which might as well, they need to remember how their club works lol.

 

My full theory is that Taim was trained young by Ishamael and then set to training other Darkfriend channelers, accounting for both him adopting Age of Legender mannerisms and the esoteric nature of his knowledge about how using too much strength when testing a man who can channel might potentially burn him out or kill him (not the way you'd phrase it having stumbled on that reality yourself, rather than being taught it).

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

@Toot or Luckers, could you edit the first post to tell people they must read this thread first:

http://www.dragonmou...e-for-purchase/

 

To avoid random people just getting spoiled on without knowing the source:

Just wondering......where is all this info coming from? ??

[TootThatHorn]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

For sure, it could be something quick for all I care; Moridin: "Hey M'Hael remember when you were all scared about your fate and we struck a deal when I invaded your dreams?"

 

Taim: "Ya man, that was awesome."

-----

And I'm sure you're right about that, he was raised fairly early but it was kept a secret just cause Moridin likes to mess with the forsaken too, which might as well, they need to remember how their club works lol.

 

My full theory is that Taim was trained young by Ishamael and then set to training other Darkfriend channelers, accounting for both him adopting Age of Legender mannerisms and the esoteric nature of his knowledge about how using too much strength when testing a man who can channel might potentially burn him out or kill him (not the way you'd phrase it having stumbled on that reality yourself, rather than being taught it).

 

That makes total sense, maybe he grew up in the same blank as Slayer.

[TootThatHorn]

I guess the google doc is closed down now too? or Invite only? Can anyone confirm that?

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

I guess the google doc is closed down now too? or Invite only? Can anyone confirm that?

 

I dunno. Only checked it once to see what they were up to as I have the whole thing. Terez has been informally told to watch out or face copyright violation or something. Anything on there can be found on the webz if you know how to look; they just compiled it all in one place.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

Yeah, that weirded me out too. Though it could be his way of snubbing the others. New successful Chosen gets to be called Leader, old ones who failed get names like "wihtout forgiveness" and "last chance".

 

Incidentally, we're missing the section where Hessalam is revealed as Graendal. How does it happen, and does she seem at all broken or changed by her recent punishements?

 

Yeah, I saw it as that as well. I saw it as Moridin messing around with the other Chosen by making them think. At this point, he knows the world is effectively destroyed when they win, so names don't mean anything to him, as long as he follows orders.

 

Also, I would say Taim has been raised to Chosen by the DO well before this time, but Moridin hid it from the other Chosen so they wouldn't try and kill him. Now the endgame is near, and 3 out of 5 are firmly in Moridin's hand, there is less chance of that happening.

 

Some thoughts on the rest

 

 

Slayer POV: I leaped for joy when 2 of my theories turned out to be spot on (about the Red-veils, and that Slayer would be ordered to kill Rand and that will be the "other time" Perrin will have to be there for him). I thoroughly enjoyed this. It was damn creepy, and blood and bloody ashes, I actually feel sorry for poor old Isam. No wonder he is a mess. Good old red-veils. Moridin was made real badass here, walking into the lair of the Samma N'sei and killing a few of them to prove his Nae'blis-ness. Brings up a few questions, like the "restrictions" that do not apply to Moridin, but the Samma N'sei.(I like the word, not only the nice irony of the meaning, but it sounds nice and foreboding) The Chosen I think was Cyndane. The change was pretty rough, but it makes sense. Graendal failed, Moridin revoked her status, and now orders Cyndane to order Isam to kill Rand.

 

Mogheiden PoV: A great PoV, one of the best in the series, and I haven't even read the thing fully. Vague hopes that Moridin may turn back have well and truly been crushed, that is one cruel bastard. One of the worst forms of torture I could imagine. Nice that Moggy has got her own mindtrap, but the knowledge slightly dampened by the inconsistency mentioned. However, I will have to wait and see how it plays out before judging it just yet. Graendal gets pretty owned, I liked it, serves her right. She could have had Perrin dead if she bothered to do things properly, but she made a weak excuse for an attempt. Taim wasn't really a surprise, I expected something like that, but it is good to finally know. Although it raises the questions as seen above. It does put an end to A LOT of theories, for which I am glad.

 

Now, my good old Demandred, love the guy in this. Moridin threatens to give him Moggy's mindtrap, sweet. Moggy has to help him out, he has some favour left, more than anyone perhaps save Taim. This scene makes me believe more strongly that Demandred will betray the Shadow. First, he frowns down at the tortured souls. Moggy smiles, but Demandred clearly doesn't like it. He is not in this for cruelty, he wants Rand only. Second, he right out states "on one condition" to Moridin! I wonder what he will do when he finds out Moridin has no intention of letting Demandred fight Rand, or at least means him to die in the attempt. Demandred to me doesn't want to be there. He doesn't enjoy war, he never got on with the other Chosen, two of them have expressed doubts over his loyalty, and he has even doubted the DO - if only in his head.

 

I expect him to kill Taim, what with their little rivalry, and Moridin will not like that.

[TootThatHorn]

I guess the google doc is closed down now too? or Invite only? Can anyone confirm that?

 

I dunno. Only checked it once to see what they were up to as I have the whole thing. Terez has been informally told to watch out or face copyright violation or something. Anything on there can be found on the webz if you know how to look; they just compiled it all in one place.

 

Ya hence my joke in the title lol.

[TootThatHorn]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

Yeah, that weirded me out too. Though it could be his way of snubbing the others. New successful Chosen gets to be called Leader, old ones who failed get names like "wihtout forgiveness" and "last chance".

 

Incidentally, we're missing the section where Hessalam is revealed as Graendal. How does it happen, and does she seem at all broken or changed by her recent punishements?

 

 

Now, my good old Demandred, love the guy in this. Moridin threatens to give him Moggy's mindtrap, sweet. Moggy has to help him out, he has some favour left, more than anyone perhaps save Taim. This scene makes me believe more strongly that Demandred will betray the Shadow. First, he frowns down at the tortured souls. Moggy smiles, but Demandred clearly doesn't like it. He is not in this for cruelty, he wants Rand only. Second, he right out states "on one condition" to Moridin! I wonder what he will do when he finds out Moridin has no intention of letting Demandred fight Rand, or at least means him to die in the attempt. Demandred to me doesn't want to be there. He doesn't enjoy war, he never got on with the other Chosen, two of them have expressed doubts over his loyalty, and he has even doubted the DO - if only in his head.

 

I expect him to kill Taim, what with their little rivalry, and Moridin will not like that.

 

Ya, makin me think Taim may kill Rand now, or have a chance at it. That could set Demandred off on wanting to take out Taim. Perhaps Taim is the reason for Egwene's dream of Rand. So much more speculation to be had.

 

Edit: If it goes down the way you are talking, and Dem has as much of a force that is implied, it could end up being a 3-sided battle; doubt it but that would be exciting.

[Southpaw89]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

Yeah, that weirded me out too. Though it could be his way of snubbing the others. New successful Chosen gets to be called Leader, old ones who failed get names like "wihtout forgiveness" and "last chance".

 

Incidentally, we're missing the section where Hessalam is revealed as Graendal. How does it happen, and does she seem at all broken or changed by her recent punishements?

 

Yeah, I saw it as that as well. I saw it as Moridin messing around with the other Chosen by making them think. At this point, he knows the world is effectively destroyed when they win, so names don't mean anything to him, as long as he follows orders.

 

Also, I would say Taim has been raised to Chosen by the DO well before this time, but Moridin hid it from the other Chosen so they wouldn't try and kill him. Now the endgame is near, and 3 out of 5 are firmly in Moridin's hand, there is less chance of that happening.

 

Some thoughts on the rest

 

 

Slayer POV: I leaped for joy when 2 of my theories turned out to be spot on (about the Red-veils, and that Slayer would be ordered to kill Rand and that will be the "other time" Perrin will have to be there for him). I thoroughly enjoyed this. It was damn creepy, and blood and bloody ashes, I actually feel sorry for poor old Isam. No wonder he is a mess. Good old red-veils. Moridin was made real badass here, walking into the lair of the Samma N'sei and killing a few of them to prove his Nae'blis-ness. Brings up a few questions, like the "restrictions" that do not apply to Moridin, but the Samma N'sei.(I like the word, not only the nice irony of the meaning, but it sounds nice and foreboding) The Chosen I think was Cyndane. The change was pretty rough, but it makes sense. Graendal failed, Moridin revoked her status, and now orders Cyndane to order Isam to kill Rand.

 

Mogheiden PoV: A great PoV, one of the best in the series, and I haven't even read the thing fully. Vague hopes that Moridin may turn back have well and truly been crushed, that is one cruel bastard. One of the worst forms of torture I could imagine. Nice that Moggy has got her own mindtrap, but the knowledge slightly dampened by the inconsistency mentioned. However, I will have to wait and see how it plays out before judging it just yet. Graendal gets pretty owned, I liked it, serves her right. She could have had Perrin dead if she bothered to do things properly, but she made a weak excuse for an attempt. Taim wasn't really a surprise, I expected something like that, but it is good to finally know. Although it raises the questions as seen above. It does put an end to A LOT of theories, for which I am glad.

 

Now, my good old Demandred, love the guy in this. Moridin threatens to give him Moggy's mindtrap, sweet. Moggy has to help him out, he has some favour left, more than anyone perhaps save Taim. This scene makes me believe more strongly that Demandred will betray the Shadow. First, he frowns down at the tortured souls. Moggy smiles, but Demandred clearly doesn't like it. He is not in this for cruelty, he wants Rand only. Second, he right out states "on one condition" to Moridin! I wonder what he will do when he finds out Moridin has no intention of letting Demandred fight Rand, or at least means him to die in the attempt. Demandred to me doesn't want to be there. He doesn't enjoy war, he never got on with the other Chosen, two of them have expressed doubts over his loyalty, and he has even doubted the DO - if only in his head.

 

I expect him to kill Taim, what with their little rivalry, and Moridin will not like that.

 

It does make ya wonder what Demandred would do if someone else killed Rand.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

It does make ya wonder what Demandred would do if someone else killed Rand.

 

We still don't know what he is up to...it's like the prologue for Towers of Midnight lol. Now we know for sure he has armies and needs another Forsaken to lead one. Where are you Demandred?

[NitroS]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

"That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael. One of the Chosen."

 

It says this moment on, which suggests even though he might have been working the whole time he is now only officially forsaken given the time in the prologue.

 

It does make ya wonder what Demandred would do if someone else killed Rand.

 

We still don't know what he is up to...it's like the prologue for Towers of Midnight lol. Now we know for sure he has armies and needs another Forsaken to lead one. Where are you Demandred?

 

"You will know the fruits I have harvested, Moridin," Demandred said, voice low. "You will know them in bushels and droves."

 

 

This suggests that his rule is more important then taims. The only 2 things that come close in randland to the black tower is White tower and seanchan. Its definitely not the white tower, so im guessing some sort of seanchan influence or some sort of shara/isle of madmen theory.

 

Moghedian being given to demandred for assistance could this be some sort of foreshadowing for demandred using callandor with maybe hessalam or cyndane?

 

We also know that it was moridin that came looking for moraine in the tower of genj and that he for some reason is immune to there games, The snakes and foxes also lied to moraine by saying they had killed lanfear when it was moridin.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Bushels and droves. Bushes and groves. Seanchan DF Ogier?

[Terez]

I get the feeling that Moridin essentially knows what Demandred is up to, since they made this agreement and all. Demandred had to have something to offer to get that promise out of Moridin (which I assumed before now he had gotten based on the TGS prologue). If Demandred had something truly impressive going on (like, for example, an army of Sharans) then it would seem that Moridin would not be so disparaging of his accomplishments. My feeling is that, if he has a trick up his sleeve, it has to do with the mercenaries outside Caemlyn. It's just hard to make sense of the Talmanes stuff right now. Brandon also reiterated the impression Kisman gave in WH that Demandred and Taim know each other, which reinforces the idea that Demandred was giving Taim orders before Moridin returned and thus Taim started going over Demandred's head. And also explains why Demandred was wary of Taim in WH.

[NitroS]

I get the feeling that Moridin essentially knows what Demandred is up to, since they made this agreement and all. Demandred had to have something to offer to get that promise out of Moridin (which I assumed before now he had gotten based on the TGS prologue). If Demandred had something truly impressive going on (like, for example, an army of Sharans) then it would seem that Moridin would not be so disparaging of his accomplishments. My feeling is that, if he has a trick up his sleeve, it has to do with the mercenaries outside Caemlyn. It's just hard to make sense of the Talmanes stuff right now. Brandon also reiterated the impression Kisman gave in WH that Demandred and Taim know each other, which reinforces the idea that Demandred was giving Taim orders before Moridin returned and thus Taim started going over Demandred's head. And also explains why Demandred was wary of Taim in WH.

 

The first statement by moridin seems to act as if moridin knows what demandred is upto "Your playthings can wait." but then demandred says "You will know the fruits I have harvested, Moridin," Demandred said, voice low. "You will know them in bushels and droves. Just remember my requirement: I face al'Thor on the field of battle. His blood is mine, and no one else's."

 

"You will know" can either mean you will know how effective my playthings will be in the upcoming war or you will know what i have been upto all this time. Since he told moridin before that his rule is secure im thinking that moridin knows what hes upto.

 

Im wondering if we will get much of a background between demandred and taims meetings in amol or if we will just be given the information in the encyclopedia.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am really unsure about Demandred's actions now, nothing seems to fit in with what is being said. Unless it is just idle nonsense.

 

Moridin has killed and Mindtrapped 2 of the Chosen, and mindtrapped another. He has exclusive rights (as of WH anyway, and Graendal isn't likely to still possess what she did in her brief stint.) to the True Power. He is Nae'blis and the DO's Captain.

 

I cannot see him allowing Demandred to make any "requirements", especially in regards to Rand's life, Moridin has been particularly possessive of Rand's fate. Taim and Demandred seem to hate one another, just like he and Sammael did, I have trouble believing they are working together, Taim is Moridin's creature, and Kisman's PoV suggested Demandred lost any trust he had in Taim a long time ago. Moridin surely knows that.

 

Obviously they have been connected, but the Black Tower is Taim's domain. I doubt a 3rd splinter faction under Demandred would pose a threat to Moridin. I don't think Demandred's power lies in the Black Tower, after all, he says he has armies and his rule is secure. The Black Tower is not.

 

The might of Murandy - while I think it is more considerable than some think - would hardly give Moridin pause, with the hordes of Shadowspawn and others under his control. Nor would Demandred commanding Shadowspawn present any real threat, after all, any of the Chosen could order them.

 

Unless he has an army coming from Seandar or through the Waste from Shara, he has to have some other trick up his sleeve, like a sa'angreal or ter'angreal (perhaps many).

 

Of course, it could be that the Dark One has restricted Moridin and has a great trust in Demandred, he seems to be the 2IC, as the DO turned to him when Ishamael had died. However, it would be a huge letdown and the scene would not fit. Demandred can't be bluffing, nor do I think Moridin is willing to give him leeway, unless he presented a real threat.

 

Demandred has SOMETHING special, something the Shadow desperately wants that Moridin is willing (or forced) to suffer the insult of having "requirements" set.