CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Aqua Weaver]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Graendal's current status in regards to whether she or not she is mindtrapped and if so who holds it. I was hoping that somebody with possesion of the complete prologue could definitively answer this. Thanks in advance.

 

Aqua

 

There is no mention of Graendal being mindtrapped in the prologue. The Moggyrachnid has been given her own mindtrap by Moridin (which apparently now allows her to channel in proximity to it without discomfort or danger). But Moridin is only mentioned as wearing one other mindtrap - apparently Cyndane's. Graendal's punishment, it seems, was to be killed (likely after being ... abused ... by Shaidar Haran) and transmigrated into a body utterly at odds with her sensual desires, and to be renamed Hessalam (which means "without forgiveness"). Hence, her new unofficial official (in my head) title, the Graeffalump.

 

Well it's nice to know insult wasn't added to injury (though it would have been sheer irony and poetically just).

 

Now, I know this has been discussed at length before and it is not my intention to start a flame war or derail this thread, but I must say that, even though we are dealing with truly evil characters doing really bad things, I find that the continual use of rape as a form of punishment, (Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal, etc.) to be unfortunate to say the least. Though on the other hand, using sexual violence as a form of control and domination ( over females and males i.e. people) is certainly one of the greatest and oldest evils in the world and its use makes sense in that regard (the Dark One being an old and great evil).

[MarkDiLillo]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Graendal's current status in regards to whether she or not she is mindtrapped and if so who holds it. I was hoping that somebody with possesion of the complete prologue could definitively answer this. Thanks in advance.

 

Aqua

 

There is no mention of Graendal being mindtrapped in the prologue. The Moggyrachnid has been given her own mindtrap by Moridin (which apparently now allows her to channel in proximity to it without discomfort or danger). But Moridin is only mentioned as wearing one other mindtrap - apparently Cyndane's. Graendal's punishment, it seems, was to be killed (likely after being ... abused ... by Shaidar Haran) and transmigrated into a body utterly at odds with her sensual desires, and to be renamed Hessalam (which means "without forgiveness"). Hence, her new unofficial official (in my head) title, the Graeffalump.

 

Well it's nice to know insult wasn't added to injury (though it would have been sheer irony and poetically just).

 

Now, I know this has been discussed at length before and it is not my intention to start a flame war or derail this thread, but I must say that, even though we are dealing with truly evil characters doing really bad things, I find that the continual use of rape as a form of punishment, (Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal, etc.) to be unfortunate to say the least. Though on the other hand, using sexual violence as a form of control and domination ( over females and males i.e. people) is certainly one of the greatest and oldest evils in the world and its use makes sense in that regard (the Dark One being an old and great evil).

 

Nowhere is it implied that Graendal was raped. We can only guess.

[Guest Stefan Koenders]

I can't take it anymore, I want to read the prologue right now. Has anyone outside the US, and in particular in the UK, found a way to get it? Legally of course, and preferably a way that supports Dragonmount.

 

You can simply make up an US adress and it'll work, it did for me anyway.

[he who comes with a bong]

Hey lets not start talking about rape again. It will only lead to turmoil and strife an a thread that goes on the wayside.

[Aqua Weaver]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Graendal's current status in regards to whether she or not she is mindtrapped and if so who holds it. I was hoping that somebody with possesion of the complete prologue could definitively answer this. Thanks in advance.

 

Aqua

 

There is no mention of Graendal being mindtrapped in the prologue. The Moggyrachnid has been given her own mindtrap by Moridin (which apparently now allows her to channel in proximity to it without discomfort or danger). But Moridin is only mentioned as wearing one other mindtrap - apparently Cyndane's. Graendal's punishment, it seems, was to be killed (likely after being ... abused ... by Shaidar Haran) and transmigrated into a body utterly at odds with her sensual desires, and to be renamed Hessalam (which means "without forgiveness"). Hence, her new unofficial official (in my head) title, the Graeffalump.

 

Well it's nice to know insult wasn't added to injury (though it would have been sheer irony and poetically just).

 

Now, I know this has been discussed at length before and it is not my intention to start a flame war or derail this thread, but I must say that, even though we are dealing with truly evil characters doing really bad things, I find that the continual use of rape as a form of punishment, (Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal, etc.) to be unfortunate to say the least. Though on the other hand, using sexual violence as a form of control and domination ( over females and males i.e. people) is certainly one of the greatest and oldest evils in the world and its use makes sense in that regard (the Dark One being an old and great evil).

 

Nowhere is it implied that Graendal was raped. We can only guess.

 

It would be nice if this were not the case, though I felt it was strongly implied (he was smiling that creepy smile and it is in his modus operandi). I guess we will have to wait for a POV from Graendal or someone in the know to find out.

 

Aqua

[PaulChauvet]

I actually wonder if the body she's in is the DO or Moridin? Did the DO just say "get me a body for Graendal" (and Moridin thought it was appropriate for Heffalump Hessalam) or did the DO do it?

 

It seems more like a Moridin thing though I guess we don't have any real sense of 'personality' of the DO.

[Manscher]

Regarding the Forsaken giving Isam his orders, considering how she's staring down at her reflection, ever considered it might be Graendal, and not Lanfear?

[PaulChauvet]

Regarding the Forsaken giving Isam his orders, considering how she's staring down at her reflection, ever considered it might be Graendal, and not Lanfear?

 

I think Isam would have commented on her appearance if so, though that's not definitive proof. I also don't think that Graendal ever had the hatred displayed there for Lews Therin.

[Neophyte]

Regarding the Forsaken giving Isam his orders, considering how she's staring down at her reflection, ever considered it might be Graendal, and not Lanfear?

 

I think Isam would have commented on her appearance if so, though that's not definitive proof. I also don't think that Graendal ever had the hatred displayed there for Lews Therin.

 

She was clearly disguised. As Isam thought to himself: "She was clearly in disguise, then. Why bother hiding herself here?"

 

Only one answer - she was revolted by her new Graeffalump self.

[Manscher]

Exactly, though I suppose it might have a bit of a time line clash, considering this POV was written by RJ and thereby a part of the "original" prologue for the 3 books.

[MarkDiLillo]

Exactly, though I suppose it might have a bit of a time line clash, considering this POV was written by RJ and thereby a part of the "original" prologue for the 3 books.

 

Agree. I think she was the obvious answer...Cyndane.

[yoniy0]

I can't take it anymore, I want to read the prologue right now. Has anyone outside the US, and in particular in the UK, found a way to get it? Legally of course, and preferably a way that supports Dragonmount.

The only way to do both of these things together is to find someone in the US to get the thing for you.

[Neophyte]

Exactly, though I suppose it might have a bit of a time line clash, considering this POV was written by RJ and thereby a part of the "original" prologue for the 3 books.

 

Agree. I think she was the obvious answer...Cyndane.

 

Cyndane is currently the "most punished one." I doubt she is at liberty to move about, or would have the need to disguise herself if she could.

[MarkDiLillo]

Exactly, though I suppose it might have a bit of a time line clash, considering this POV was written by RJ and thereby a part of the "original" prologue for the 3 books.

 

Agree. I think she was the obvious answer...Cyndane.

 

Cyndane is currently the "most punished one." I doubt she is at liberty to move about, or would have the need to disguise herself if she could.

 

She was moving around freely before and was obviously being punished then as well though.

[Neophyte]

Regarding the Forsaken giving Isam his orders, considering how she's staring down at her reflection, ever considered it might be Graendal, and not Lanfear?

 

I think Isam would have commented on her appearance if so, though that's not definitive proof. I also don't think that Graendal ever had the hatred displayed there for Lews Therin.

 

Rand al'Thor destroyed her refuge at Natrin's Barrow. That was the last time that things were going Graendal's way. It wouldn't be too difficult for her to be extremely angry at Rand al'Thor. The fiasco with Perrin would never have happened if al'Thor hadn't balefired her palace in the woods. It would be very simple for her to rationalize blaming that whole thing on Rand al'Thor.

[Mark Al Thor]

Im wondering why she referred to him as Al Thor as opposed to Lews Therin. Just a thought.

[MarkDiLillo]

Im wondering why she referred to him as Al Thor as opposed to Lews Therin. Just a thought.

 

She referred to him as Lews Therin later in the same segment. Seems she only referred to him as al'Thor during the command to kill him.

[MarkDiLillo]

Also - the fact that Avi mentioned whats-her-name...strange and unexplained woman she met in the waste that helped her....implies that the truth of whoever it was will eventually be uncovered and it's not just a quick fix type of thing some people were worried about. I now don't think that Verin fits the bill as a culprit. I'm thinking Cyndane is the only realistic option at this point unless it ends up being something completely out of left field. Lanfear disguises herself often throughout the series, is skilled enough with the power to accomplish everything that was needed, has a habbit of mysteriously vanishing in the same method, and has the experience with both the old Aiel and new Aiel to give those answers. I don't see who else it could have been aside from Cyndane or Moghedien. I rule all of the men out because we have not seen evidence of disguing your voice thus far in the series.

 

The question that doesn't make sense would be why Cyndane would do something like this and if it is her then is it an action provoked by Moridin.

[Guest Jesse Brown]

Cyndane has very strong reasons to hate both Moridin and Rand. Perhaps she knows something of their link, and believes that killing one will also kill the other?

[PaulChauvet]

She was clearly disguised. As Isam thought to himself: "She was clearly in disguise, then. Why bother hiding herself here?"

 

Only one answer - she was revolted by her new Graeffalump self.

Bah - missed that. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

BTW... That name is really going to stick with me throughout the book once I get it. I swear, even in my reread I'm going to think of that every time I see Greandal

 

Cyndane has very strong reasons to hate both Moridin and Rand. Perhaps she knows something of their link, and believes that killing one will also kill the other?

That's a very good point that I hadn't considered... Hmmm...

[TootThatHorn]

So it was Moridin. Isam had not been there to witness the Chosen’s first visit to the Town, but he had heard. The Samma N’Sei had thought Moridin one of the Talentless until he demonstrated differently. The constraints that held them did not hold him.

 

I'm curious what the above part means from the Isam pov. I guess it sounds like the ones that can channel can't kill each other?

 

Also this was really an eye opening pov as far as perspective. Before he was just Slayer, but now there feels like a full distinction between Luc and Isam; could be really interesting to see later.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

The constraints that held them did not hold him.

 

I think you have in fact Tooted something of importance...I feel this is quite relevant. My first guess was that Moridin has access to the True Power and used it to prove his alpha dog status. If this is the case though, then the dark eyes of the Red-Veils are not saa. It is mentioned anyways that Moridin now has exclusive access to the True Power anyways so this could fit.

[yoniy0]

The constraints that held them did not hold him.

Moghedien told us that channeling in Thakan'dar is forbidden by the DO. Perhaps some of that restriction extends to the Town (say, drawing too deeply on the Source).

 

In that regard, it's interesting to note that on the two times Rand came close to directly confronting the DO, he was drawing as deeply as he could on the Source while in or near the Blight. Coincidental? There must be a reason why the DO forbids it, after all.

[TootThatHorn]

The constraints that held them did not hold him.

Moghedien told us that channeling in Thakan'dar is forbidden by the DO. Perhaps some of that restriction extends to the Town (say, drawing too deeply on the Source).

 

In that regard, it's interesting to note that on the two times Rand came close to directly confronting the DO, he was drawing as deeply as he could on the Source while in or near the Blight. Coincidental? There must be a reason why the DO forbids it, after all.

 

That sounds plausible too, I thought it something like the Samma N'Sei can kill whoever they like, except the ones that can channel, as they are far too valuable. However Moridin may kill whoever he likes.

 

But ya, it could have been that Moridin strolled in to town, they went after him with knives thinking he was nobody, and he let them know who he is in no uncertain terms.

[Manscher]

The constraints that held them did not hold him.

Moghedien told us that channeling in Thakan'dar is forbidden by the DO. Perhaps some of that restriction extends to the Town (say, drawing too deeply on the Source).

 

In that regard, it's interesting to note that on the two times Rand came close to directly confronting the DO, he was drawing as deeply as he could on the Source while in or near the Blight. Coincidental? There must be a reason why the DO forbids it, after all.

 

Worth noting is that in both cases, he is also described as channeling Light