Mazrim Taim - Darkfriend

[Darksmoon]

I have read a lot of posts about Mazrim Taim being a darkfriend and having been turned to the dark by 13 x 13 method.

 

What if he was a darkfriend from the start? He has been channeling for 8 years without going crazy. From what we know that is a ver y long time as Rand begins showing signs in less than 2 years as do several of the Ashaman.

 

Perhaps Taim made a deal with the DO so that taint wouldn't touch him. The DO told him to be a false Dragon to help break the land apart and then saved him after he was captured as he could still be important.

[Hagazussa]

8 years is a long time for a male channeler to stay sane, but it cold happen, some go insane immediately while others last for a good long while so Taim do not need to have been a Darkfriend to have lasted that long, he could just have been lucky, also Taim while he is definitely not raving mad do things that are not quite normal to say it like that, so he might be affected by the taint but just not to a very large degree.

[Diamondmask]

I suspect Taim was always inclined to be a DF - he enjoys power and violence way too much. When he turned up, seeking Rand out was suspicious - he has to have crossed over to the DO to stay sane. And his fake 'rescue's' of Rand when in fact, I think were his own plots, or at least he helped in orchestrating them. The Grey Man being a prime example. The LoC hints very much at this as it bookends the whole create chaos command of the DO. Besides, Taim is just a nasty piece of work and I want him to get his in a messy and painful way.

 

What gets me is why the very paranoid Rand refuses to see how Taim is subverting the Black Tower.

[Diamondmask]

Had a mishap with posting here. It came out twice. Sorry guys. The Dark One interfering again.

[MasterAblar]

I suspect Taim was always inclined to be a DF - he enjoys power and violence way too much. When he turned up, seeking Rand out was suspicious - he has to have crossed over to the DO to stay sane. And his fake 'rescue's' of Rand when in fact, I think were his own plots, or at least he helped in orchestrating them. The Grey Man being a prime example. The LoC hints very much at this as it bookends the whole create chaos command of the DO. Besides, Taim is just a nasty piece of work and I want him to get his in a messy and painful way.

 

What gets me is why the very paranoid Rand refuses to see how Taim is subverting the Black Tower.

 

I've always thought that perhaps Rand, through LTT, feels responsible for the Taint and the tragedy that came over the male channellers. Perhaps he's simply in denial that he's messed up again when he wanted the male channellers to rise again, and therefore subconsciously refuses to confront his failure.

 

Or, he could just be a moron. That works too.

[Durinax]

rand ignores taim off the start because he is the only one who can do as he wants, then when Taim does start doing stuff, he is already ingrained, and Rand has no evidence. As per Rands own laws he requires evidence

[Hagazussa]

I suspect Taim was always inclined to be a DF - he enjoys power and violence way too much. When he turned up, seeking Rand out was suspicious - he has to have crossed over to the DO to stay sane.

 

Or perhaps his love of violence and power is a sign of madness, who is to say that the taint did not twist him in such a way. Also how is it suspicious that Taim went to Rand, he was in a pretty bad situation, after all it had been pretty much proven that Taim was not the Dragon, and the Aes Sedai was after him, with Rand he could be a high ranking officer in the Dragon's army and have power and glory as well as some protection, it seams like a logical thing to do to me.

[Darksmoon]

Taim is a glory seeker, and is seeking to tie his sail to the Dragon Reborn to have as much power as possible. Also Rand offers protection to all male channelers which would be appealing if Aes Sedai are hunting for you.

 

Taim is visibly disturbed each time Rand mentions the foresaken. All of the darkfriends (at least every one that has encountered one) fear the foresaken, of course all people should fear them. Seems like many of the heroes of the series do not should this fear.

[Hagazussa]

I think that any male channeler would be willing to ally with anyone and do about anything to avoid being taken down by the Aes Sedai for what they do with male channelers at the Tower is not described at exactly pleasant, so even if Taim where only looking for a way to avoid that fate it would make sense for him to join up with Rand, add to that the potential for power and glory that might be in store for Taim if he join up with Rand it makes every sense in the world that he would come to Rand and seek out an alliance, I do not think that move indicate that Taim is a Darkfriend nor do it indicate that he is not a Darkfriend, it is a logical choice in either case.

 

Now I think that there are things that indicate that Taim is with the Shadow and things that indicate that he is not, I do not think that there is any conclusive evidence either way, personally I hope he is not a Darkfriend since he is my favorite character. :)

[Orderofolde]

8 years is a long time for a male channeler to stay sane, but it cold happen, some go insane immediately while others last for a good long while so Taim do not need to have been a Darkfriend to have lasted that long, he could just have been lucky, also Taim while he is definitely not raving mad do things that are not quite normal to say it like that, so he might be affected by the taint but just not to a very large degree.

Has he shown even the slightest hint of insanity or odd quirks? Apart from watching Elayne undress?

[Hagazussa]

Has he shown even the slightest hint of insanity or odd quirks? Apart from watching Elayne undress?

 

Watching Elayne undress is not odd, Taim is a man and she is described as very beautiful, Taim is after all described as close as a child friendly series will allow as being rather, what shall we say, perverted, or as my hubby like to say a dirty dirty mage. To watch a pretty girl undress that is not really a quirk.

 

I would say that some of his tendency for power hunger, bravado and tendency for violence can be signs of the insanity, other than that there have not been that many signs but those things are.

[BFG]

When he first goes to Basheres camp isn't there a bit where he doesn't recognise Taim.

 

Also assuming that he was turned and wasn't always a DF then it seems to me that the most logical time to turn him was when the BA launched their rescue. Since that's before his first introduction I'm not sure that we'll ever know the difference (assuming that that's true).

[Darksmoon]

Bashere did not recognize Taim and Taim stated it was because he shaved off his beard.

[Hagazussa]

Removing facial hair as well as long months on the run can change someone's appearance pretty drastically, after all Taim was captured, he escaped and he was running around trying to get away from the Aes Sedai, he mention that he once was given some food and water by a farmer who still thought he was the Dragon, obviously he was reduced to relying on the kindness of strangers, that might affect someone's appearance rather badly and make them quite unrecognizable.

[Suttree]

Removing facial hair as well as long months on the run can change someone's appearance pretty drastically, after all Taim was captured, he escaped and he was running around trying to get away from the Aes Sedai, he mention that he once was given some food and water by a farmer who still thought he was the Dragon, obviously he was reduced to relying on the kindness of strangers, that might affect someone's appearance rather badly and make them quite unrecognizable.

 

Indeed, we know Rand was off on his age by a decade from how worn his escape made him.

[TootThatHorn]

Removing facial hair as well as long months on the run can change someone's appearance pretty drastically, after all Taim was captured, he escaped and he was running around trying to get away from the Aes Sedai, he mention that he once was given some food and water by a farmer who still thought he was the Dragon, obviously he was reduced to relying on the kindness of strangers, that might affect someone's appearance rather badly and make them quite unrecognizable.

 

I get that he was helped by a farmer and what not but that bugs me that a male channeler is starving while on the run. How hard could it be to grab a stray animal with air and cook it with fire? Or dehumidify the air for drinking water? These guys need a crash course in channeling to survive in the wild.

[thisguy]

Am I not remember this correctly: When Rand goes hunting for renegade Ashaman in Far Madding, doesn't he over hear two of them talking about Taim in a way that shows that he's a DF or at least a renegade? It may have been the illusion of the two walking upstairs that Fain sends when Rand goes into the boot makers shop to kill two of them. But, I'm almost positive he hears something along those lines.

[Durinax]

Am I not remember this correctly: When Rand goes hunting for renegade Ashaman in Far Madding, doesn't he over hear two of them talking about Taim in a way that shows that he's a DF or at least a renegade? It may have been the illusion of the two walking upstairs that Fain sends when Rand goes into the boot makers shop to kill two of them. But, I'm almost positive he hears something along those lines.

I believe Fain does something like that with his illusion, but if that was the only thing indicating that, it has to be taken with a lot of salt since Fain thrives on division and creating division to get what he wants

[MasterAblar]

Removing facial hair as well as long months on the run can change someone's appearance pretty drastically, after all Taim was captured, he escaped and he was running around trying to get away from the Aes Sedai, he mention that he once was given some food and water by a farmer who still thought he was the Dragon, obviously he was reduced to relying on the kindness of strangers, that might affect someone's appearance rather badly and make them quite unrecognizable.

 

I get that he was helped by a farmer and what not but that bugs me that a male channeler is starving while on the run. How hard could it be to grab a stray animal with air and cook it with fire? Or dehumidify the air for drinking water? These guys need a crash course in channeling to survive in the wild.

 

And risk the Aes Sedai picking up his trail? He was a wanted man, trying to stay low.

[GYLD]

Am I not remember this correctly: When Rand goes hunting for renegade Ashaman in Far Madding, doesn't he over hear two of them talking about Taim in a way that shows that he's a DF or at least a renegade? It may have been the illusion of the two walking upstairs that Fain sends when Rand goes into the boot makers shop to kill two of them. But, I'm almost positive he hears something along those lines.

I believe Fain does something like that with his illusion, but if that was the only thing indicating that, it has to be taken with a lot of salt since Fain thrives on division and creating division to get what he wants

 

It is not the illusions that that incriminate Taim. Moments before Kisman is slashed by Fain we have a POV of his where he is reflecting upon the individual orders given to him by Taim, Demandred, and Moridin. Taim in no uncertain terms ordered Kisman to kill Rand.

[Masema]

I think that at this point he is a darkfriend. Weather or not he was before, I can't really say. When we first met him he didn't seem all that evil. But when the renegade Ashaman said something like "The M'Hael said to kill him" it was my first indication that he might be. Also there is the situation in the black tower itself, with Taim and Logain's respective factions.

 

"And he saw what Norley had seen. Something was deeply wrong, something not-quite right inside those eyes. This didn't seem to be a man, but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin" - Ch.56 ToM

 

This quote isn't about Taim, but about an Ashaman named Mezar, who had recently started "private training" with Taim. It seems that all of those favored by Taim might be turning. So if we're going with the 13x13 theory here, I have my own bit to add to that. I was thinking while reading that bit that if Taim was turning people to the shadow using that method, then maybe he found a way to hide the fades among the Ashaman, like an inverted mirror of mists. Think about it, how would you be able to hide 13 fades in the BT. Or, it could simply be the effect of one forced to follow the shadow against his will. All of this aside, I think that it would be impossible for any of this to be happening in the BT without his knowledge.

[TootThatHorn]

I'm curious that there is question as whether Taim is a DF. I've been more than suspicious since he smugly questioned Rand about not having the knowledge to test for a man to channel; it was wildly suspicious that he had a seal; and extremely suspect how long he channeled without going insane. I don't feel he shows any signs of taint induced madness, unless it can include wild amounts of arrogance.

 

As far as hiding myrdraal goes however, you don't need anything more than a dark corner for them to show up when needed. They can shadow travel so you have them show up as needed; more importantly I would be asking that if they are around what keeps them from being sensed by any AS or warders that around. Is it bad timing? Blocked by the SG rock? Warded? Hard to say, but you would think if AS could sense shadowspawn like Moiraine and Lan could especially in EotW you would think the SG rock would give off some kind of dark residue as well, you would think it is saturated with evil and radiating it.

[Hagazussa]

I get that he was helped by a farmer and what not but that bugs me that a male channeler is starving while on the run. How hard could it be to grab a stray animal with air and cook it with fire? Or dehumidify the air for drinking water? These guys need a crash course in channeling to survive in the wild.

 

Like another poster mentioned, this would be very risky since while female Channelers can not see the weaves made by men the Reds do have their ways in tracking down male channelers and it would not be wise to take any chances. If you had 13 angry mages hunting for you wanting to rip out spiritual parts of your anatomy would you risk it to fry something nearby with fur for a meal?

 

It is not the illusions that that incriminate Taim. Moments before Kisman is slashed by Fain we have a POV of his where he is reflecting upon the individual orders given to him by Taim, Demandred, and Moridin. Taim in no uncertain terms ordered Kisman to kill Rand.

 

We know that Taim is not exactly loyal to Rand. Taim is an opportunist he would roast babies for lunch and have his way with their grandmothers if he thought it would gain him power and glory, I have no doubt that he want Rand dead. Taim used Rand but now that he have much of his status back and quite a few Ashaman at his back he would probably gladly dispose of Rand to get the glory for himself, this however do not prove that he is a Darkfriend, someone do not need to be a Darkfriend to be ruthless and opportunistic.

 

I think that at this point he is a darkfriend. Weather or not he was before, I can't really say. When we first met him he didn't seem all that evil. But when the renegade Ashaman said something like "The M'Hael said to kill him" it was my first indication that he might be. Also there is the situation in the black tower itself, with Taim and Logain's respective factions.

 

I am not so sure, when Taim fist meet Rand he boasts that he destroyed some innocent people's minds with Compulsion and made them into mindless slaves, that might not win him any Mr Nice Mage awards. To me Taim have seen just a ruthless the whole time, is sending a man to kill a rival, even if that rival is someone he have sworn fealty to really any more evil than destroying someone's mind and make them into just slaves to his whim?

 

"And he saw what Norley had seen. Something was deeply wrong, something not-quite right inside those eyes. This didn't seem to be a man, but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin" - Ch.56 ToM

 

This quote isn't about Taim, but about an Ashaman named Mezar, who had recently started "private training" with Taim. It seems that all of those favored by Taim might be turning.

 

Or it might be Compulsion which we know Taim have no qualms about using left and right, used to much that will break down a person's will and mind until they are unable to think for themselves, that could easily explain the look in Mezar's eyes. I am not saying he could not have been tuned to the shadow but to me that sound more like someone who have been reduced to a mere puppet through overuse of Compulsion.

 

So if we're going with the 13x13 theory here, I have my own bit to add to that. I was thinking while reading that bit that if Taim was turning people to the shadow using that method, then maybe he found a way to hide the fades among the Ashaman, like an inverted mirror of mists. Think about it, how would you be able to hide 13 fades in the BT. Or, it could simply be the effect of one forced to follow the shadow against his will. All of this aside, I think that it would be impossible for any of this to be happening in the BT without his knowledge.

 

I do not think it would be that easy to hide a bunch of fades on the Black Tower, and why would he need to, as another poster have pointed out, if your theory is correct the fades could be anywhere and as long as Taim made sure to have a dark, shadowy corner somewhere they could just come when he called for them or even at a previously appointed time and they could be far away and not risk detection when they where not needed. There is no need to smuggle and hide creatures that can appear out of shadows wherever they feel like.

 

Also would it not be wiser to do do the turning to the shadow thing somewhere else than the Black Tower? There are plenty of folks there who can sense Shadow Spawn and all Taim need is to make up an excuse to leave the camp for a moment, bring whoever he wanted to shadowfy with him and have it done somewhere else and then just return to camp like nothing ever happened and ask what's for dinner.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The Fades would be sensed by both the AS and the AM. Easier to Travel with the victim to the Fades.

 

Taim did not use Compulsion on the Saladeans.

[TootThatHorn]

The Fades would be sensed by both the AS and the AM. Easier to Travel with the victim to the Fades.

 

Taim did not use Compulsion on the Saladeans.

 

Travel from where though? You can't use a gateway and do we have any reason to think that Taim is leaving the BT grounds? Or that he has control of the Dreamspike(this one I'm actually curious of because I can't remember)? Is it not known that he is holding "special training" in his palace?

 

Edit: And if there is still question whether he is a DF we shouldn't know about his knowledge of the dreamspike