Chapter with many PoVs.

[flinn]

I read in a thread on here about Brandon saying he would have a chapter that had alot of different POVs and now I cant find it.

It made me think of a chapter by Joe Abercrombie in his book "The Heroes". If you guys would like to see a fine example of this technique you can go to the Joe Abercrombie webpage, click on books, click on The Heroes, then click on excerpt. If you have not read Joe Abercrombie, I certainly recommend him, this chapter will not be a real spoiler. I would provide a link straight to the excerpt, but I dont know the link rules and dont want to break any.

[thisguy]

That's like the cleansing saidan chapter. Rand's pove, Cadsuane, all the forsaken minus moridin, and at least 3 or 4 more: Eben, Ezra (or whatever her name is), Verin... I think Alivia.

[Neophyte]

I read in a thread on here about Brandon saying he would have a chapter that had alot of different POVs and now I cant find it.

It made me think of a chapter by Joe Abercrombie in his book "The Heroes". If you guys would like to see a fine example of this technique you can go to the Joe Abercrombie webpage, click on books, click on The Heroes, then click on excerpt. If you have not read Joe Abercrombie, I certainly recommend him, this chapter will not be a real spoiler. I would provide a link straight to the excerpt, but I dont know the link rules and dont want to break any.

 

The quote from Brandon is here. There are apparently "Upwards of 80" PoVs in that single chapter, which would almost have to be the climax of Tarmon Gai'don. I do not know if that count includes repeat PoVs (i.e. separate sections from the same character) or if we actually get 80+ different characters' perspectives on events in a single chapter.

 

For comparison, the only comparable chapter is With the Choedan Kal, where Rand cleanses the taint (as thisguy points out) in Winter's Heart. That chapter has 21 PoV sections from 11 different characters' perspectives (Rand al'Thor, Elza Penfell, Barmellin, Timna, Cyndane, Cadsuane Melaidhrin, Demandred, Osan'gar, Verin Mathwin, Eben Hopwil, and Moghedien) and 1 semi-omniscient perspective.

 

The 80+ PoV chapter will either be a masterpiece or a nightmare - it's hard for me to see it being anywhere in the middle. And of course, I'm hoping for masterpiece.

[thisguy]

80+ People!!!! I better keep a notebook ready!

 

"Who said that again?"

[slatanic1]

The 80+ PoV chapter will either be a masterpiece or a nightmare - it's hard for me to see it being anywhere in the middle. And of course, I'm hoping for masterpiece.

 

Couldn't have said it better.....I completely agree.

[TootThatHorn]

These have been my favorite chapters in the past. I figured also that it would be at the end of TG. As long as it's not like the LotR movies where you need to pee but the damn thing just refuses to end.

[thisguy]

These have been my favorite chapters in the past. I figured also that it would be at the end of TG. As long as it's not like the LotR movies where you need to pee but the damn thing just refuses to end.

You can always take the book into the bathroom. You know how many people are gonna poop their pants a TG? A lot. ;)

[flinn]

I read in a thread on here about Brandon saying he would have a chapter that had alot of different POVs and now I cant find it.

It made me think of a chapter by Joe Abercrombie in his book "The Heroes". If you guys would like to see a fine example of this technique you can go to the Joe Abercrombie webpage, click on books, click on The Heroes, then click on excerpt. If you have not read Joe Abercrombie, I certainly recommend him, this chapter will not be a real spoiler. I would provide a link straight to the excerpt, but I dont know the link rules and dont want to break any.

 

The quote from Brandon is here. There are apparently "Upwards of 80" PoVs in that single chapter, which would almost have to be the climax of Tarmon Gai'don. I do not know if that count includes repeat PoVs (i.e. separate sections from the same character) or if we actually get 80+ different characters' perspectives on events in a single chapter.

 

For comparison, the only comparable chapter is With the Choedan Kal, where Rand cleanses the taint (as thisguy points out) in Winter's Heart. That chapter has 21 PoV sections from 11 different characters' perspectives (Rand al'Thor, Elza Penfell, Barmellin, Timna, Cyndane, Cadsuane Melaidhrin, Demandred, Osan'gar, Verin Mathwin, Eben Hopwil, and Moghedien) and 1 semi-omniscient perspective.

 

The 80+ PoV chapter will either be a masterpiece or a nightmare - it's hard for me to see it being anywhere in the middle. And of course, I'm hoping for masterpiece.

 

Yeah I actually forgot about that. I knew there were alot of PoVs but I didnt realize it was all one chapter.

[joeron bigelow]

I think this whole Wheel of Time story seems to lack those nerve wracking chapters that other stories have. What I mean and lack the writing skill to describe are those "plot twists" that screw over the main characters in every book.

 

To best describe it, how many times has someone been betrayed by a darkfriend and then needed saving? Ignore Elayne for this argument since she puts herself in harms way.

 

I'm talking about how Mat got ambushed by Melindhra in FoH after revealing that Rand was going to Illian. That is probably the only point in the whole epic where a DF hid their intentions.

 

Let me compare - so like in Harry Potter - no one thought that Scabbers would be evil, and that nearly led to the books ending in book 3. haha.

 

IMO, the WoT series is missing that element, whether its good or bad, i dont know.

 

But as I read there will be a chapter with 80 PoVs...do you think its finally time we have those epitomes like "oh i never thought so and so would be a DF" or "i cant believe it, what are they going to do now, will they get there in time to save him?"

 

Ok maybe like in The Dark Knight - how when Batman was kicking Banes ass and then poof gets blindsided by...(spoiler) that chick. You would have never thought that.

 

I only say this because in all the WoT books, we are presented with evil characters and know full well that they will "hurt" the main guys. Liandrin, Elaida (to a point), J Carridin, Davlen, Shiane, Fain...where Verin and Ingtar are DFs but dont do much harm. Melindhra was the only one to "stab someone in the back" figuratively...haha.

 

Sorry for the length, just venting.

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

It's hard to do Plot twists around people who twist the threads around them. I mean yea there weren't many non- ta'veran who had plot twist but we were still suprised by some of the people that were dark friends. I can't think of many right now but that may be because i just ate dinner lol.

[TheAngryDruid]

I think this whole Wheel of Time story seems to lack those nerve wracking chapters that other stories have. What I mean and lack the writing skill to describe are those "plot twists" that screw over the main characters in every book.

 

To best describe it, how many times has someone been betrayed by a darkfriend and then needed saving? Ignore Elayne for this argument since she puts herself in harms way.

 

I'm talking about how Mat got ambushed by Melindhra in FoH after revealing that Rand was going to Illian. That is probably the only point in the whole epic where a DF hid their intentions.

 

Let me compare - so like in Harry Potter - no one thought that Scabbers would be evil, and that nearly led to the books ending in book 3. haha.

 

IMO, the WoT series is missing that element, whether its good or bad, i dont know.

 

But as I read there will be a chapter with 80 PoVs...do you think its finally time we have those epitomes like "oh i never thought so and so would be a DF" or "i cant believe it, what are they going to do now, will they get there in time to save him?"

 

Ok maybe like in The Dark Knight - how when Batman was kicking Banes ass and then poof gets blindsided by...(spoiler) that chick. You would have never thought that.

 

I only say this because in all the WoT books, we are presented with evil characters and know full well that they will "hurt" the main guys. Liandrin, Elaida (to a point), J Carridin, Davlen, Shiane, Fain...where Verin and Ingtar are DFs but dont do much harm. Melindhra was the only one to "stab someone in the back" figuratively...haha.

 

Sorry for the length, just venting.

 

Well, I certainly see your point, but I do think it isn't entirely accurate.

 

First off, I'd point to Taim and those at the Black Tower. He has certainly betrayed Rand. And Kinsman and his lot DID try to kill him in Cairhien, and after. So I think that would count. Though I can't remember if we were certain if Taim was a DF by then nor not.

 

Second, Liandrin betrayed Egwene and Nynaeve. Again, the reader knew she was a DF at the time, but the girls did not. Certainly, the scene in Fal Dara was a stab in the back to Algemar's sister.

 

So, let's limit ourselves to one's we didn't see coming. Shiane trying to kill Rand and Mat in the stable. Aram trying to kill Perrin. Alviarin certainly betrayed Siuan, as did Elaida. Merean certainly did her share of betraying in New Spring, and the BA betrayed and killed two Amyrlins, and Tamra's Hunters. Lan was betrayed by the bowman, and Rhyne (though the reader suspected both). Someone certainly betrayed Dobraine. Seta betrayed Mat and Egeanin. Maradon/Ituralde were betrayed by their DF leader. Weiramon certainly betrayed Rand (resulting in the arrow shot that almost killed him).

 

Not a long list, for 13 books worth, but there have been a fair share of betrayals. Most haven't involved overt violence, however. Or as the reader, we knew the betrayer was evil beforehand.

 

One thing about the sudden evil reveal is that you can't get into that character's head, else you know they are evil, and thus no surprise. I agree there probably should have been more, but I think there is something to be gained from getting inside evil's head and knowing what they are thinking. Self-preservation is high on the list for most, so they generally won't risk open assault unless they think they can get away clean and benefit from it. True believers like Ishamael/Moridin are few and far between.

[joeron bigelow]

 

Well, I certainly see your point, but I do think it isn't entirely accurate.

 

 

Probably because I am not the best writer around and didnt have good enough examples...but

 

 

 

So, let's limit ourselves to one's we didn't see coming. Shiane trying to kill Rand and Mat in the stable. Aram trying to kill Perrin. Alviarin certainly betrayed Siuan, as did Elaida. Merean certainly did her share of betraying in New Spring, and the BA betrayed and killed two Amyrlins, and Tamra's Hunters. Lan was betrayed by the bowman, and Rhyne (though the reader suspected both). Someone certainly betrayed Dobraine. Seta betrayed Mat and Egeanin. Maradon/Ituralde were betrayed by their DF leader. Weiramon certainly betrayed Rand (resulting in the arrow shot that almost killed him).

 

 

Of this list - only Aram turning on Perrin was a "wow" moment, and although pretty important to the PLOD, still not something that I would shed tears over.

 

I think I'm looking for or "wanting" is a better word - a scene like in Braveheart, where mel gibson discovers that the scottish lord guy is working with the british king secretly...remember how shocked mel gibsons face was? how hurt he was? We need some of that.

 

If you are a wrestling fan - I can compare it to when Hulk Hogan first joined the NWO...and the showed kids crying in the stands. Their "hero" just turned Heel, and totally no one saw it coming. Whoa right there is it - "no one saw it coming..." Everything in this damn book we see coming. Taim yes, Elaida yes...even her getting collared you had to see coming...

 

basically I need Birgitte to stab Mat in the back and say she did it because she was promised to be born again to the wheel by doing so....something like that. You would never think Big B would turn to the DO, and against Mat of all people.

 

but thanks for your response...I agree with your point:

 

 

 

Not a long list, for 13 books worth, but there have been a fair share of betrayals. Most haven't involved overt violence, however. Or as the reader, we knew the betrayer was evil beforehand.

 

One thing about the sudden evil reveal is that you can't get into that character's head, else you know they are evil, and thus no surprise. I agree there probably should have been more, but I think there is something to be gained from getting inside evil's head and knowing what they are thinking. Self-preservation is high on the list for most, so they generally won't risk open assault unless they think they can get away clean and benefit from it. True believers like Ishamael/Moridin are few and far between.

 

splendid...

[TootThatHorn]

These have been my favorite chapters in the past. I figured also that it would be at the end of TG. As long as it's not like the LotR movies where you need to pee but the damn thing just refuses to end.

You can always take the book into the bathroom. You know how many people are gonna poop their pants a TG? A lot. ;)

 

This is sound advice. January 8th, time to buy stock in adult diapers.

[Durinax]

The 80+ PoV chapter will either be a masterpiece or a nightmare - it's hard for me to see it being anywhere in the middle. And of course, I'm hoping for masterpiece.

 

Couldn't have said it better.....I completely agree.

The only sort of scene I could see something like that, would be when the lines of battle are finally joined :D

[Barid Bel Medar]

The 80 PoV Chapter does include repeat characters, so it won't be 80 entirely different people. (Which you could say is good or bad)

 

I would say most of it will be switching between Rand, Mat and Perrin and Moridin, Lanfear and Demandred for the Shadow.

 

I think the interesting thing will be how many really unique PoV we get in this.

 

I can see a Sharan PoV here, if we get any, it would be the most likely spot for it. Showing the battle encompassing the world. (or if Sharan army comes to fight)

 

Might also get a look into some of the minor characters' heads, which may reveal a heap. We could get Taim, Logain, Bashere, Dobraine, etc.. (people who's motives are hidden)

[TootThatHorn]

The Shaido are back in the Waste too right? Maybe we'll see some overflow of trollocs harassing them as well. I agree with Barid, it's going to be jumping to and from a lot of the same characters with some probable unique ones that have the potential to make it even more incredible.

[pamela]

basically I need Birgitte to stab Mat in the back and say she did it because she was promised to be born again to the wheel by doing so....something like that. You would never think Big B would turn to the DO, and against Mat of all people.

 

NOOOOOOO! I don't need it, I love them together! Wondering if the "GRRMesque moment" mentioned by Brandon is gonna break my heart. But, here, you may get satisfied (unless it's not just someone imortant dying with no betrayal at all).

[ozimandias]

So, let's limit ourselves to one's we didn't see coming. Shiane trying to kill Rand and Mat in the stable. Aram trying to kill Perrin. Alviarin certainly betrayed Siuan, as did Elaida. Merean certainly did her share of betraying in New Spring, and the BA betrayed and killed two Amyrlins, and Tamra's Hunters. Lan was betrayed by the bowman, and Rhyne (though the reader suspected both). Someone certainly betrayed Dobraine. Seta betrayed Mat and Egeanin. Maradon/Ituralde were betrayed by their DF leader. Weiramon certainly betrayed Rand (resulting in the arrow shot that almost killed him).

 

 

Of this list - only Aram turning on Perrin was a "wow" moment, and although pretty important to the PLOD, still not something that I would shed tears over.

 

I think I'm looking for or "wanting" is a better word - a scene like in Braveheart, where mel gibson discovers that the scottish lord guy is working with the british king secretly...remember how shocked mel gibsons face was? how hurt he was? We need some of that.

 

If you are a wrestling fan - I can compare it to when Hulk Hogan first joined the NWO...and the showed kids crying in the stands. Their "hero" just turned Heel, and totally no one saw it coming. Whoa right there is it - "no one saw it coming..." Everything in this damn book we see coming. Taim yes, Elaida yes...even her getting collared you had to see coming...

 

basically I need Birgitte to stab Mat in the back and say she did it because she was promised to be born again to the wheel by doing so....something like that. You would never think Big B would turn to the DO, and against Mat of all people.

 

but thanks for your response...I agree with your point:

Personally, I find it to be more a result of the single POV that Harry Potter offers. We see inside the head of many characters in the WoT series so it is nearly impossible to have a Snape-like moment or Scabbers etc. It's not really feasible to me to have Birgitte turn on Mat, because we have heard inside her head - we know she likes him a bunch and she's not exactly an evil person who is only out to be a hero of legend. If we had similarly heard Snape's innermost thoughts more often we would have seen the Dumbledore/Snape plan miles away.

So in the end its more a result of style preference, RJ prefers foreshadowing and fulfillment to capture that side of the reading experience, rather than plot twist.

Still, I would argue the Verin reveal was pretty darn close to that feeling. The 'are they or aren't they' of Logain and Taim... Weiramon and others have also been hidden darkfriends. Sheriam was a bit of a surprise.

 

Perhaps the problem for you is that RJ/BS's style in these books is not to do a big reveal with a music swelling lead up and the classic "I was EVIL all along! Muahahahaha!" or with a big

type moment, but there have been lots of moments.

[OptimusPrime]

80 PoVs in one chapter? Jesus Christ have there even been that many in an entire book so far? Even if there are repeated characters I bet about 50 of them will be random onlookers and such like. Not full of the big players as it should be. Not that a chapter should even be allowed that many...

 

I already dont like that chapter.

[Luckers]

80 PoVs in one chapter? Jesus Christ have there even been that many in an entire book so far? Even if there are repeated characters I bet about 50 of them will be random onlookers and such like. Not full of the big players as it should be. Not that a chapter should even be allowed that many...

 

I already dont like that chapter.

 

There were 21 PoV's in With the Choedan Kal--but still I'm expecting something like that Galad/Perrin flipback which was a nice concept in theory but a little fourth-wall-breaky in practice.

[OptimusPrime]

80 PoVs in one chapter? Jesus Christ have there even been that many in an entire book so far? Even if there are repeated characters I bet about 50 of them will be random onlookers and such like. Not full of the big players as it should be. Not that a chapter should even be allowed that many...

 

I already dont like that chapter.

 

There were 21 PoV's in With the Choedan Kal--but still I'm expecting something like that Galad/Perrin flipback which was a nice concept in theory but a little fourth-wall-breaky in practice.

 

Dont get me wrong Im not saying it cant be an awesome scene. I just think if theres going to be literally 80+ it should all be something like, everyone who is connected to Rand PoVs. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Alanna (or Moiraine if I am right), Moridin and Fain. Throw in a couple of the other Forsaken, and possibly Nynaeve, and we'd have a new Cleansing. But I just dont see it being like that this time for some reason. It'll be some pesky parting of clouds incident, not an endgame moment for the big players.

[TootThatHorn]

80 PoVs in one chapter? Jesus Christ have there even been that many in an entire book so far? Even if there are repeated characters I bet about 50 of them will be random onlookers and such like. Not full of the big players as it should be. Not that a chapter should even be allowed that many...

 

I already dont like that chapter.

 

There were 21 PoV's in With the Choedan Kal--but still I'm expecting something like that Galad/Perrin flipback which was a nice concept in theory but a little fourth-wall-breaky in practice.

 

Dont get me wrong Im not saying it cant be an awesome scene. I just think if theres going to be literally 80+ it should all be something like, everyone who is connected to Rand PoVs. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Alanna (or Moiraine if I am right), Moridin and Fain. Throw in a couple of the other Forsaken, and possibly Nynaeve, and we'd have a new Cleansing. But I just dont see it being like that this time for some reason. It'll be some pesky parting of clouds incident, not an endgame moment for the big players.

 

I think it could be great. The battle is going to be huge so there will be a chance to see it happening on all fronts. Generals pushing forward in one spot. Soldiers falling back in another. AS swarmed by draghkar; warders fighting fists of trollocs. Aiel flanking swarms of shadowspawn. The whole battle reflecting a fight with Moridin. Dragon cannons tearing through ranks.

 

The more I think about it it's the only way to do it in a book and show the emotion of battle. Also I see the reason of packing it in to one chapter since it will be strange to have multiple chapters strung together to tie in the same concept. Also bear in mind this does not exclude other chapters from having multiple POVs, just this one is dedicated to showing as many sides as possible.

[Luckers]

Mmm, but the key to that sort of diversity of perspective is subtlety of the portrayal, and pay off to build up. Take Steven Erikson for example--the man is brilliant at taking the reader into the minds of the individual soldiers so when the big battle comes and you jump from Skulldeath to Hellien to Bedalle to Blistig and so forth you really feel the oomph because you connect with them emotionally in some way--you like them or hate them, empathise with their flaws or admire their determination, feel sorry for them or respect them--and using that Erikson portrays a set of events from that emotional window in some sort of way that is strongly based in the character.

 

Even Jordan--and note I don't consider this to be Jordan's strong points. His climaxes were always quite short--but even Jordan wove build up into the characters nature in order to bring the fight--for instance the Rand/LTT struggle that was the real focus of the attack on Algarin's manor, or the way Eben is reflecting on his growing love for Daigian, or Demandred practical irritation when he encounters Flinn, or Verin's absent minded startledness at Graendal....

 

Brandon on the other hand relies on the epic action movie nature of the scene to hold his battles; at best I see over the top, gratuitous action scenes like we saw at Hinderstap or when Gawyn fought... practically anyone. At worst I see another Maradon, where characters stand around and wax lyrical about the rightous battle taking place and the awesome combatents involved.

[TootThatHorn]

Mmm, but the key to that sort of diversity of perspective is subtlety of the portrayal, and pay off to build up. Take Steven Erikson for example--the man is brilliant at taking the reader into the minds of the individual soldiers so when the big battle comes and you jump from Skulldeath to Hellien to Bedalle to Blistig and so forth you really feel the oomph because you connect with them emotionally in some way--you like them or hate them, empathise with their flaws or admire their determination, feel sorry for them or respect them--and using that Erikson portrays a set of events from that emotional window in some sort of way that is strongly based in the character.

 

Even Jordan--and note I don't consider this to be Jordan's strong points. His climaxes were always quite short--but even Jordan wove build up into the characters nature in order to bring the fight--for instance the Rand/LTT struggle that was the real focus of the attack on Algarin's manor, or the way Eben is reflecting on his growing love for Daigian, or Demandred practical irritation when he encounters Flinn, or Verin's absent minded startledness at Graendal....

 

Brandon on the other hand relies on the epic action movie nature of the scene to hold his battles; at best I see over the top, gratuitous action scenes like we saw at Hinderstap or when Gawyn fought... practically anyone. At worst I see another Maradon, where characters stand around and wax lyrical about the rightous battle taking place and the awesome combatents involved.

 

The Maradon part especially is a good point. I would be ok with those POV's as long as they are BALANCED with first hand; and have it all tie in nicely to each other. There should be a great build up to a unified climax, i would hope. It could be a well written mess to begin with but a shame for it to end that way as well.