Healing Naeff

[Vardar]

Would it be changing the structure or restoring it to it's original state? In my mind i see it more like healing a wound (In the case of damage to the brain itself) or fixing a chemical imbalance (Which should be possible too).

 

Healing can regrow some parts, but we don't know the exact limits on how it works. (It's actually rather confusing on this point, good example, why is it impossible to regrown a limb? I mean with deep gashes muscle has to be regrown, same with shattered bones, if the limb is there it can be reattached when means some growning, but regular growning is impossible, seems off).

 

If the brian was off from birth, I can see it not being possible to fix, but if it came later, it should be healable. If it's due to those two reasons. (who really knows what causes madness, we just know some)

 

Yeah, I am not sure how far RJ went into these matters.

 

I can see the logic behind what you are saying, and I agree, however, from a story point of view, regrowing entire limbs and such seems tacky.

 

I would say the thing with limbs and such is that Healing can only nit things back together, like super-glue, not actually create something that isn't there. So you could technically Heal a severed hand, by kinda gluing the pieces together again, not create a whole new hand.

 

With the brain injury, I agree, and should probably amend my statement. I think that damage to the brain should be able to be Healed. At least on a physical level (the brain tissue fixed up). Not sure what that would do to the mind. I think madness that cannot be Healed would be more the psychological kind, not any physical anomaly. When I said abnormality I meant something that the person is born with. Healing wouldn't be able to create new parts of the brain that would fix that, because technically it wouldn't be damaged, just different from the norm.

 

Again, not sure how far RJ went into the theory behind this, or how knowledgeable he was with medical science, but I would say that anything that isn't physical damage (including the conduit or what not that connects a person to the OP) or pressure from an outside source can't be healed. Insanity of the normal kind would be a purely psychological thing, just how someone thinks. Like if someone went insane from seeing their family killed by Trollocs. No actual damage, no Compulsion. Just not able to cope with what had happened.

 

Delving = the closest thing I could compare it to would be like a sonar/scanner type thing. A person skilled in Delving can "look into" a person (or like Egwene, the earth) and "see" what is going on.

 

Nynaeve can Delve people, she searches their body via the OP for sickness or injury. She uses it (IIRC) when she Heals Naeff. The Delving showed her the Taint madness.

 

Oh I agree. He didn't go too deep into it, I'm just being over critical. Knitting back together is correct, however it's ignoring the fact that most slash wounds destroy the muscle and when these guys speak about healing with no scar, it means the muscle was regrown. We all just choose to ignore it.

[Suttree]

To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

 

Concerning Graendal, here is what the BWB says..

 

Graendal

Kamarile Maradim Nindar was a noted ascetic, not only living a spare and simple life, but preaching that others should as well. Kamarile Maradim was famed and loved around the world, if apparently more often by people who had heard of her than those who actually knew her. Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

[driedraspberry]

Basically, madness and Taint induced insanity is two different things.

 

Madness of the mind is an abnormality in the brain's function due to some kind of brain damage or natural occurrence. Changing the brain's structure or whatever abnormality, is impossible.

 

The Taint is akin to Compulsion. The man is not actually mad. There is nothing wrong with his brain. It is just that the Taint latches on like a leech and controls the mind. Once that control is gone, the brain operates in it's normal state.

 

It is hardly a mistake, it is clearly something intended by RJ. It is a huge plot detail, there is no way it was simply a mistake by Brandon.

 

Would it be changing the structure or restoring it to it's original state? In my mind i see it more like healing a wound (In the case of damage to the brain itself) or fixing a chemical imbalance (Which should be possible too).

 

Healing can regrow some parts, but we don't know the exact limits on how it works. (It's actually rather confusing on this point, good example, why is it impossible to regrown a limb? I mean with deep gashes muscle has to be regrown, same with shattered bones, if the limb is there it can be reattached when means some growning, but regular growning is impossible, seems off).

 

If the brian was off from birth, I can see it not being possible to fix, but if it came later, it should be healable. If it's due to those two reasons. (who really knows what causes madness, we just know some)

 

Their abilities with cell regeneration are limited, I guess. Still, I would expect someone like Nyn who's supposedly so exceptional to manage limb regrowth.

 

But not being able to heal brain damage I can understand. Either to regenerate or remap are close to impossible due to network complexity. I mean Nyn called healing damage to the eye, a receptor, very difficult, intricate work.

[Knivy]

To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

 

Concerning Graendal, here is what the BWB says..

 

Graendal

Kamarile Maradim Nindar was a noted ascetic, not only living a spare and simple life, but preaching that others should as well. Kamarile Maradim was famed and loved around the world, if apparently more often by people who had heard of her than those who actually knew her. Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

 

So she was a psychologist, not psychiatrist. Thank you :)

[he who comes with a bong]

To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

 

Concerning Graendal, here is what the BWB says..

 

Graendal

Kamarile Maradim Nindar was a noted ascetic, not only living a spare and simple life, but preaching that others should as well. Kamarile Maradim was famed and loved around the world, if apparently more often by people who had heard of her than those who actually knew her. Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

 

So she was a psychologist, not psychiatrist. Thank you :)

 

So i was sorta right about her being the best with minds.

[Knivy]

To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

 

Concerning Graendal, here is what the BWB says..

 

Graendal

Kamarile Maradim Nindar was a noted ascetic, not only living a spare and simple life, but preaching that others should as well. Kamarile Maradim was famed and loved around the world, if apparently more often by people who had heard of her than those who actually knew her. Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

 

So she was a psychologist, not psychiatrist. Thank you :)

 

So i was sorta right about her being the best with minds.

Yes, you were.

 

But healing ailments of the mind requires non-basic knowledge of chemistry and biology, and the only biology is how it relates to the power, and the closest thing we have to chemists are the guild(now only that one girl). They dont know how things work, so they can only fix obvious injuries like broken bones and bleeding. How this relates to sickness, which is caused by microbes.. I have yet to figure out.

[Vardar]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

[he who comes with a bong]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

 

Its really hard to say what type of things they were able to study in the Age of Legends. I do belive the Sharom wasnt only a center for learning the power, but also kinda like a modern day college, where they could study what ever they wanted to.

[thisguy]

Maybe, she used the OP in her study of the mind like a Psychiatrist uses pharmaceuticals...

[Knivy]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

[Suttree]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

[bsmnt23]

The AoL was a little limited in their use of the One Power. They treated it as a science, and believed thay had reched the limits of what it was capible. The only survivors of the AoL have frequently been astounded by the seemingly "impossible" feets achieved by the comparitavly weaker half-trained dark-age throwbacks that wield the Power in the new world they find themselves. The contemporary power wielders are now intuitivly using the Power, almost as an art form. Certainly not all of them, as evidenced by the stagnation in the Tower, but the best of them such as Nyneve and certainly Rand, have found ways of achieving the impossible by simply weaving what feels right. No one from the AoL would have thought to use the Power to Heal insanity, because obviously that was impossible, but then so was unraveling a web, or a forced link, or the warder bond, or the countless other things that were obviously impossible.

[thisguy]

The AK 47 is one of the simplest machine guns and one of the most effective. Sometimes, when your resources are limited you come up with simple but extremely effective ideas you never would have other wise.

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

The way i see the reason she does s

The AoL was a little limited in their use of the One Power. They treated it as a science, and believed thay had reched the limits of what it was capible. The only survivors of the AoL have frequently been astounded by the seemingly "impossible" feets achieved by the comparitavly weaker half-trained dark-age throwbacks that wield the Power in the new world they find themselves. The contemporary power wielders are now intuitivly using the Power, almost as an art form. Certainly not all of them, as evidenced by the stagnation in the Tower, but the best of them such as Nyneve and certainly Rand, have found ways of achieving the impossible by simply weaving what feels right. No one from the AoL would have thought to use the Power to Heal insanity, because obviously that was impossible, but then so was unraveling a web, or a forced link, or the warder bond, or the countless other things that were obviously impossible.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with you 100%.

[bsmnt23]

The way i see the reason she does s

The AoL was a little limited in their use of the One Power. They treated it as a science, and believed thay had reched the limits of what it was capible. The only survivors of the AoL have frequently been astounded by the seemingly "impossible" feets achieved by the comparitavly weaker half-trained dark-age throwbacks that wield the Power in the new world they find themselves. The contemporary power wielders are now intuitivly using the Power, almost as an art form. Certainly not all of them, as evidenced by the stagnation in the Tower, but the best of them such as Nyneve and certainly Rand, have found ways of achieving the impossible by simply weaving what feels right. No one from the AoL would have thought to use the Power to Heal insanity, because obviously that was impossible, but then so was unraveling a web, or a forced link, or the warder bond, or the countless other things that were obviously impossible.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with you 100%.

 

:) Thanks.

[Knivy]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

I stand corrected.

 

And as for the "impossible things," the only thing i see there that was truely thought impossible would be the forced link.

 

The Warder Bond just hadnt been thought of,

Unraveling a web was considered extremely dangerous, but possible,

 

And madness hasnt been cured, only insanity caused by a constant and increasing outside influence. In that, she treated the cause, which removed the symptom.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

The third name would be for her gift as a healer, does not have to be related to OP use. I do not think you needed to channel in order to earn a third name. Will verify that.

 

Edit: verified. Vards is right, that she was an accomplished healer of the mind does not mean she was an accomplished channeler. From what we see in the books though, she is a bloody good channeler.

[Suttree]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

The third name would be for her gift as a healer, does not have to be related to OP use. I do not think you needed to channel in order to earn a third name. Will verify that.

 

Edit: verified. Vards is right, that she was an accomplished healer of the mind does not mean she was an accomplished channeler. From what we see in the books though, she is a bloody good channeler.

 

Interesting. I always assumed 3rd names were tied to channeling

[Knivy]

While I was ignorant of the whole 3rd name thing.

[MasterAblar]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

The third name would be for her gift as a healer, does not have to be related to OP use. I do not think you needed to channel in order to earn a third name. Will verify that.

 

Edit: verified. Vards is right, that she was an accomplished healer of the mind does not mean she was an accomplished channeler. From what we see in the books though, she is a bloody good channeler.

 

Interesting. I always assumed 3rd names were tied to channeling

 

Didn't Asmodean get his for his music?

[XoMeltdownoX]

BWB page 30.

"Everyone was born with two names and could earn the third one only through accomplishment, apparently possible in many fields. The people afforded the most status, though they still had to earn their third name through great individual works, were those whose gifts made them capable of the greatest service: those who could effectively channel the OP."

[XoMeltdownoX]

Hmm. I wonder how she got so good with the OP then. It seems like she went the route of a channeler who didn't use her powers in her realm of study, I would assume she'd be a realatively unaccomplished channeler then.

Id assume shed gone through all the training or what they had in the AoL, and we always have Forsaken laughing at how pathetic AS of this age are, so she may very well have been "relatively unaccomplished" for the AoL.

 

She has to have been very accomplished. She earned the third name after all.

The third name would be for her gift as a healer, does not have to be related to OP use. I do not think you needed to channel in order to earn a third name. Will verify that.

 

Edit: verified. Vards is right, that she was an accomplished healer of the mind does not mean she was an accomplished channeler. From what we see in the books though, she is a bloody good channeler.

 

Interesting. I always assumed 3rd names were tied to channeling

 

Didn't Asmodean get his for his music?

Music composition. And he did not live up to the early hype earned as a child prodigy.

 

Edit: performance and composition.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Very interesting points. I still think it might be a mistake though, since RJ explicitly cited Ishamael's Healing of Lews Therin as something that required the True Power. LTT had Taint insanity, so we know the "OP can't heal madness" quote applies to the Taint just as much as "normal" insanity. It would be fun to ask Brandon-it's no big deal if it is a mistake, but if RJ intended this that would be a very interesting twist.

[Sharaman]

Yes - the root cause for Naeff and LTT going mad was the same. I assumed until ToM that it caused some sort of TP-triggered Compulsion/ delusions and it could only be Healed by somebody (that is TP user) who could see the weaves.

After ToM, I'm frankly puzzled. RJ statements are canon after all.

Unless of course Nynaeve has been sneakily granted the use of TP and she doesn't know it :) So she can see the weaves.

[Luckers]

The AoL was a little limited in their use of the One Power. They treated it as a science, and believed thay had reched the limits of what it was capible. The only survivors of the AoL have frequently been astounded by the seemingly "impossible" feets achieved by the comparitavly weaker half-trained dark-age throwbacks that wield the Power in the new world they find themselves. The contemporary power wielders are now intuitivly using the Power, almost as an art form. Certainly not all of them, as evidenced by the stagnation in the Tower, but the best of them such as Nyneve and certainly Rand, have found ways of achieving the impossible by simply weaving what feels right. No one from the AoL would have thought to use the Power to Heal insanity, because obviously that was impossible, but then so was unraveling a web, or a forced link, or the warder bond, or the countless other things that were obviously impossible.

 

This isn't actually accurate. Research and development were a constant in the Age of Legends, and their attitude toward it far more suited innovation than the modern system, which is constrained by the fact that in modern days Aes Sedai are so indoctrinated to be impressed with the image of what it is to be Aes Sedai that they cannot bring themselves to question the that image--its the core of all of the major failings, not the least of which is that the very act of innovation is to question what went before.

 

This is why the instinctive channelers in the modern era are achieving so much by comparison, because in their instinctive channeling and the ignorence that goes with it they are doing what the Aes Sedai were not doing until recently--they're innovating.

 

But the AoLers were innovating constantly, and took a strictly R&D scientific approach. We see this in particular with the speed at which they weaponized themselves on the advent of the War, but it was occuring beforehand, and we know they were quite exacting in their standards--Mesaana, for instance, was denied a position as a One Power researcher.

 

The reason for their surprise at the innovations of the Third Age are not at the concept of innovation in general, but rather that these half trained idiot children could possibly have come up with something that hadn't occurred to any of the great minds and researchers of their own Age.