Rand vs Cadsuane

[thisguy]

Ok

[Kamin_Majere]

No. Nynaeve was wrong in her estimation of how much power she could hold, as Egwene's thoughts in that scene demonstrate:

 

Just as softly, Nynaeve said, “If we stop them - if we could stop them - he’ll die. I do not think I could

handle half that much of the Power.” She paused as if she had just heard her own words - that she could channel

half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa’angreal - and her voice grew even fainter. “Light help me, I want

to.”

 

Nynaeve is being wistful here, not making a statement about her strength level. Its like when people look at some great work of art and say "I don't think I could paint half as well".

 

Egwene with that want is approaching the range of Rand with callandor, though since we don't know exactly how Vora's wand stacks up to Callador, we can't say how close. She'll certainly be leaving an unaided Nynaeve far behind.

 

Ok yeah i can see that. I've always read it as her being shocked that she could hold almost half of what the circle+wand could hold, but i certainly do see your point about it being just wistful thinking though. That does make more sense when tied to the rest of the story I suppose. But with her taking on Moggy a while later, I've always read it to show that nyn was indeed something truly special in the modern age being able to go toe to toe with a forsaken in sheer strength.

But indeed point taken and reading it your way does make more sense to the overall story.

 

Though Eggy with wand still wouldnt approach Rand with Callandor IMO, Maybe Lanfear with Vora's Wand would though. (as thats a top level vs top level, not a top level vs a medium level)

 

 

It can open a tiny gateway. Meaning there's power enough for her to throw multiple fireballs, at least.

 

Very true, like i said its a great Ace in the Hole, and in most fights could very well win. I just dont see a few fireballs winning out in a battle of this magnitude. But it might well stop him from considering the "shield and stab" tactic :)

 

Since when has the last battle been about defeating the Foresaken? Did no one else read Verin's chapter in tGS?

Who says Forsaken, she should have just marched to the pit and whipped the Dark One for being bad mannered and made him apologize to everyone before he could play again. :p

I say it in jest, because I like Cads character... but when making this "larger than life" character Robert Jordan went a bit overboard. It half the time seems she's completely out of her mind when doing things, and the other half it seems that she's just suffering everyone around her because she wants Rand to beat the Dark One because she's tired of doing it herself.

 

I know he had to do it this way (because lets face it how else do you get a character that can deal with The Dragon, a General with 1000 lives of knowledge, a Wolf King, the 3 strongest channelers in an eon, etc) but it makes her to overblown a lot of time

[Vardar]

Ok yeah i can see that. I've always read it as her being shocked that she could hold almost half of what the circle+wand could hold, but i certainly do see your point about it being just wistful thinking though. That does make more sense when tied to the rest of the story I suppose. But with her taking on Moggy a while later, I've always read it to show that nyn was indeed something truly special in the modern age being able to go toe to toe with a forsaken in sheer strength.

But indeed point taken and reading it your way does make more sense to the overall story.

 

Though Eggy with wand still wouldnt approach Rand with Callandor IMO, Maybe Lanfear with Vora's Wand would though. (as thats a top level vs top level, not a top level vs a medium level)

 

San/Angreal add a set power level, it doesn't multiply. If her wand is weaker than Callendor (We know it is, we just don't know how much, knowledge that I really wish we had), Even Lan couldn't go toe to toe with Rand and Callendor. With the Choden Kal, yes, any women who could use it would equal any man who could, because at that level you're channeling so much power that personal ability is nigh worthless (The raw force overpowers you)

 

That being said, I wonder why the CK has a requirement when no other San'Angreal does. Curious.

 

Very true, like i said its a great Ace in the Hole, and in most fights could very well win. I just dont see a few fireballs winning out in a battle of this magnitude. But it might well stop him from considering the "shield and stab" tactic :)

 

Actually when I brought up the well, I meant it to be the fact that even if he could shield her, she could cut the shield with her well sadiar.

[Kamin_Majere]

Multiple or set number Eggy with the wand still wouldnt match Rand with Callendor.

 

She's a what 15? Say the Wand is a +20 and Callendor is a +21 then you have rand at (hes over 21 but i dont know where... lets say 24) and eggy at 15 then you have Rand sporting 45 and eggy sporting a 35 still a huge gap in power, but if Lanfear had the wand it would be a closer match she would be at 41 and with power vs efficiency argument thing factored in it would be pretty close i think

[driedraspberry]

This is kinda silly. He has taken on forsaken and beaten them when he was half as powerful and knowledgeable as he is now. Whatever...

 

What's silly? Saying that he would most likely win but it would be a near thing? No idea why you think brute force would matter since Cads is impervious to direct weaves. Rand does not know that is the case nor has he had to combat such a terangreal. In a battle situation the shock of realizing that could make a significant difference. I you look at it from an unbiased perspective it would be close.

 

The element of surprise isn't as efficient as you'd think. Unless Rand's back is turned and he's busy dealing with someone else, it won't take him an extra breath to cut through whatever weave she sends his way. He and Cads are not matched the way Nyn and Moghi were. And remember he possesses battle instincts beyond that of the latter. Rand did a fantastic job cutting through whatever Lanfear threw at him, even her weave to cut him off was instant from working. Or better yet look at Alanna and Verin's surprise attempt to shield him.

 

Two instances we've seen element of surprise used as tactic has been Nyn/Rahvin and Moiraine/Belal. In the first Rahvin was preoccupied but aside from some injury he easily warded off Nyn's attack. Which causes me to believe despite Rand being preoccupied by another powerful opponent, Cads would have to use balefire to beat him. Which she would never.

 

A likely scenario is, Rand attacks, is surprised. Takes him a moment to collect himself, giving Cads time to attack, he cuts through her weaves. He holds her attacks at bay and uses his sword.

[Vardar]

Multiple or set number Eggy with the wand still wouldnt match Rand with Callendor.

 

She's a what 15? Say the Wand is a +20 and Callendor is a +21 then you have rand at (hes over 21 but i dont know where... lets say 24) and eggy at 15 then you have Rand sporting 45 and eggy sporting a 35 still a huge gap in power, but if Lanfear had the wand it would be a closer match she would be at 41 and with power vs efficiency argument thing factored in it would be pretty close i think

 

Considering Moriane's adds 12-14ish, and it's not even an San, and Callendor is noted for being the 3rd most powerful, I'd say it's well over 21. I'd think at that point personal powers become a drop in the bucket. (Like we'd be talking about 100+)

 

This is kinda silly. He has taken on forsaken and beaten them when he was half as powerful and knowledgeable as he is now. Whatever...

 

What's silly? Saying that he would most likely win but it would be a near thing? No idea why you think brute force would matter since Cads is impervious to direct weaves. Rand does not know that is the case nor has he had to combat such a terangreal. In a battle situation the shock of realizing that could make a significant difference. I you look at it from an unbiased perspective it would be close.

 

The element of surprise isn't as efficient as you'd think. Unless Rand's back is turned and he's busy dealing with someone else, it won't take him an extra breath to cut through whatever weave she sends his way. He and Cads are not matched the way Nyn and Moghi were. And remember he possesses battle instincts beyond that of the latter. Rand did a fantastic job cutting through whatever Lanfear threw at him, even her weave to cut him off was instant from working. Or better yet look at Alanna and Verin's surprise attempt to shield him.

 

Two instances we've seen element of surprise used as tactic has been Nyn/Rahvin and Moiraine/Belal. In the first Rahvin was preoccupied but aside from some injury he easily warded off Nyn's attack. Which causes me to believe despite Rand being preoccupied by another powerful opponent, Cads would have to use balefire to beat him. Which she would never.

 

A likely scenario is, Rand attacks, is surprised. Takes him a moment to collect himself, giving Cads time to attack, he cuts through her weaves. He holds her attacks at bay and uses his sword.

 

With her Angreal, she's more powerful than Rand.

 

Although we don't know is new super Rand is still on the charts.

[Guest Akanas]

Well, i believe Rand will win. No boubt

 

If he is having trouble punching through her defenses, tja...he could just light her up with all her paralis-net with the True Power for all i care

Do we know if he still has access to that?

[driedraspberry]

Multiple or set number Eggy with the wand still wouldnt match Rand with Callendor.

 

She's a what 15? Say the Wand is a +20 and Callendor is a +21 then you have rand at (hes over 21 but i dont know where... lets say 24) and eggy at 15 then you have Rand sporting 45 and eggy sporting a 35 still a huge gap in power, but if Lanfear had the wand it would be a closer match she would be at 41 and with power vs efficiency argument thing factored in it would be pretty close i think

 

Considering Moriane's adds 12-14ish, and it's not even an San, and Callendor is noted for being the 3rd most powerful, I'd say it's well over 21. I'd think at that point personal powers become a drop in the bucket. (Like we'd be talking about 100+)

 

This is kinda silly. He has taken on forsaken and beaten them when he was half as powerful and knowledgeable as he is now. Whatever...

 

What's silly? Saying that he would most likely win but it would be a near thing? No idea why you think brute force would matter since Cads is impervious to direct weaves. Rand does not know that is the case nor has he had to combat such a terangreal. In a battle situation the shock of realizing that could make a significant difference. I you look at it from an unbiased perspective it would be close.

 

The element of surprise isn't as efficient as you'd think. Unless Rand's back is turned and he's busy dealing with someone else, it won't take him an extra breath to cut through whatever weave she sends his way. He and Cads are not matched the way Nyn and Moghi were. And remember he possesses battle instincts beyond that of the latter. Rand did a fantastic job cutting through whatever Lanfear threw at him, even her weave to cut him off was instant from working. Or better yet look at Alanna and Verin's surprise attempt to shield him.

 

Two instances we've seen element of surprise used as tactic has been Nyn/Rahvin and Moiraine/Belal. In the first Rahvin was preoccupied but aside from some injury he easily warded off Nyn's attack. Which causes me to believe despite Rand being preoccupied by another powerful opponent, Cads would have to use balefire to beat him. Which she would never.

 

A likely scenario is, Rand attacks, is surprised. Takes him a moment to collect himself, giving Cads time to attack, he cuts through her weaves. He holds her attacks at bay and uses his sword.

 

With her Angreal, she's more powerful than Rand.

 

 

How do we know this? I mean is there conceret evidence or just derivation.

 

Hmm is splitting weaves the same as brute power? At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

[Suttree]

At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

[driedraspberry]

At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

 

Back in Tear when Egwene was explaining how difficult splitting was. Back then they were all just starting out so it's somewhat of a fair comparison. Obviously now with more experience, being closer to their potential the ability has grown as well.

[MasterAblar]

Nyneave is basically the same strength as Semirhage according to Brandon. Stronger than Moghedien, but weaker than Lanfear.

 

You have a quote for that? We know Ny's angreal is stronger of the 3 than Elayne found, the weak one being the 4ish level. Where did you get the Ny/Cads anrgeal comparrison from?

 

I actually read it on wot encyclopedia. Here precisely (near the bottom of the page). However it's actually on chapter 24, not 25 as they've mistakenly noted, so I've spent quite bit of time looking for the damn quote.

 

And she wore that peculiar piece as well, on her left hand, golden rings attached to a golden bracelet by flat chains. That was an angreal, much stronger than Cadsuane's shrike hair ornament.

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

 

I think she split it fourteen ways in tGS.

[joeron bigelow]

I'm just replying to the main post...

 

1. Cadsuane can't use balefire because its a "forbidden" weave, and she follows the rules, doesnt she?

2. Cad's medallion thingie blocks the power, but not a stout Two Rivers long bow.

 

subquestion---

 

will Mat/Cads ammy thing block a gateway? say I opened a gateway with the intent of just slicing you in half. would the ammy block that?

[MasterAblar]

will Mat/Cads ammy thing block a gateway? say I opened a gateway with the intent of just slicing you in half. would the ammy block that?

 

I imagine it would yes.

[b3arz3rg3r]

At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

 

The funny thing about that is that by that time she had already recieved all the teaching she was ever going to have. A couple of nights on the road, three months in the White Tower and her weeks as damane. Afterwards she didn't take a single lesson in the One Power. And there is no mention of her ever training her ability on her own from what I can remember.

Makes you wonder how Aes Sedai can take years to reach the shawl. They must be getting wasted every night and party until noon.

 

Well, it's an ongoing theme that training times get exponentially shorter as the series progresses. It's one of the many forms of power creep in the series.

[MasterAblar]

At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

 

The funny thing about that is that by that time she had already recieved all the teaching she was ever going to have. A couple of nights on the road, three months in the White Tower and her weeks as damane. Afterwards she didn't take a single lesson in the One Power. And there is no mention of her ever training her ability on her own from what I can remember.

Makes you wonder how Aes Sedai can take years to reach the shawl. They must be getting wasted every night and party until noon.

 

Well, it's an ongoing theme that training times get exponentially shorter as the series progresses. It's one of the many forms of power creep in the series.

 

Well, she sort of went straight from practice to real life. I imagine real life was a good way to improve.

[Maleshub]

The funny thing about that is that by that time she had already recieved all the teaching she was ever going to have. A couple of nights on the road, three months in the White Tower and her weeks as damane. Afterwards she didn't take a single lesson in the One Power. And there is no mention of her ever training her ability on her own from what I can remember.

Makes you wonder how Aes Sedai can take years to reach the shawl. They must be getting wasted every night and party until noon.

 

Well, it's an ongoing theme that training times get exponentially shorter as the series progresses. It's one of the many forms of power creep in the series.

 

Well, she sort of went straight from practice to real life. I imagine real life was good way to improve.

 

What Master Albar said.

 

Also, a theme of the series is how dated the WT's recruitment and training methods are. Evidence is the number of new novices Egwene recruited (over 1000), the new teaching techniques (families), and the number of accepted and AS she is raising quickly in preparation for the last battle. They seem to be concentrating on what is important before the LB and the whole WT seems content with it. Why is it strange that RJ had Egwene learn that through personal experience (as a prelude to changing the WT's dated teaching techniques)?

 

As to Egwene not being trained in the Power after Falme, we know that she went back to the Tower and trained for a while. And we also know that the Aiel Wise Ones taught her Dreamwalking as well as channeling weaves. And we know that she used Moghedien as a crash course in lost talents and weaves. And we know that she figured out cuendillar on her own (which needed research). So, there is enough evidence in the books to indicate that her training and research did not stop at the time your post implies.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The funny thing about that is that by that time she had already recieved all the teaching she was ever going to have. A couple of nights on the road, three months in the White Tower and her weeks as damane. Afterwards she didn't take a single lesson in the One Power. And there is no mention of her ever training her ability on her own from what I can remember.

Makes you wonder how Aes Sedai can take years to reach the shawl. They must be getting wasted every night and party until noon.

 

Well, it's an ongoing theme that training times get exponentially shorter as the series progresses. It's one of the many forms of power creep in the series.

 

Well, she sort of went straight from practice to real life. I imagine real life was good way to improve.

 

What Master Albar said.

 

Also, a theme of the series is how dated the WT's recruitment and training methods are. Evidence is the number of new novices Egwene recruited (over 1000), the new teaching techniques (families), and the number of accepted and AS she is raising quickly in preparation for the last battle. They seem to be concentrating on what is important before the LB and the whole WT seems content with it. Why is it strange that RJ had Egwene learn that through personal experience (as a prelude to changing the WT's dated teaching techniques)?

 

Only the recruitment is dated, nothing is said about the training methods. The "families" are just a crutch to manage the high numbers. Before Aes Sedai usually took about ten years to reach the shawl, five years of those as a novice alone. And now all of a sudden everyone learns the same in a matter of months and that is somehow without forcing the women as is done with the men.

 

There's really nothing strange about this development. As I said it's powercreep. It happens in almost all fantasy stories. Compare what Moiraine could do with an angreal in TEOTW with what's done now.

 

As to Egwene not being trained in the Power after Falme, we know that she went back to the Tower and trained for a while. And we also know that the Aiel Wise Ones taught her Dreamwalking as well as channeling weaves. And we know that she used Moghedien as a crash course in lost talents and weaves. And we know that she figured out cuendillar on her own (which needed research). So, there is enough evidence in the books to indicate that her training and research did not stop at the time your post implies.

 

After Falme Egwene came back to the tower took the test for accepted and left two days later. And the Wise Ones didn't give her a single lessons in the One Power they focussed on Dreamwalking and Dreamwalking only.

She didn't "research" Cuendillar, she just did it.

[MasterAblar]

Only the recruitment is dated, nothing is said about the training methods. The "families" are just a crutch to manage the high numbers. Before Aes Sedai usually took about ten years to reach the shawl, five years of those as a novice alone. And now all of a sudden everyone learns the same in a matter of months and that is somehow without forcing the women as is done with the men.

 

There's really nothing strange about this development. As I said it's powercreep. It happens in almost all fantasy stories. Compare what Moiraine could do with an angreal in TEOTW with what's done now.

 

Well, Perrin's army learns real fast too, but then he's taveren so perhaps it's justified.

 

She didn't "research" Cuendillar, she just did it.

 

I believe Moghedien pointed her in the right direction.

[Vardar]

Nyneave is basically the same strength as Semirhage according to Brandon. Stronger than Moghedien, but weaker than Lanfear.

 

You have a quote for that? We know Ny's angreal is stronger of the 3 than Elayne found, the weak one being the 4ish level. Where did you get the Ny/Cads anrgeal comparrison from?

 

I actually read it on wot encyclopedia. Here precisely (near the bottom of the page). However it's actually on chapter 24, not 25 as they've mistakenly noted, so I've spent quite bit of time looking for the damn quote.

 

And she wore that peculiar piece as well, on her left hand, golden rings attached to a golden bracelet by flat chains. That was an angreal, much stronger than Cadsuane's shrike hair ornament.

 

Are you referring to when she was just starting to learn? Thought I recall her splitting far more than three while dosed on forkroot...

 

I think she split it fourteen ways in tGS.

 

Ok that helps. Then maybe Cad's isn't weak, maybe Ny's is strong. But now I have to go back and read the bowl chapter, because I could have sworn Elayne said none of those Angreal were particulary strong, and Ny's was the strongest of the bunch. Even the weakest of those took her up 4ish levels, and she didn't describe Ny's as "Much stronger." Seems like the books may have some conflicting evidence here. Thanks for the tip, I'll research now.

 

How do we know this? I mean is there conceret evidence or just derivation.

 

Hmm is splitting weaves the same as brute power? At their weakest Rand could manage a dozen without breaking a sweat and Elayne/Eggy could do three with sweat. Do angreals enhance this ability too?

 

I did some basic math on page 4 giving a general idea. It's all on a Number system, 1 being the weakest, 25/6 being the strongest, (21 for a female).

[Vardar]

I'm just replying to the main post...

 

1. Cadsuane can't use balefire because its a "forbidden" weave, and she follows the rules, doesnt she?

2. Cad's medallion thingie blocks the power, but not a stout Two Rivers long bow.

 

subquestion---

 

will Mat/Cads ammy thing block a gateway? say I opened a gateway with the intent of just slicing you in half. would the ammy block that?

 

Nothing says an AS can't use BF. It's frowned upon. Forbidden weaves have nothing to do with the oaths, oddly enough.

[Vardar]

Actually crap, just reread this, Elayne says a not strong Angreal will give her Twice the Strength of Ny.

 

Hmm, none of this makes sense now. Power levels must not have standard increments in power between them, i,e, the power increase from 1 to 2 isn't the same as 14-15. Let me rethink this.

[Clouded]

Actually crap, just reread this, Elayne says a not strong Angreal will give her Twice the Strength of Ny.

 

Hmm, none of this makes sense now. Power levels must not have standard increments in power between them, i,e, the power increase from 1 to 2 isn't the same as 14-15. Let me rethink this.

 

It makes sense if you make the scale logarithmic. That is, each increase in level is a multiplier in strength. Such as, someone at level 4 would be twice as powerful as someone at level 3. Or, someone at level 17 would be twice as powerful as someone at 16, and 4 times as powerful as someone at 15.

 

Since angreals seem to be a purely static addition, then an angreal that would jump you from a 2 to a 12, would push you from a 12 to a 13. These level examples could change depending on what the multiplier difference is between the levels.

 

That said, I think we are digging a little deep. As much as I love trying to determine how the rules in a fantasy world work, I simply don't think there is enough evidence in the books to determine exactly how it works.

[Orderofolde]

Only the recruitment is dated, nothing is said about the training methods. The "families" are just a crutch to manage the high numbers. Before Aes Sedai usually took about ten years to reach the shawl, five years of those as a novice alone. And now all of a sudden everyone learns the same in a matter of months and that is somehow without forcing the women as is done with the men.

 

There's really nothing strange about this development. As I said it's powercreep. It happens in almost all fantasy stories. Compare what Moiraine could do with an angreal in TEOTW with what's done now.

 

Well, Perrin's army learns real fast too, but then he's taveren so perhaps it's justified.

 

She didn't "research" Cuendillar, she just did it.

 

I believe Moghedien pointed her in the right direction.

Perrin's army learns faster than it regularly should due to need and perhaps his being Taveren.

[Vardar]

Actually crap, just reread this, Elayne says a not strong Angreal will give her Twice the Strength of Ny.

 

Hmm, none of this makes sense now. Power levels must not have standard increments in power between them, i,e, the power increase from 1 to 2 isn't the same as 14-15. Let me rethink this.

 

It makes sense if you make the scale logarithmic. That is, each increase in level is a multiplier in strength. Such as, someone at level 4 would be twice as powerful as someone at level 3. Or, someone at level 17 would be twice as powerful as someone at 16, and 4 times as powerful as someone at 15.

 

Since angreals seem to be a purely static addition, then an angreal that would jump you from a 2 to a 12, would push you from a 12 to a 13. These level examples could change depending on what the multiplier difference is between the levels.

 

That said, I think we are digging a little deep. As much as I love trying to determine how the rules in a fantasy world work, I simply don't think there is enough evidence in the books to determine exactly how it works.

 

Yea it is getting rather deep.

 

I like your example, but it can't be a 2 is twice as powerful as a 3, it's going to have to be percentages or something, since Ny isn't twice as powerful as The Wonder girls and she's 2 levels up.

 

Anyway, damn now I'm going to be thinking about that all day. :(. Thanks tho!

[Clouded]

Well the multiplier could always be something like 1.2 . That would be a steady increase, but not too ridiculous. And Nyn wouldn't be twice as powerful at two levels above. She'd be 1.44 times stronger than them. Which means should could hold 44% more power than them, if that is the metric for power levels.