Chapter 11

[mwayneknight]

I have a lot to say to what people think about this chapter. I am kinda sad how everyone feels about this. I think we should all understand that RJ is not writing this, and BS is doing the best job that he can.RJ had a flow and way with writing characters that I do not believe anyone can duplicate, which i understood when BS took over the series, I think we should all be blessed and thankful that BS has taken over the series and has done such a wonderful job at it. The first two books he has written are fantastic and very well done with how he was thrown into it. Mat may not be perfect nor anyone else, but we are here to enjoy the series in its finale, not be angry that its not perfect. So i would just say stop picking apart every little peice, and enjoy one of the longest and greatest fantasy series ever written.

 

Thank you.

[thisguy]

I have a lot to say to what people think about this chapter. I am kinda sad how everyone feels about this. I think we should all understand that RJ is not writing this, and BS is doing the best job that he can.RJ had a flow and way with writing characters that I do not believe anyone can duplicate, which i understood when BS took over the series, I think we should all be blessed and thankful that BS has taken over the series and has done such a wonderful job at it. The first two books he has written are fantastic and very well done with how he was thrown into it. Mat may not be perfect nor anyone else, but we are here to enjoy the series in its finale, not be angry that its not perfect. So i would just say stop picking apart every little peice, and enjoy one of the longest and greatest fantasy series ever written.

 

Thank you.

I've decided that I am not going to read Chapter 11 until the book's out (unless I can't resist the urge at some point ;)). That said, I agree. You can't expect any writer to write the way RJ wrote this book. It's his baby, and always will be. He understood these characters in a way nobody else can ever hope to, they were literally part of him. Since we can only guess how RJ would have written certain things differently, I'd say we should just say thanks and move on.

 

I also saw someone here mention that BS had said that some of the chapters or bits of chapters that he had written people thought RJ had written and vice versa.

[TootThatHorn]

I have a lot to say to what people think about this chapter. I am kinda sad how everyone feels about this. I think we should all understand that RJ is not writing this, and BS is doing the best job that he can.RJ had a flow and way with writing characters that I do not believe anyone can duplicate, which i understood when BS took over the series, I think we should all be blessed and thankful that BS has taken over the series and has done such a wonderful job at it. The first two books he has written are fantastic and very well done with how he was thrown into it. Mat may not be perfect nor anyone else, but we are here to enjoy the series in its finale, not be angry that its not perfect. So i would just say stop picking apart every little peice, and enjoy one of the longest and greatest fantasy series ever written.

 

Thank you.

 

Picking it apart is well within the rights of the forum. I know you would disagree but just from the tidbits weve gotten and especially this piece of a chapter, I'm severely disappointed. I personally gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was taking over someone else's epic. However reading this chapter really just made me feel as though Brandon took big steps backwards in his writing of the Wheel of Time.

 

So yes, people have every right to not like the criticism but those that critisize have every right to do so. That's simply part of this and you don't simply take over a series like this and expect to come out scott free.

[Suttree]

People need to keep in mind that most of use are not in any way disappointed that BS doesn't do as good a job as RJ is capable of. We are disappointed that Brandon doesnt seem to be doing the best job that Brandon is capable of. Further instead of growth we have seen regression as his involvement with the series has gone on. The problems with TGS and ToM have been well documented so I wont get into them here. What I find increasingly odd is this sentiment that critiquing a literary work means you are in some way not grateful for the job the author has done. That it somehow is a form of disrespect to the author. What to me is far more troubling is the initial fan gratification upon reading new material and the success of the WoT seems to have stalled Brandon's growth as an author. Ignoring the flaws because we are jut happy to get the ending to me does a disservice to both the author and the series. That quite simply should not be good enough for what will be a huge part of how RJs legacys is perceived.

[condonmc]

People need to keep in mind that most of use are not in any way disappointed that BS doesn't do as good a job as RJ is capable of. We are disappointed that Brandon doesnt seem to be doing the best job that Brandon is capable of. Further instead of growth we have seen regression as his involvement with the series has gone on. The problems with TGS and ToM have been well documented so I wont get into them here. What I find increasingly odd is this sentiment that critiquing a literary work means you are in some way not grateful for the job the author has done. That it somehow is a form of disrespect to the author. What to me is far more troubling is the initial fan gratification upon reading new material and the success of the WoT seems to have stalled Brandon's growth as an author. Ignoring the flaws because we are jut happy to get the ending to me does a disservice to both the author and the series. That quite simply should not be good enough for what will be a huge part of how RJs legacys is perceived.

I hate you, but your right...

[Morsker]

I have a lot to say to what people think about this chapter. I am kinda sad how everyone feels about this. I think we should all understand that RJ is not writing this, and BS is doing the best job that he can.RJ had a flow and way with writing characters that I do not believe anyone can duplicate, which i understood when BS took over the series, I think we should all be blessed and thankful that BS has taken over the series and has done such a wonderful job at it. The first two books he has written are fantastic and very well done with how he was thrown into it. Mat may not be perfect nor anyone else, but we are here to enjoy the series in its finale, not be angry that its not perfect. So i would just say stop picking apart every little peice, and enjoy one of the longest and greatest fantasy series ever written.

Keep in mind that much of the criticism is motivated, and not just ad-hoc nit-picking. There's spite over the Cadsuane controversy. In order to make what Brandon did with Cadsuane more "wrong", it helps to accumulate this massive list of everything Brandon has screwed up. There's a bias, when looking for ways to blame Brandon, to find what you're looking for. And once someone posts it as part of an argument, they tend to believe it. I think it's gone too far. At some point, strong emotions stop being an excuse for lack of honesty. "Brandon is terrible," and "I'm mad about Cadsuane" are too very different things, and adults are responsible for what they say.

[Luckers]

Keep in mind that much of the criticism is motivated, and not just ad-hoc nit-picking. There's spite over the Cadsuane controversy. In order to make what Brandon did with Cadsuane more "wrong", it helps to accumulate this massive list of everything Brandon has screwed up. There's a bias, when looking for ways to blame Brandon, to find what you're looking for. And once someone posts it as part of an argument, they tend to believe it. I think it's gone too far. At some point, strong emotions stop being an excuse for lack of honesty. "Brandon is terrible," and "I'm mad about Cadsuane" are too very different things, and adults are responsible for what they say.

 

So... it is your position that the negative opinion of many posters towards Brandon's work as a whole is nothing more than a self-serving emotional reaction generated to lend weight to their specific negativity towards the depiction of Cadsuane?

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a negatively biased response--and, in other words, precisely what you're castigating your opponents for alledgedly doing? I mean you offer no evidence--instead you've simply stated a feeling you've had in response to the situation, and yet for all that, you are offering this feeling as if it is established fact--something that you seem to feel your opponents should simply admit, were they, in your words, 'adults', so obvious is the emotional bias you apparently percieve within their stances.

 

Again, forgive me if I've misunderstood you, I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding you correctly, but there does seem to be considerable amount of 'the pot calling the kettle black' in your post, and that's even without considering whether your points about the kettle are in any way valid--which is subject to considerable question.

[yoniy0]

Hmm, not that I disagree, Luckers, but I think Morsker's observation deserves a reply in itself. No, I don't believe in any way that this is what motivates me on some unconscious level. Partly that's because -- while I do enjoy many characters that I don't think Brandon got exactly right -- my absolute favorite is Rand, and in this case I do think TGS almost completely nailed his voice, and ToM was very gratifying (even if -- while it didn't really have any of his PoV's -- a slight decline in that regard was noticable). But mostly, the points that we've discussed are simply there to be noticed without relying on a mountain of previous assumptions and theories, they're truly clear as day. What's bothering me, as Suttree commented above, is that I don't seem to find many of these things in TWoK (they are present in Mistborn and Alloy, but perhaps Warbreaker was free of most of it as well). If Brandon can do better, why doesn't he here?

 

PS have you heard? SA2 chapter 1 is done

[flinn]

I hope someone reviews this chapter before the final version is sent for publication. Mat is trying to enter Ebou Dar undetected but is riding Pips and under the alias of Mandevwin, both clues the Seanchan can link to him (if Musenge and the other DWG talked about the battle the Prince of the Ravens fought to save the Empress). But I guess the Seanchan haven't distributed a comprehensive profile of their list of "Most Wanted" people to all the gates.

 

From the two excerpts available so far, it is looking like AMoL will be a good exercise in patient reading. Mat is still off, Ebou Dar and the Rahad seem to be off; and the Seanchan seem to be off as well.

 

This is the first time in the whole series that someone discovers and counts Mat's (or Thom's) hidden knives. That just felt strange. And then Mat, upon discovering that the danger is greater than he originally thought and that he is wanted, puts on his hat and leaves off the bandage and walks out the door. Maybe his plan is to be arrested and taken to the Tarasin palace?!

 

On a lighter note, it is likely that Mat is "wanted" to be delivered to the Empress in person; and that he misunderstood the assassins dialogue between Galgan and Tuon to spur him to go to her directly. In the Palace, he'll be announced as PotR; and Galgan will be impressed by Mat's military expertise and remain under Mat's command.

 

Who said he was "wanted" or anything about being "arrested"?

You want to criticize based on your assumptions.....

 

Tuon knows Mat will try to sneak in, thats what Mat does. You should read the series called Wheel of Time and you would know more about the character named Matrim Cauthon.

[yoniy0]

Who said he was "wanted" or anything about being "arrested"?

No one said he was to be arrested, but he was definitely wanted (which isn't the same as being wanted for a crime):

“The one the guards have been looking for!” Kathana said. She looked to Mat. “Light! Every soldier in Ebou Dar has been told to watch for your face. How did you make it through the city gates?”

As for the rest, I think it's about that time again, so here goes: play nice, everyone (sorry James, that's usually your thing, isn't it?)

[he who comes with a bong]

Who said he was "wanted" or anything about being "arrested"?

No one said he was to be arrested, but he was definitely wanted (which isn't the same as being wanted for a crime):

“The one the guards have been looking for!” Kathana said. She looked to Mat. “Light! Every soldier in Ebou Dar has been told to watch for your face. How did you make it through the city gates?”

As for the rest, I think it's about that time again, so here goes: play nice, everyone (sorry James, that's usually your thing, isn't it?)

 

 

I will giggle quite hard if my Prophecy comes to pass hahahahahahahaah.

[Suttree]

Keep in mind that much of the criticism is motivated, and not just ad-hoc nit-picking. There's spite over the Cadsuane controversy. In order to make what Brandon did with Cadsuane more "wrong", it helps to accumulate this massive list of everything Brandon has screwed up. .

 

Felix is that you? As far as conspiracies theories go this is even farther out than most.

 

You are correct that the criticism is motivated. It's motivated by wanting the series to be the best it can possibly be and seeing RJs legacy handled the way it deserves. To say it somehow ties back to proving a point about a single character is patently absurd. As Yoniy0 said the problems are plain to see. As people do careful rereads they really can not be ignored. You would be far better served trying to dispute the issues or by showcasing the things Brandon has done well. A post like the quoted above really lowers the conversation. Baseless claims such as that have no place on these forums. I have seen the criticism Luckers wrote on request from Brandon and can assure you what you claim above could not be farther from the truth. Quite honety it is insulting to lay out a rational take as I did which showcases how much we care about this series and then have that be the response.

[Terez]

I have a lot to say to what people think about this chapter. I am kinda sad how everyone feels about this. I think we should all understand that RJ is not writing this, and BS is doing the best job that he can.RJ had a flow and way with writing characters that I do not believe anyone can duplicate, which i understood when BS took over the series, I think we should all be blessed and thankful that BS has taken over the series and has done such a wonderful job at it. The first two books he has written are fantastic and very well done with how he was thrown into it. Mat may not be perfect nor anyone else, but we are here to enjoy the series in its finale, not be angry that its not perfect. So i would just say stop picking apart every little peice, and enjoy one of the longest and greatest fantasy series ever written.

Keep in mind that much of the criticism is motivated, and not just ad-hoc nit-picking. There's spite over the Cadsuane controversy. In order to make what Brandon did with Cadsuane more "wrong", it helps to accumulate this massive list of everything Brandon has screwed up. There's a bias, when looking for ways to blame Brandon, to find what you're looking for. And once someone posts it as part of an argument, they tend to believe it. I think it's gone too far. At some point, strong emotions stop being an excuse for lack of honesty. "Brandon is terrible," and "I'm mad about Cadsuane" are too very different things, and adults are responsible for what they say.

 

This has to be one of the strangest arguments I have ever read. You do realize, don't you, that most people who criticize Brandon's writing do so in regard to Mat, and that many of them are Cadsuane-haters and don't have any problem with Brandon's interpretation of her at all?

[avernite]

Hmm.

 

The good: well, I thought the inn was okay, and the Jame character was an abvious set-up for Mat. What and why is not clear to me, but everything about it screams 'deliberately trying to get Mat to out himself' (and as to why he got into that tavern: Ta'veren?)

I thought it made some sense, his coverstory. Blather enough without anything incriminating and they'll pass you.

 

The bad: I too had expected a mention of SOMETHING. Well, there's the one mention of Rand, but I had the idea the FoM would start the morning after the nighttime attack on Caemlyn. We may have missed a paragraph of sadness about Caemlyn... but maybe not.

I did not find his loving Ebou Dar that logical. Plus I find the 'more home than the Two Rivers' thing a bit overdone. Egwene has it with the Tower, explicitly, Perrin with Faile... and those two, IMO, have more reason for it than Mat with Ebou Dar.

 

The ugly: I did not find Mat that odd in TGS or ToM. I found him odd here. Why would a smart Mat out himself to someone he doesn't know at all? I mean, he does it more often, but then before people like the Band, or Thom, or... Plus his liking Tylin? He mentions 'some fondness' before, which I attribute to Stockholm syndrome or a similar effect, but thinking he wants MORE? :S

[MarkDiLillo]

The problem I have is with an obvious lack of effort from BS in getting certain things correct. I legitimately do not feel like he is doing his best, and the fact that he is writing other books AT THE SAME TIME furthers my belief.

 

It's one thing to just not be able to duplicate RJ's skills. It is quite another when details that any fan can point out instantly are incorrect and when characters are written to act and think in a way that is so off base from the rest of the series that it makes 90% of the fans wonder what's going on.

 

My takes is that he legitimately loves WoT, but is not putting enough effort into this and is instead treating it like "just another project to grind through". Look at it from his perspective...the moment he went over the notes and knew the ending to the story with all the details RJ has ever written...that's when his excitement faded. He isn't enamored with WoT anymore; it is just work that he has to get off his desk. And in his hurry to get it off his desk (so that he can work on his own projects that he is no doubt enamored with) he is messing everything up in a way that can only happen when you dont spend the time to do things right.

 

There was a reason it took RJ so long to write these things. The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series and very few people would complain that anything was off. As it is now, 9 out of 10 times it is pretty clear which parts BS wrote.

[thisguy]

The problem I have is with an obvious lack of effort from BS in getting certain things correct. I legitimately do not feel like he is doing his best, and the fact that he is writing other books AT THE SAME TIME furthers my belief.

 

It's one thing to just not be able to duplicate RJ's skills. It is quite another when details that any fan can point out instantly are incorrect and when characters are written to act and think in a way that is so off base from the rest of the series that it makes 90% of the fans wonder what's going on.

 

My takes is that he legitimately loves WoT, but is not putting enough effort into this and is instead treating it like "just another project to grind through". Look at it from his perspective...the moment he went over the notes and knew the ending to the story with all the details RJ has ever written...that's when his excitement faded. He isn't enamored with WoT anymore; it is just work that he has to get off his desk. And in his hurry to get it off his desk (so that he can work on his own projects that he is no doubt enamored with) he is messing everything up in a way that can only happen when you dont spend the time to do things right.

 

There was a reason it took RJ so long to write these things. The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series and very few people would complain that anything was off. As it is now, 9 out of 10 times it is pretty clear which parts BS wrote.

Well, maybe that's the problem right there, he doesn't have enough time.

[MarkDiLillo]

The problem I have is with an obvious lack of effort from BS in getting certain things correct. I legitimately do not feel like he is doing his best, and the fact that he is writing other books AT THE SAME TIME furthers my belief.

 

It's one thing to just not be able to duplicate RJ's skills. It is quite another when details that any fan can point out instantly are incorrect and when characters are written to act and think in a way that is so off base from the rest of the series that it makes 90% of the fans wonder what's going on.

 

My takes is that he legitimately loves WoT, but is not putting enough effort into this and is instead treating it like "just another project to grind through". Look at it from his perspective...the moment he went over the notes and knew the ending to the story with all the details RJ has ever written...that's when his excitement faded. He isn't enamored with WoT anymore; it is just work that he has to get off his desk. And in his hurry to get it off his desk (so that he can work on his own projects that he is no doubt enamored with) he is messing everything up in a way that can only happen when you dont spend the time to do things right.

 

There was a reason it took RJ so long to write these things. The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series and very few people would complain that anything was off. As it is now, 9 out of 10 times it is pretty clear which parts BS wrote.

Well, maybe that's the problem right there, he doesn't have enough time.

 

He has enough time to write other books while he finishes WoT so that is clearly not the issue.

[Suttree]

The problem I have is with an obvious lack of effort from BS in getting certain things correct. I legitimately do not feel like he is doing his best, and the fact that he is writing other books AT THE SAME TIME furthers my belief.

 

It's one thing to just not be able to duplicate RJ's skills. It is quite another when details that any fan can point out instantly are incorrect and when characters are written to act and think in a way that is so off base from the rest of the series that it makes 90% of the fans wonder what's going on.

 

My takes is that he legitimately loves WoT, but is not putting enough effort into this and is instead treating it like "just another project to grind through". Look at it from his perspective...the moment he went over the notes and knew the ending to the story with all the details RJ has ever written...that's when his excitement faded. He isn't enamored with WoT anymore; it is just work that he has to get off his desk. And in his hurry to get it off his desk (so that he can work on his own projects that he is no doubt enamored with) he is messing everything up in a way that can only happen when you dont spend the time to do things right.

 

There was a reason it took RJ so long to write these things. The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series and very few people would complain that anything was off. As it is now, 9 out of 10 times it is pretty clear which parts BS wrote.

Well, maybe that's the problem right there, he doesn't have enough time.

 

He has enough time to write other books while he finishes WoT so that is clearly not the issue.

 

The books were most certainly rushed through the process. I'm not clear on how much he worked on other projects during that time but the overall process for the project was not handled well.

[yoniy0]

The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series

It is usually clear, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He said it would be from the start, that he's not going to try mimicking Jim's voice, and I was okay with that. Also, we have to remember that everything that reaches us has been gone over by at least 3 other people, so we need to think of it in the context of why didn't Harriet, Maria and Alan think that there's something wrong with this or that detail. Truly, I think Brandon set forth to do his very best with these books. It's probably our overwhelming support after TGS that made him fall into a routine that's less than perfect.

 

He has enough time to write other books while he finishes WoT so that is clearly not the issue.

To be fair, he's only ever worked on different projects in between, and I accept his explanation that he can't do WoT non-stop for 5 years. It's good to clear the pipes from time to time.

[thisguy]

The problem I have is with an obvious lack of effort from BS in getting certain things correct. I legitimately do not feel like he is doing his best, and the fact that he is writing other books AT THE SAME TIME furthers my belief.

 

It's one thing to just not be able to duplicate RJ's skills. It is quite another when details that any fan can point out instantly are incorrect and when characters are written to act and think in a way that is so off base from the rest of the series that it makes 90% of the fans wonder what's going on.

 

My takes is that he legitimately loves WoT, but is not putting enough effort into this and is instead treating it like "just another project to grind through". Look at it from his perspective...the moment he went over the notes and knew the ending to the story with all the details RJ has ever written...that's when his excitement faded. He isn't enamored with WoT anymore; it is just work that he has to get off his desk. And in his hurry to get it off his desk (so that he can work on his own projects that he is no doubt enamored with) he is messing everything up in a way that can only happen when you dont spend the time to do things right.

 

There was a reason it took RJ so long to write these things. The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series and very few people would complain that anything was off. As it is now, 9 out of 10 times it is pretty clear which parts BS wrote.

Well, maybe that's the problem right there, he doesn't have enough time.

 

He has enough time to write other books while he finishes WoT so that is clearly not the issue.

If RJ's team wanted him to only write the WoT, maybe he would not have done it to begin with. They should have gotten a great ghost writer instead of a succesful novelist with his own series.

[thisguy]

The simple truth is that if these books were done correctly then we would not know who wrote what parts of the series

It is usually clear, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He said it would be from the start, that he's not going to try mimicking Jim's voice, and I was okay with that. Also, we have to remember that everything that reaches us has been gone over by at least 3 other people, so we need to think of it in the context of why didn't Harriet, Maria and Alan think that there's something wrong with this or that detail. Truly, I think Brandon set forth to do his very best with these books. It's probably our overwhelming support after TGS that made him fall into a routine that's less than perfect.

 

He has enough time to write other books while he finishes WoT so that is clearly not the issue.

To be fair, he's only ever worked on different projects in between, and I accept his explanation that he can't do WoT non-stop for 5 years. It's good to clear the pipes from time to time.

 

I completely agree with this. He seems like a fall guy the way he gets all the flack.

 

I don't only think it's a need to clear the pipes. If the man has his own ideas, he probably doesn't want to lose them or let them grow stale as he finishes somebody else's work.

 

It's just an unfortunate situation. Even overlooking the fact that a beloved writer has passed, the whole endeavor would probably disappoint a group of people no matter what.

[Suttree]

On a slightly different note one name I never see mentioned who I think may have done well finishing the WoT is J.V. Jones. Now I know she has had issues with deadlines on her own "Sword of Shadows" series so it may not have worked time wise but I think her style would have been a great fit. Whether she would have been willing now that is another issue entirely.

 

To be clear I am very thakful to Brandon in finishing the series. At the same time the end result is not what I expected and we have seen better work out of him than what we got in TGS and ToM. Again to me this is the issue. Is he continuing to grow and push himself as an author and did we get his best effort on this project? The willingness to shrug off areas that he struggles with is troubling to say the least.

[he who comes with a bong]

On a slightly different note one name I never see mentioned who I think may have done well finishing the WoT is J.V. Jones. Now I know she has had issues with deadlines on her own "Sword of Shadows" series so it may not have worked time wise but I think her style would have been a great fit. Whether she would have been willing now that is another issue entirely.

 

To be clear I am very thakful to Brandon in finishing the series. At the same time the end result is not what I expected and we have seen better work out of him than what we got in TGS and ToM. Again to me this is the issue. Is he continuing to grow and push himself as an author and did we get his best effort on this project? The willingness to shrug off areas that he struggles with is troubling to say the least.

 

It is hard to say for sure if we did get his best effort out of him, if you were to follow all of his tweet and fb posts he seemed to be doing a shitload of other things while he was writing this last book from Magic games to all sorts of different CONS. Everytime i saw somethign like that i thought to my self he should be concentrating on the book not playing magic. I have read one other book by him, and in all honesty ill probally not read it again i kinda felt it lacked strength storywise and plot wise,Elantris and ill probally never read anythign by him again.

[jwood01]

Wow. Just read it the chapter excerpt. Hopefully the release of this Mat excerpt was intended too lower our expectations so that we are pleasantly surprised when the writing in aMoL is better than this.

 

Just wanted to add my initial gut reaction.

[jwood01]

Another thing just hit me. Since when does Mat even consider ordering Ebou Dari ale? Even at Setalle Anan's inn he bypasses it because it is disgusting. i am currently on tPoD in my re-read, so I could be forgetting that he developes a taste for it later on, but in LoC and aCoS he claims it is undrinkable.