Chapter 11

[yoniy0]

why people whine

Careful there, you're close to stepping over the line.

 

That and, seriously, in a situation such as Mat's, it's really usually not as horrid an experience for men as for women.

This is one place where you can only speak for yourself, and not half the race. I might even agree with you, but I will never presume to do so on behalf of all men everywhere, and neither should you.

[Suttree]

That and, seriously, in a situation such as Mat's, it's really usually not as horrid an experience for men as for women.

 

Which shows zero understanding on the issues surrounding sexual assault against a man. While what you say may be true for some research has shown it most certainly isnt the norm. Ironic too that the "whine" comment touches so closely in one of the main reasons why most male rape goes unreported.

 

As for the rest of your post see above. RJ called it rape.

[Zorlon]

Careful there, you're close to stepping over the line.

You're misreading my tone, and so I apologize for not being more clear. By "whine" I did not intend to imply I saw the complaints as baseless. I was just noting that complaint was being voiced. For example, nobody would ever fault me for whining that time I had a hilariously painful accident, but I was still whining.

 

I am not writing this to justify my lack of clarity, but just to make it clear I had no ill intent. I will be more careful in the future now that I see how tender this board's sensitivities are.

This is one place where you can only speak for yourself' date=' and not half the race. I might even agree with you, but I will never presume to do so on behalf of all men everywhere, and neither should you.

[/quote']

You're right, i should have said "in general". Oh wait, I said "usually" which pretty clearly has the same contextual meaning.

 

I wasn't speaking for half the race, I was speaking in general terms about something generally accepted as fact.

 

Maybe you should be more careful in reading my words before accusing me of making such absolute statements.

[Zorlon]

That and, seriously, in a situation such as Mat's, it's really usually not as horrid an experience for men as for women.

 

Which shows zero understanding on the issues surrounding sexual assault against a man. While what you say may be true for some research has shown it most certainly isnt the norm. Ironic too that the "whine" comment touches so closely in one of the main reasons why most male rape goes unreported.

Quit being such a hothead, I never said rape of men is not a serious thing, nor did I imply it.

 

What I did say was not everyone will react to everything as you think they ought, and a piece of fiction works better when it is a peice of fiction in which characters are their own personalities not soapboxes from which to preach a message.

 

As for my comment that it is not a big deal for men, in your eagerness o shout down someone you consider wrong you didn't even stop to think the situation through.

 

First not all sexual assault is equally traumatic. Being pressured into sex by someone in a position of authority is bad, but other forms are even worse. And not every form will be as bad for men. Especially not an unnattatched young man like Mat.

 

It's not so unbelievable someone in his position isn't particularly bitter about the situation looking back. He certainly wasn't happy about it at the time.

 

As for the rest of your post see above. RJ called it rape.

Where did I say it wasn't?

 

My main point is it's not impossible for someone like Mat to look back on a situation like that in the way he does. It's not something to complain about the WoT is a peice of fiction not a soapbox.

[Suttree]

I wasn't speaking for half the race, I was speaking in general terms about something generally accepted as fact.

 

The only place it's generally accepted as fact is amongst those who haven't studied and researched the topic. Again you are free to state how you feel but don't present the above as if it's true when it runs counter to all research professionals have done on the topic.

 

First not all sexual assault is equally traumatic. Being pressured into sex by someone in a position of authority is bad, but other forms are even worse. And not every form will be as bad for men. Especially not an unnattatched young man like Mat.

 

You do realize you're just digging a deeper hole here correct?

 

As for the rest I thank you not to presume to call me a hot head or call a reasoned post "shouting" you down. In addition why try to define what people can or cant post about? Two members of this board almost immediately pointed out issues in your post and your response it to say it our fault? Just think on that a bit.

[he who comes with a bong]

Wow this has really went on a downward spiral.... will this be the first spolier topic to be locked ? will this be the start of a new topic all about male versus female forced sexual situations? will this be the end of peoples accounts on dragonmount.........

 

 

Stayed tuned Wheel of Time fans for the next episode of The Days of the Land of Rand.

 

hahahahahahahahah

[TootThatHorn]

I get the distinct impression that a lot of you read Mat sections and are too judgemental, annoyed and down right unforgiving.

 

Reading this thread just annoys me as a result. Will all you fishwives handwringing about this book change it one iota? No. Will it serve to further compound and reinforce your own frustration? Yes. Will it also result in an exaggerated annoyance because you see problems which don't exist? Quite possibly.

 

Tale the dream spike discussion that has just happened. Rand obviously knows about dream spikes. Why are you even discussing the possibility that he doesn't? Strikes me as a bit self flagulisitic.

 

The boots part really pushed your buttons, huh? Ohhh Mat is talking about boots again, hoooooowwwww repettetive oh let's hate this guy that says the same stuff again and again.... By the same logic we should all hate ourselves on this forum! This very thread is full of repeats. Personally the part that annoyed me was the 'you've got a winner' which reads like an americanism.

 

Why does no one else accept that Tuon expects assassins so using ones that will fail is a way of almost complimenting her? Or something like that. I don't get what has caused the friction here about that.

 

What is with people saying Mat was sexually assaulted, that's a bit much isn't it? Him looking back fondly is like when you look back on a crazy x girlfriend..

 

 

As you can tell this that'd annoyed me more than the book itself. I will just stop writing this thread rather than talk about the double use of the word literally earlier or the lack of understanding of medieval non American history.

 

I am disregarding every word of this.

[Zorlon]

Wow this has really went on a downward spiral.... will this be the first spolier topic to be locked ? will this be the start of a new topic all about male versus female forced sexual situations? will this be the end of peoples accounts on dragonmount.........

 

 

Stayed tuned Wheel of Time fans for the next episode of The Days of the Land of Rand.

 

hahahahahahahahah

Your post makes me wish this board had a like button.

[yoniy0]

Zorlon, when you say 'usually' you presume to speak for the majority of the male gender.

[Zorlon]

The only place it's generally accepted as fact is amongst those who haven't studied and researched the topic. Again you are free to state how you feel but don't present the above as if it's true when it runs counter to all research professionals have done on the topic.

Can you name this research?

 

You do realize you're just digging a deeper hole here correct?

All sexual aggression is equally traumatic? And all people respond to all trauma in the same manner.

 

Are those real things you just said?

 

You seem to be vastly underestimating how complex a thing like this is and how many factors go into everyone's feelings about it.

In addition why try to define what people can or cant post about?

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

[Suttree]

All sexual aggression is equally traumatic? And all people respond to all trauma in the same manner.

 

Are those real things you just said?

 

No because i never said them. They are just straw men you are presenting.

 

You seem to be vastly underestimating how complex a thing like this is and how many factors go into everyone's feelings about it.

 

Pot meet kettle.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

 

See comments about whining, not something to complain about and soapbox.

[Morsker]

RJ himself said that the Tylin-Mat situation was supposed to be a humorous way of calling attention to the fact that female sexual aggression is treated so differently from male sexual aggression. In other words, if Mat had done to Tylin what Tylin did to Mat, we would have called it rape. In fact, RJ and Harriet did call it rape, but most readers don't see it that way. Yes, Mat liked it, more so as time went on. That doesn't change the fact. And Elayne seemed to think it was no less than Mat deserved for chasing women all the time, even though the women he chased were those who wanted to be chased. That's not far different from women being told they deserve rape because they are generally promiscuous or wear promiscuous clothing. "Asking for it."

If RJ really intended it as a rape analogy, and not sexual harassment, then it's bad writing. A funny rape analogy just doesn't work. It's no surprise that many fans prefer to interpret it as sexual harassment; not that that's funny either, but if you have to stretch to make an analogy fit, it's the easier choice.

 

Also "asking for it" analogies are extremely overused; it's almost to the point Nazi analogies were 15 years ago. People say "Your argument reminds me of rape victims asking for it. Therefore, I win," to everything under the sun these days. So unfortunately I'm so jaded of this particular analogy that I have a hard time forming an opinion of RJ's use of it. It has the same humor problem though. Elayne thinks Mat "asking for it" is funny, and that makes the whole thing fail for me.

[Zorlon]

No, they are straw men you are presenting.

 

Well no, they were my point from the get go.

 

The point to which you took so much exception that you started this kerfluffle.

 

Pot meet kettle.

No, i am well aware of the complexities and their various possible manifestations.

 

To my eyes it looks as though you've been saying there is only one way anything vaguely related to this subject can go, and details and personalities, and histories, and pre-existent expectations of power and propriety are all irrelevant factors.

 

And it looks like you're convinced there's only one way things can go to the extent that when I wrote I see nothing wrong with Mat's reaction under the circumstances you read "I see nothing wrong with sexual aggression against men, they'll like it. Not a big deal to guys, stop being a wimp" Which is not even in the same ball park as what i wrote. It doesn't even play on the same sort of field.

See comments about whining, not something to complain about an soapbox.

I know what i said. I also know what I didn't say.

 

Where did I say you ought to not be free to voice your opinion? I just said fiction works better as fiction, not a soapbox.

 

I think you're wrong and I'm happy to tell you why, but that doesn't mean I think you should sit in the corner and shut up and it doesn't mean I'm unaware i might be the one who is mistaken, and if you convinced me that is the case then I would only be happy.

[Terez]

RJ himself said that the Tylin-Mat situation was supposed to be a humorous way of calling attention to the fact that female sexual aggression is treated so differently from male sexual aggression. In other words, if Mat had done to Tylin what Tylin did to Mat, we would have called it rape. In fact, RJ and Harriet did call it rape, but most readers don't see it that way. Yes, Mat liked it, more so as time went on. That doesn't change the fact. And Elayne seemed to think it was no less than Mat deserved for chasing women all the time, even though the women he chased were those who wanted to be chased. That's not far different from women being told they deserve rape because they are generally promiscuous or wear promiscuous clothing. "Asking for it."

If RJ really intended it as a rape analogy, and not sexual harassment, then it's bad writing.

 

How so? It was clearly on the extreme borderline of 'consensual'; RJ wrote it in such a way that it seems like Mat's body responds to the situation against his will. This is probably how RJ (and many other men) envision such a situation, and why they find the concept of 'male rape' to be somewhat incomprehensible. Which is why RJ chose to write it in a humorous way, partly as a joke on the concept, and partly as a joke on the double-standard. He used a phrase in another context, that of female romance novels: "It is a circumstance that is not rape on technicality."

 

Also "asking for it" analogies are extremely overused...

 

It's not an analogy. An analogy is when you compare, say, robbery to rape, or Obama to Hitler. This is comparing rape to rape.

[TyphoonBlade]

As he was sexually assaulted at knife point, no not really.

What i don't get is why people whine that he isn't so properly traumatized by and hateful of the experience as they would like him to be.

 

Different people react differently to different situations. That particular situation was annoying, but not a big deal, for Mat. That's all.

 

The WoT is a book about some various people dealing with a trying moment in their fictional world's history, not a manual on dealing with sexual aggression.

 

Not everybody is going to respond the way you think they ought. It makes for lousy reading when every character's response to every stimuli is the predictable formulaic stock attitude. Lousy and unbelievable.

 

That and, seriously, in a situation such as Mat's, it's really usually not as horrid an experience for men as for women.

 

What would be unbelievable about it being traumatic? I'm not saying that everyone responds to everything in the the same way, if Mat's over it that's all good, but it's "lousy and unbelievable" that Mat would look back on it and think hey that time I spent with Tylin was fun.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Careful there, you're close to stepping over the line.

I will be more careful in the future now that I see how tender this board's sensitivities are.

 

I can't help but laugh at this statement coming from a guy who got all offended when someone jokingly said they would give their wife up for an early copy of AMofL. The sweet irony.

[yoniy0]

Let's quit this line before bong's prophecy is fulfilled, okay?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Let's quit this line before bong's prophecy is fulfilled, okay?

 

Bet you never thought you'd write that sentence.

[Morsker]

If RJ really intended it as a rape analogy, and not sexual harassment, then it's bad writing.

 

How so? It was clearly on the extreme borderline of 'consensual'; RJ wrote it in such a way that it seems like Mat's body responds to the situation against his will. This is probably how RJ (and many other men) envision such a situation, and why they find the concept of 'male rape' to be somewhat incomprehensible. Which is why RJ chose to write it in a humorous way, partly as a joke on the concept, and partly as a joke on the double-standard. He used a phrase in another context, that of female romance novels: "It is a circumstance that is not rape on technicality."

I'd agree if the humor were a starting point, and it led into some more serious commentary, but it didn't. It stayed funny all the way through.

 

Also "asking for it" analogies are extremely overused...

It's not an analogy. An analogy is when you compare, say, robbery to rape, or Obama to Hitler. This is comparing rape to rape.

The "asking for it" is an analogy to the way we blame victims. In the archetypical case, it's saying the victim should feel ashamed, that the victim shouldn't complain and only increases her shame by complaining. But when Elayne applies it to Mat, it's just a gag. She isn't blaming Mat for anything, just laughing at how funny she thinks the situation is. So to me it reads like RJ wanted to write "asking for it" as commentary, but it didn't fit. But he wrote it anyway.

 

That's also why I think the themes would have worked better, if RJ was trying for sexual harassment instead of rape. Sexual harassment is something that people do laugh off when they shouldn't. But laughing at rape is too much of a stretch; I can't do anything but gawk at it and think something must've been "lost in translation".

[fionwe1987]

That's also why I think the themes would have worked better, if RJ was trying for sexual harassment instead of rape. Sexual harassment is something that people do laugh off when they shouldn't. But laughing at rape is too much of a stretch; I can't do anything but gawk at it and think something must've been "lost in translation".

People do laugh at rape. Not so much today, perhaps, and not so much in Western society, but claims of rape from women have often been met with laughter and ridicule, and accusations of "deserving it". Elayne's response to Mat is fairly typical of how many people, even today, would respond to a man's claim that he was raped.

 

The problem with the way this is written is not that people in the story think it is funny. Even Mat laughing it off and calling it a "merry chase" or something like that isn't problematic. That actually can be how people deal with such situations. The problem stems from the idea that the readers should find it funny. RJ could have kept the events and the dialogue and characterization exactly the same, but altered the tone such that the reader took a more serious view of the situation. That he did it different is disappointing, because it squandered this wonderful opportunity he had to use his created world and its society to make a very relevant point about a grave issue in the real world.

 

I think that stems from RJ's own discomfort with the topic. Which also likely explains the absolute lack of any homosexual or bisexual male characters. While some may say that even if his discomfort prevented from exploring the topic well, RJs decision to explore it at all should be lauded, I personally feel it would have been better if he hadn't made the half-baked effort.

 

PS: All this is not an argument against what Morsker said. I actually agree with most of what you said.

[yoniy0]

Well, read it in English then. There should be nothing funny about being led to a bed and your cloths peeled off under threat of a knife, and yet I'm sure most of us found that scene humorous. That, perhaps, is what RJ meant for us to think about (or, knowing his sense of humor, he truly did find it funny, and it had to be put to him a certain way for him to understand what's wrong with that).

[Pandemonium]

[Removed]

[Pandemonium]

So how about them Mets?

 

I sure can't wait to read that 70K chapter in AMOL with upwards of 80 POVs

[JenniferL]

We already have a thousand threads on Mat and Tylin. Go find one of those and let's get back to talking about how my husband is too awesome to be believed. Because he is.

[yoniy0]

Oh no, just when we find something else to fixate about other than Brandon's performance... Well, we'll try to keep off that as well. Tell us, Jennifer, how well does Brandon know Seg? Is this gesture (as Terez suggested) aimed at you, or is Brandon honoring Jimmy for himself?