The White Tower And Oaths of Fealty

[yoniy0]

Actually, I think of Egwene as being the exact opposite of that. Instead of her perception changing according to what's best for Egwene, Egwene is actually changing according to her perception of what's best in the world around her. She was going to be a perfect Wisdom, and then a brave adventurer, then an AS, then the perfect Wise One, and finally the best Amyrlin ever. She's like that, adopting whatever she admires and trying with everything she's got to embody it. She is fanatical about it, no doubt, but that's okay; in fact, it could hardly have been different. A quote from the West Wing comes to mind: "The man in that job shouldn't have to be presented with anything! It's for someone who grabs it and holds on to it, for someone who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service! If you don't have that kind of drive, that hubris, how in the hell are you going to make the kind of decisions that stump every other person in this country? How in the hell are you going to hold that kind of power in your hand?"

[Knivy]

Actually, I think of Egwene as being the exact opposite of that. Instead of her perception changing according to what's best for Egwene, Egwene is actually changing according to her perception of what's best in the world around her. She was going to be a perfect Wisdom, and then a brave adventurer, then an AS, then the perfect Wise One, and finally the best Amyrlin ever. She's like that, adopting whatever she admires and trying with everything she's got to embody it. She is fanatical about it, no doubt, but that's okay; in fact, it could hardly have been different. A quote from the West Wing comes to mind: "The man in that job shouldn't have to be presented with anything! It's for someone who grabs it and holds on to it, for someone who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service! If you don't have that kind of drive, that hubris, how in the hell are you going to make the kind of decisions that stump every other person in this country? How in the hell are you going to hold that kind of power in your hand?"

Fair enough. I just think that she has so little consistency in her stances that i find it hard to believe she actually puts significant thought into her actions beyond "what will this do for me?"

 

If a politician changed stances as obviously and as frequently as her, noone would ever support him/her.

[thisguy]

I agree. The oaths Egwene received are no different from Rand's, and given for the same reason (blackmail). Kiruna and the others could have said "we will not kneel and swear no matter what you do to us" at Dumai's Wells and probably gotten beatings from the Wise Ones as a result. If Sheriam's circle had refused, they would have risked being birched, i.e. stripped naked and flogged in public while the rest of the Tower watches. It's a pretty direct and almost certainly intentional parallel; Rand got nine sworn AS at Dumai's Wells, then Egwene got nine sworn AS shortly afterwards.

 

Isn't it taveren that made the Aes Sedai swear to Rand. Of course there was still some blackmail, at least on Taim's part, though it's still on Rand since he was there and did nothing to stop it.

I'm not sure how Taim has much to do with it aside from enforcing Rand's will. Ta'veren and anger moved both Rand and the AS who swore.

[thisguy]

Actually, I think of Egwene as being the exact opposite of that. Instead of her perception changing according to what's best for Egwene, Egwene is actually changing according to her perception of what's best in the world around her. She was going to be a perfect Wisdom, and then a brave adventurer, then an AS, then the perfect Wise One, and finally the best Amyrlin ever. She's like that, adopting whatever she admires and trying with everything she's got to embody it. She is fanatical about it, no doubt, but that's okay; in fact, it could hardly have been different. A quote from the West Wing comes to mind: "The man in that job shouldn't have to be presented with anything! It's for someone who grabs it and holds on to it, for someone who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service! If you don't have that kind of drive, that hubris, how in the hell are you going to make the kind of decisions that stump every other person in this country? How in the hell are you going to hold that kind of power in your hand?"

I agree with what you say - what bothered me about the oaths she made the women make was what she said just before Faolin and Theodrin offer their fealty. When asked in T'Rond if the Tower will swear fealty to Rand she says no the Tower must be strong and whole, etc.

She is the third Amyrlin in the books alone. Obviously, that's more in two years than normal but also obviously - The Amyrlin is NOT the Tower.

[yoniy0]

When asked in T'Rond if the Tower will swear fealty to Rand she says no the Tower must be strong and whole, etc.

Actually, she said she doesn't think they could, since they don't even swear fealty to the Amyrlin Seat, then added that to swear to a man would be akin to the WO swearing to one of the clan chiefs. It was this very conversation that put her on the course to consider having sisters swear to her, and she's aware of that.

[thisguy]

When asked in T'Rond if the Tower will swear fealty to Rand she says no the Tower must be strong and whole, etc.

Actually, she said she doesn't think they could, since they don't even swear fealty to the Amyrlin Seat, then added that to swear to a man would be akin to the WO swearing to one of the clan chiefs. It was this very conversation that put her on the course to consider having sisters swear to her, and she's aware of that.

Really? There's nothing to show that. The first oaths she takes are offered. I thought that's why she goes that way.

[fionwe1987]

I don't blame Egwene for using whatever tools were available to her; it was a smart move to get Sheriam's circle under her thumb, and she needed any advantage she could get. But it is hypocritical of Egwene to condemn Rand for this in Winter's Heart, saying, "I am not trying to Heal the White Tower just so he can chain Aes Sedai like damane." Which is a very telling statement considering Egwene's feelings about damane. Obviously she considers Rand's actions despicable, yet has never reflected on the morality of having done the same thing herself.

There's a ton of difference between Aes Sedai swearing to an Amyrlin they elected and an Aes Sedai swearing to a male channeler, even if he is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Now, I do think that what Egwene said in tGS to the BA hunters is telling: she informed them that while she found their actions despicable regarding the extra oath, she understood, and would not mind so long as they now released the 10 ferrets from the Oaths.

 

I think that's an indication of what she did with the Saldiar Six plus Nisao after the Tower reunited. At least, those of them that were alive/not at the BT. I think she released them from the Oath, which is why we don't, for example, see Beonin involved in the TAR decoy. Other's of that group, we may assume are by now genuinely respectful of Egwene, like Nisao was shown to be, and therefore might still be working for her of their own will.

 

At least, I hope this is true.

 

Actually, I think of Egwene as being the exact opposite of that. Instead of her perception changing according to what's best for Egwene, Egwene is actually changing according to her perception of what's best in the world around her. She was going to be a perfect Wisdom, and then a brave adventurer, then an AS, then the perfect Wise One, and finally the best Amyrlin ever. She's like that, adopting whatever she admires and trying with everything she's got to embody it. She is fanatical about it, no doubt, but that's okay; in fact, it could hardly have been different. A quote from the West Wing comes to mind: "The man in that job shouldn't have to be presented with anything! It's for someone who grabs it and holds on to it, for someone who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service! If you don't have that kind of drive, that hubris, how in the hell are you going to make the kind of decisions that stump every other person in this country? How in the hell are you going to hold that kind of power in your hand?"

 

I've always loved that quote. The reluctant leader is never a good one. Where some like Perrin and Mat had to be dragged kicking and screaming into acceptance of their roles, Egwene never complained once about being forced to be a sacrificial lamb. The moment the shock wore off, she began to marshall her skills and the skills of those she could trust to secure her position and do the best she could. It takes an entirely different kind of courage and resourcefulness to look at a group that wants to use you to their profit and decide to dedicate yourself to their betterment because you can see that if they were improved they'd be an asset to the world. Egwene truly became Aes Sedai right that moment.

[fionwe1987]

If a politician changed stances as obviously and as frequently as her, noone would ever support him/her.

True, but we never get to see the thought process of those politicians, and we therefore disbeleive them when they claim there's a reason for their change of heart.

 

With Egwene, we know her thoughts, and not once has she changed her mind on a thing because it will make things easier or give her more power.

[thisguy]

Unlike Matt and Perrin, Egwene had to marshall her skills to save her head. If she failed, she would be deposed and stilled and maybe executed.

 

Matt goes kicking and screaming but he never shirks his duty - that duty was created because he accepted it by leading those men at Cairhien. Same with Perrin.

[Suttree]

If a politician changed stances as obviously and as frequently as her, noone would ever support him/her.

True, but we never get to see the thought process of those politicians, and we therefore disbeleive them when they claim there's a reason for their change of heart.

 

With Egwene, we know her thoughts, and not once has she changed her mind on a thing because it will make things easier or give her more power.

 

This.

 

When people talk about Egwene wanting power I hope they realize it isnt for personnel gain as Knivy claims above. We are consistently hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels for reforming the WT and having a unified front to face the shadow at TG. All she does is working for what she believe is the greater good.

[yoniy0]

Really? There's nothing to show that. The first oaths she takes are offered. I thought that's why she goes that way.

You didn't so much ask me for affirmation as declared that I was wrong, but close enough I guess. Here you go:

The Wise Ones had their part in this, though it was not exactly ji'e'toh. "If I'm to take on that responsibility, then you must have an obligation too. I must be able to trust you utterly, and I can only see one way to do that." The Wise Ones, and then Faolain and Theodrin. "You must swear fealty."

 

Unlike Matt and Perrin, Egwene had to marshall her skills to save her head. If she failed, she would be deposed and stilled and maybe executed.

I really don't think she's the only one to have her life depend upon taking on the responsibility.

"If you do not go to Rhuidean," the woman on the right said, "you will die."

[thisguy]

Really? There's nothing to show that. The first oaths she takes are offered. I thought that's why she goes that way.

You didn't so much ask me for affirmation as declared that I was wrong, but close enough I guess. Here you go:

The Wise Ones had their part in this, though it was not exactly ji'e'toh. "If I'm to take on that responsibility, then you must have an obligation too. I must be able to trust you utterly, and I can only see one way to do that." The Wise Ones, and then Faolain and Theodrin. "You must swear fealty."

 

Unlike Matt and Perrin, Egwene had to marshall her skills to save her head. If she failed, she would be deposed and stilled and maybe executed.

I really don't think she's the only one to have her life depend upon taking on the responsibility.

"If you do not go to Rhuidean," the woman on the right said, "you will die."

Hmmm? I didn't declare you wrong, I said that it wasn't mentioned. And, that ji'e'toh reference has nothing to do with the WO's mentioning an oath, it has to do with Toh. There's a difference as far as I can see.

 

I see what you're saying about life depending upon their responsibility but there's a difference. The AS put Egwene there so if they fail she takes the fall. Mat becomes leader of the band by accident. He didn't have to save those men by telling them the Shaido were luring them in and he looked for a way out the whole time. She didn't look for a way out and she was cast into her role by those looking to use her. There's a difference.

 

I compared her to Mat and Perrin, not Moiraine. I am talking about leadership responsibility.

[yoniy0]

First, saying there's no support after I claim there is is declaring me wrong. Second, she says "the Wise Ones, and then Faolain and Theodrin" meaning the idea originated after her talk with the WO, then gained substance with the two's oaths, which was what I said originally (that the WO put her mind on the path to it).

 

Finally, of course Egwene didn't look for a way out. I thought that was my point, mine and fionwe1987's, wasn't it?

[thisguy]

First, saying there's no support after I claim there is is declaring me wrong. Second, she says "the Wise Ones, and then Faolain and Theodrin" meaning the idea originated after her talk with the WO, then gained substance with the two's oaths, which was what I said originally (that the WO put her mind on the path to it).

 

Finally, of course Egwene didn't look for a way out. I thought that was my point, mine and fionwe1987's, wasn't it?

I apologize if I offended you, that was not what I meant to do.

 

The WO's comment is said to be linked to Ji'e'toh. That's why she won't take on the responsibility for what they did with Lan and keeping it secret.

[yoniy0]

Oh, I'm not offended, but my spidy-sense is tingling. I just prefer people were more civil to each other around here, is all (mainly because when they aren't it tends to generate more work for me ).

 

On point, the part about their needing to reassure her before she took on responsibility is inspired by (though not the same as) ji'e'toh; the part about fealty (if you'll look again at the quote, it's the last sentence) is first inspired by the WO, then by Faolain and Theodrin.

[thisguy]

Oh, I'm not offended, but my spidy-sense is tingling. I just prefer people were more civil to each other around here, is all (mainly because when they aren't it tends to generate more work for me ).

 

On point, the part about their needing to reassure her before she took on responsibility is inspired by (though not the same as) ji'e'toh; the part about fealty (if you'll look again at the quote, it's the last sentence) is first inspired by the WO, then by Faolain and Theodrin.

No problem, and I understand. I modded a crazy site for a while and it was like dealing with unruly children. I only purposely got testy with one person here and that's because I felt they were trying to underhandedly give digs to myself and others here. If I came off that way with you, and I can see how it would be taken that way, I apologize sincerely. I'm actually about to not answer someone here for the same reason - I will get nasty and what's the point?

 

I see what you're saying about the quote. Nice one.

[Knivy]

If a politician changed stances as obviously and as frequently as her, noone would ever support him/her.

True, but we never get to see the thought process of those politicians, and we therefore disbeleive them when they claim there's a reason for their change of heart.

 

With Egwene, we know her thoughts, and not once has she changed her mind on a thing because it will make things easier or give her more power.

 

Youre correct here, but her thoughts tend to lead me to believe her more simple minded. Id actually prefer the one who is after power since there would be a rational progression in their thoughts.

 

She is smart enough in a personal sense and is excellent bullying/blackmail, which makes her dangerous, but she is too easily convinced to be trusted to not see something shiny and get distracted from her previous path, so long term plans, say goodbye. She has gotten lucky so far and every time she does this it ends up well, but i wouldnt trust that luck to hold out forever.

 

If a politician changed stances as obviously and as frequently as her, noone would ever support him/her.

True, but we never get to see the thought process of those politicians, and we therefore disbeleive them when they claim there's a reason for their change of heart.

 

With Egwene, we know her thoughts, and not once has she changed her mind on a thing because it will make things easier or give her more power.

 

This.

 

When people talk about Egwene wanting power I hope they realize it isnt for personnel gain as Knivy claims above. We are consistently hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels for reforming the WT and having a unified front to face the shadow at TG. All she does is working for what she believe is the greater good.

 

Sorry, if I said that her not letting a chance for power pass was for personal gain. She believes its for the greater good, and her power is only a tool for the tower and the betterment of the world. She does do everything she does after she is raised to unify the tower. I wasnt trying to explain her motivation, just her patterns of action.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Oh, I'm not offended, but my spidy-sense is tingling. I just prefer people were more civil to each other around here, is all (mainly because when they aren't it tends to generate more work for me ).

 

On point, the part about their needing to reassure her before she took on responsibility is inspired by (though not the same as) ji'e'toh; the part about fealty (if you'll look again at the quote, it's the last sentence) is first inspired by the WO, then by Faolain and Theodrin.

Love the Spidy Sense tingling reference.

[fionwe1987]

Youre correct here, but her thoughts tend to lead me to believe her more simple minded. Id actually prefer the one who is after power since there would be a rational progression in their thoughts.

You think Egwene is simple-minded? Ooookayyy...

She is smart enough in a personal sense and is excellent bullying/blackmail, which makes her dangerous, but she is too easily convinced to be trusted to not see something shiny and get distracted from her previous path, so long term plans, say goodbye. She has gotten lucky so far and every time she does this it ends up well, but i wouldnt trust that luck to hold out forever.

Name one instance where interest in something new has interfered with her ability to plan ahead.

I wasnt trying to explain her motivation, just her patterns of action.

Except that is somewhat pointless. When you know both motivation and action, but ignore the motivation and just look at the actions, you can hardly expect to come to right conclusions.

[yoniy0]

Except that is somewhat pointless. When you know both motivation and action, but ignore the motivation and just look at the actions, you can hardly expect to come to right conclusions.

Hmm, I don't know about that. No PoV is completely reliable, and the youngsters' least of all. Through careful examination of the actions a certain character takes you can analyze another level of motivation not readily described in their PoV's. Such as, Egwene really does want to rule the world herself; that's right there in Ravens, even. Not that I think this desire drives her to action which is counterproductive to the causes she believes in, mind you.

[fionwe1987]

Hmm, I don't know about that. No PoV is completely reliable, and the youngsters' least of all. Through careful examination of the actions a certain character takes you can analyze another level of motivation not readily described in their PoV's. Such as, Egwene really does want to rule the world herself; that's right there in Ravens, even. Not that I think this desire drives her to action which is counterproductive to the causes she believes in, mind you.

But this kind of analysis still can't be done by ignoring motivation. People have claimed, for example, that for all her stated motives, Egwene's actions have all been about increasing her own power. Except if you compare motivation to action, we see that itsn't quite true. Her major (non-stated) motivation seems to be to ensure that she herself is not controlled by anyone... a throwback reaction to her damane days.

 

But you can't reach such conclusions if you simply let her stated motivations be, and focus on actions alone.

[BFG]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

[thisguy]

Egwene wants to know everything - I don't mean gossip, necessarily. I mean, she wants to learn everything she can. She actually has thoughts dealing with this somewhere between books 2-6 a few times. She's a sponge. She's definitely not my favorite character but I don't think she's just a greedy slob.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene wants to know everything - I don't mean gossip, necessarily. I mean, she wants to learn everything she can. She actually has thoughts dealing with this somewhere between books 2-6 a few times. She's a sponge. She's definitely not my favorite character but I don't think she's just a greedy slob.

 

As well as wanting to know everything, she wants to be the best at everything, and she's been like that since she was 9 as seen in the prologue of tEotW.

[Maleshub]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

 

I think you've hit on to something that hasn't been discussed in the thread. The oaths of fealty sworn by the old oaths are most likely obselete since the first thing the BA purge did was free an AS of all previous oaths. So the situation stands today that there is no one bound to Egwene by an oath of fealty. She corrected that mistake.

 

Nice catch!