Something new (to me) I noticed about Taim in EotW

[boy]

Ishamael isn't omniscient.

 

Maybe he didn't know who Taim was either.

[pamela]

Has anyone else wondered whether the Red Sisters who captured Taim or the black who helped break him free could have done a 13x13 on him?

 

My reasoning for this is: He was captured by Red's who have a large number of black sisters among them. and the BA planned on breaking him free in order to cause Rand trouble by committing atrocities in the Dragon Reborn's name.

 

Then Rand issues his amnesty and a new possibility opens up to Taim to get close to Rand, something the DO's forces always attempt whenever possible.

 

Its just too convenient that the BA planned on breaking him free. and low and behold he gets freed. Rand and Co ignored this and let him have a nice job training men to channel. To my knowledge no one even considered him being a plant.

I think Taim was turned by 13 after he was captured and then allowed to "escape".

 

It's not a probable option - note that he behaves naturally, whereas an oddity about the 13x13d people seems to be noticeable at the first glance, like in case of Mezar. But, guys, do we really need another Taim thread?

I am not sure I buy that since we didnt know what Taim was like before to really compare a before and after. From the chapters in ToM where the sisters appear to be getting turned, those close to them could see a difference in behavior.

 

Didn't Mezar give Androl an impression as if he was dead already? Anyway, that option would make RJ less credible in my eyes.

[yoniy0]

Yes, if anyone we've met before ToM was forcibly turned to the Shadow, and this is in fact what's been going on in the BT, then that's a consistency problem. I'm deferring judgement until after I've read AMoL.

[pamela]

(That reminded me that we don't know for sure if the 13x13 method is being used in the BT, so yoniy0 is right - we must wait.)

[Katiora]

I have been doing a re-read and one thing I noticed in it is when Taim comes to Rand in Caemlyn and Bashere sees him, he doesn't recognize him.. In fact he has to prove that it is him by telling deeds he had done... At this point I would not be surprised to find out that the real Taim was killed when he "escaped" and SOMEONE replaced him, but before doing so tortured all the information out of him.

 

I also find it peculiar that as soon as Rand sees Taim that Lews Therin starts ranting, not about men channeling, but about the Forsaken, specifically Sammael and Demandred, though we know that he is not Sammael.

 

This is in Chapter 2: A New Arrival in Lord of Chaos.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He looked doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

 

I find this very peculiar... he goes on to say that he's shaved and that is the reason for his difference in appearance, but shaving should not have changed his look THAT Much... Just a thought.

[Suttree]

I have been doing a re-read and one thing I noticed in it is when Taim comes to Rand in Caemlyn and Bashere sees him, he doesn't recognize him.. In fact he has to prove that it is him by telling deeds he had done... At this point I would not be surprised to find out that the real Taim was killed when he "escaped" and SOMEONE replaced him, but before doing so tortured all the information out of him.

 

I also find it peculiar that as soon as Rand sees Taim that Lews Therin starts ranting, not about men channeling, but about the Forsaken, specifically Sammael and Demandred, though we know that he is not Sammael.

 

This is in Chapter 2: A New Arrival in Lord of Chaos.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He looked doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

 

I find this very peculiar... he goes on to say that he's shaved and that is the reason for his difference in appearance, but shaving should not have changed his look THAT Much... Just a thought.

 

Shaving wouldn't account for it alone no. But we know Taim finished a long and ardous jounry, harried across half a continent to reach Andor. He was "rode hard and put away wet" according to RJ. That is why Rand though he was a good ten years older than he actually is. Those two things combined would be enough.

[Moridin1977]

Jaanduin soul

[driedraspberry]

Ishamael isn't omniscient.

 

Maybe he didn't know who Taim was either.

 

Hmmm I would be surprised if Taim wasn't under orders to claim himself a false Dragon. The guy has been channeling for 15yrs, so why wait that long to do it?

[Agitel]

My opinion is that RJ hadn't thought up the character of Mazrim Taim at that point which is why he wasn't mentioned :p

Thats the easiest explanation. Wasn't this originally supposed to be a trilogy? Its a bit more difficult to stuff 2000+ characters into a trilogy than into 14 books...

That, or Taim had not proclaimed himself at that point. He may have been causing the trouble "up north", but not have claimed to be the dragon reborn at that point. The reds were still working on him...

 

To some degree Jordan was worldbuilding and plotbuilding as he went at that point. He didn't have everything set from the start (otherwise he obviously wouldn't have said it would only take a trilogy). At some point he probably sat down and decided to flesh out the world apart from his writing and build up some notes, but I don't believe that was the case during EotW.

[Suttree]

Ishamael isn't omniscient.

 

Maybe he didn't know who Taim was either.

 

Hmmm I would be surprised if Taim wasn't under orders to claim himself a false Dragon. The guy has been channeling for 15yrs, so why wait that long to do it?

 

Why do you think he has been channeling that long? Rand overestimated his age by a fair amount because of the ardous journey to Caemlyn. He isn't anywhere near 35 years old.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Now wasn't this the time that Taim was running rampant in Saldea? Yet Ba'alzamon mentions everyone that has been a false Dragon Reborn but him. With all the time of Taim having channeled and being sane, that alone points to him being a darkfriend. Also I feel like this omission of his name in the quote just goes to show that he has been Ba'alzamon's puppet this entire time.

This is kind of redundant, ever since Moridin appointed Taim as the new Forsaken.

[TootThatHorn]

Now wasn't this the time that Taim was running rampant in Saldea? Yet Ba'alzamon mentions everyone that has been a false Dragon Reborn but him. With all the time of Taim having channeled and being sane, that alone points to him being a darkfriend. Also I feel like this omission of his name in the quote just goes to show that he has been Ba'alzamon's puppet this entire time.

This is kind of redundant, ever since Moridin appointed Taim as the new Forsaken.

 

Maybe it's the prologue that's redundant, did you look at the date it was posted?

[driedraspberry]

Ishamael isn't omniscient.

 

Maybe he didn't know who Taim was either.

 

Hmmm I would be surprised if Taim wasn't under orders to claim himself a false Dragon. The guy has been channeling for 15yrs, so why wait that long to do it?

 

Why do you think he has been channeling that long? Rand overestimated his age by a fair amount because of the ardous journey to Caemlyn. He isn't anywhere near 35 years old.

 

WoT wiki puts Taim's birth year at 967, which makes him 11yrs Rand's senior. At that point in the story Rand had been channeling for 2yrs so if we're to assume they sparked about the same age give or take two years it would be Taim 11-15yrs of channeling. He wasn't off, just too far high in likely estimation.

 

I have no idea how many years has passed since, as the books timeline confuses me. But 15 is only a bit of an overestimation. Even 10yrs is a long time for someone as ambitious and grandiose as Taim. 5yrs even.

 

Correct me if WoT wiki is wrong. :)