Planned Seanchan Attack on the White Tower...

[Morden]

Soo, how many of you think this will happen? is it possible Mat will get a portal to Ebou Dar in time to stop it? Who knows, maybe the forces sitting at the FoM, will all get portalled all the way to Tar Valon and stomp on the Seanchan.

 

Its going to be very interesting to see whether the white tower would be able to hold up...

 

Im interested to see whether Aviendha can persuade Rand to do something about the captured wise ones as well, something to do with Kneeling in exchange perhaps? Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

And as the Seanchan do not train people to channel they only have access to those born with the spark, and the books say there are many times more suldam than damane. so perhaps 1-2k tops in randland?

 

 

If it was me, I would probably try and gather every Angrael and Sangrael the WT has along with whatever else they can scavenge, a core of Aiel wearing copies of Matts Medallion, big circles of males and females. split them up into groups of 30 or 40... Port using Saidin to just outside every single location the seanchan gather, then skim between every barrack and camp. Its incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty I guess and It wont happen with Rand Sedai...

 

But to me, the Seanchan must be broken or Aviendha's visions will most likely come true.

[TyphoonBlade]

In my opinion Mat's either gonna be at the tower or in ebou dar when the attack goes down, regardless of which place he's in he'll be the one to convince fortuona to call it off.

 

That being said Rand doesnt have forces to spare fighting the seanchan especially when considering what's happening in camelyn already.

 

The thing about rand breaking the seanchan is that he already had that chance(with the choedan kal) and in the end rand(probably because the pattern willed it) decided to flee/leave instead. So I don't think he'll turn back to that way of thinking again.

 

I don't think the seanchan need to be "broken" their culture just needs to be reevaluated/fixed(kinda like seanchan 2.0) so practices like leashing channelers can end. I don't see a difference between what you propose and what happened to the aiel in aviendhas future, both of those are genocide.

 

I honestly see no reason why they can't try to come to some agreement or truce, and considering what the outriggers are about I'm sure they can come to one.

 

 

[Morden]

To me, I think its effectively inevitable that the Seanchan will prevail, there just seems to be too many parallels that lead to them being linked with a new AoL(in an age or two when there channelers are no longer the main source of their military prowess), their culture in a modified variant is similar for instance. I just think that even if the bore is sealed, that allowing the wheel to repeat itself in the same way all over again is utterly futile, I would want to make a difference, even if it was just a case of shielding the damane and making them swear on the oath rod not to use the OP if collared. it would bind them and make them useless to the seanchan.

 

What I do find interesting is that in Avi's visions there seems to be a distinct change in the balance of power created by firearms and the canons.

 

A remnant of a remnant shall remain. It isnt the last battle that is going to eliminate the Aiel, and I just cannot think of a way to save them unless he can return them to the way of the leaf. In a way I see the whole remnant of a remnant shall remain. being myth the Aes Sedai who built Rhuidean had heard about those Aiel who had been made da'covale/Gaishan as those scraps in the waste in her visions were not even a remnant of the Aiel.

 

Personally given the choice I think the Aiel derserve surpremacy over the Seanchan for a simple reason, the Aiel would not collar the channelers and... they do not attack anyone for no reason. In the visions it is caused by anger at the seanchan over the wise ones, and because of how they felt like they had to do it for honor's sake. without a real resolution with the Seanchan war is inevitable.

[thisguy]

I can't stand the Seanchan. I agree, they look like they will eventually take over.

[TyphoonBlade]

To me, I think its effectively inevitable that the Seanchan will prevail, there just seems to be too many parallels that lead to them being linked with a new AoL(in an age or two when there channelers are no longer the main source of their military prowess), their culture in a modified variant is similar for instance. I just think that even if the bore is sealed, that allowing the wheel to repeat itself in the same way all over again is utterly futile, I would want to make a difference, even if it was just a case of shielding the damane and making them swear on the oath rod not to use the OP if collared. it would bind them and make them useless to the seanchan.

 

What I do find interesting is that in Avi's visions there seems to be a distinct change in the balance of power created by firearms and the canons.

 

A remnant of a remnant shall remain. It isnt the last battle that is going to eliminate the Aiel, and I just cannot think of a way to save them unless he can return them to the way of the leaf. In a way I see the whole remnant of a remnant shall remain. being myth the Aes Sedai who built Rhuidean had heard about those Aiel who had been made da'covale/Gaishan as those scraps in the waste in her visions were not even a remnant of the Aiel.

 

Personally given the choice I think the Aiel derserve surpremacy over the Seanchan for a simple reason, the Aiel would not collar the channelers and... they do not attack anyone for no reason. In the visions it is caused by anger at the seanchan over the wise ones, and because of how they felt like they had to do it for honor's sake. without a real resolution with the Seanchan war is inevitable.

 

 

I agree with you they should try to make a difference as opposed to letting the wheel repeat, but I highly doubt the oath rod would used to restrict the damane from channeling, and the main reason for that is that they are weapons(according to the seanchan) they'd be at a HUGE loss tactically if they didn't have the use of the one power. If they could be made to swear anything on the oath rod it will most likely be to "not use the power unless to serve or protect the empire".

 

 

And the fact that they are SEEN as weapons is EXACTLY why i don't see Rand destroying them, because as Rand found out at the end of TGS he is not weapon and neither are the ashaman or any and now Rand has to prove/show this to the Seanchan.

 

And as far as the Aiel not attacking anyone for no reason the Shaido attacked the Seanchan before the wise ones had even been taken...

TPOD pg.1117 (Rhiale to Sevanna after interrogating a seanchan soldier)

 

"I do not think it matters," Rhiale put in. At least her contrariness extended to the others, too. "I do not think they will fight unless we attack them. Remember, they did nothing until we moved against them and it was only to defend themselves."

 

The shaido don't reflect all of the aiel since they abandoned a lot of their old ways, but you make it sound like the seanchan didn't have reason, when they came to Randland they expected to be welcomed and instead where met with opposition. It's really just a matter of perception, the aiel wanted the wise ones back, well the Seanchan expected the lands to be united and waiting for the return...both of these perspectives are foolish when you look at them objectively since the seanchan shouldn't have expected these lands to be united and waiting for them, and the aiel shouldn't have expected to get the wise ones back that they lost in a fight they started.

 

but thats just my 2 cents

[MasterAblar]

Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

Not enough time to exterminate them and they would be far more useful alive anyway.

 

If Rand was going attack the Seanchan however, the Ashaman would be sufficient. The Seanchan have absolutely no way of tracking them. All the Ashaman have to do is take off their coats and act inconspicuous, and they could blow the Seachan to smitherings. Basically what Rand was going to do at the end of tGS, except multiple strikes at the same time. Even if the Seanchan manage to catch some of the Ashaman, they'd never be able to defend themselves against virtually invisible attacks coming from every direction.

[Sasha Grayes]

screw the channelers they are dangerous and should all be chained and collared.

[Durinax]

Something has to be done about the Seanchan, even if they simply exterminate every one of them they can find which is the simplest solution tbh. between Ashaman, Wise Ones, Windfinders, AS/Kin they must have upwards of 10k channelers.

 

Not enough time to exterminate them and they would be far more useful alive anyway.

 

If Rand was going attack the Seanchan however, the Ashaman would be sufficient. The Seanchan have absolutely no way of tracking them. All the Ashaman have to do is take off their coats and act inconspicuous, and they could blow the Seachan to smitherings. Basically what Rand was going to do at the end of tGS, except multiple strikes at the same time. Even if the Seanchan manage to catch some of the Ashaman, they'd never be able to defend themselves against virtually invisible attacks coming from every direction.

the only thing wrong with that tactic is it validates what they believe in, traditional combat once their traditional beliefs (damane) have been sufficiently rocked would be sufficient, not to mention at the same time you could have AM doing long range non lethal hits and such, return the suldam leashed and it would be enough to destroy the pure seanchan beliefs and that would cascade downhill

[Luckers]

I think the answer to the Seanchan lies through non-violent means--I think this is the point Brandon was less-than-subtly making with Aviendha's vision of doom.

 

Specifically, the Aiel with their concept of honour are actually well matched to gain Seanchan respect, and they have proven themselve quite skilled at re-educating even the most willfully blind students. I think Aviendha's role will partially be to convince the Aiel to not turn to spears immediately to answer the Seanchan evils, but rather seek another path.

 

One idea that has ocurred to me is that Fortuona could be forcibly sparked--I asked Brandon if this were possible and he replied that 'almost anything is possible, under the right circumstances'. This nicely gives Fortuona the same choice she gave her damane, which is to say none. From there it would create an interesting dynamic--whilst I believe that Fortuona is strong willed enough to see herself leashed, if done in the right way you could force Fortuona to weigh her belief that she should be leashed with her duty to the Empire, and therein force her to live as a marath'damane (this time, actually forcing her to choose to channel). Using her secret you could blackmail her into turning the Empire towards fighting the Shadow, and as you guide her in that, re-educate and show her that marath'damane are no more innately evil than any other person (beginning the cultural shift that could continue beyond aMoL).

 

So how could this be done, you ask? Well, one of the things I've noted in the past was that Verin took specific note of the sul'dam issue. She even began a little note-book on it, comprable to her treatment of the Black Ajah. When Siuan tried to dismiss them in favour of the Shadow, Verin corrected her quite snarkily.

 

From there, we can basically take as fact that Verin knew that sul'dam were unsparked learners (she spent months with the wondergirls, there is not a chance she didn't question them). And where does Verin next appear? In the Two Rivers, or more specifically, in the largest/only pool of unsparked learners known to the Tower.

 

I suggest that Verin did study the Seanchan deeply, and using the Two Rivers girls, experiments to find a solution to the sul'dam problem, that she then left instructions to deal with--possibly even left them for Aviendha, though that leaves the question of how she knew Aviendha might play an integral role. To be honest as well, I always preferred the idea of an Aes Sedai playing this role, it served the thematics better--though, again, if you'd asked me before TofM I would have said Carlinya would be the one. Meh.

[Neophyte]

I agree that Fortuona is strong enough in her belief that she could see herself leashed is pressed into a situation in which she had to channel.

 

In Padra's pov that Aviendha experienced, Padra thinks that "many years had passed since [Fortuona's] rule." Not that many years has passed since Fortuona's death ... perhaps her rule ended with a leash, and not a blade.

 

I'm not sure what the right way to deal with Fortuona would be if she is forced to acknowledge that she is like any other marath'damane - trying to blackmail her would, in my opinion, only make it more likely that she sees herself collared. Someone would have to outright convince her that marath'damane can be safe unleashed. Mat Cauthon may be the only person in the world lucky enough to find the right words - that would be the toughest roll of the dice we've seen yet.

 

Personally, thought, I hope that leftover instructions from Verin are not involved. Verin is awesome, but partly because she's a limited believable character. If she ends up just dropping solutions to all the major problems in someone's lap, it would be way too deus ex machina for my taste.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure what the right way to deal with Fortuona would be if she is forced to acknowledge that she is like any other marath'damane - trying to blackmail her would, in my opinion, only make it more likely that she sees herself collared. Someone would have to outright convince her that marath'damane can be safe unleashed. Mat Cauthon may be the only person in the world lucky enough to find the right words - that would be the toughest roll of the dice we've seen yet.

 

Actually trying 'outright' would be a mistake. The point would be to show her slowly over time by forcing her to live as a marath'damane, and still serve the Empire.

 

And the blackmail would be 'if you see yourself collared or dead or do anything but use the Empire to fight the Shadow, I will see to it that sul'dam are forced--I will show your people that those they expect to save them from the monsters can turn into monsters at any time themselves, starting with their Empress.'

 

With what has happened in Seanchan and Tarmon Gai'don looming, such a revelation and action would spell almost certain death for the Empire--in effect you'd be forcing Fortuona to choose between her duty to the Empire, and her duty to see herself leashed, and the former is the only thing that could trump the latter.

 

But yes, I utterly hope its not just someone telling her not to leash and her realising it. For one thing Brandon doesn't have the skill to write it--his abilities do not lie toward subtlety in either character work nor dialogue.

 

Personally, thought, I hope that leftover instructions from Verin are not involved. Verin is awesome, but partly because she's a limited believable character. If she ends up just dropping solutions to all the major problems in someone's lap, it would be way too deus ex machina for my taste.

 

Except this has been in the works since tDR. In fact if nothing comes from Verin's work on the Seanchan, it'll feel odd.

[TristanWebb]

I hope the planned attack doesn't happen, but only because it would be taking precious pages away from the true battle for something we have already seen. Not saying it won't, the whole Elayne needs to be kidnapped by the BA 4 times to start taking care thing shows BS isn't opposed to repeating events, but I hope it doesn't.

[fuzz1717]

I feel like the two former sul'dam going to the WT (or now at the WT) may show the attacking Seanchan the truth behind the damane. That, in combination with Mat's timely arrival in Ebou Dar to tell off Tuon will save the WT from destruction. Or so I hope, i kinda don't want the WT to fall, even though I don't like many of the WT actions.

[MasterAblar]

the only thing wrong with that tactic is it validates what they believe in, traditional combat once their traditional beliefs (damane) have been sufficiently rocked would be sufficient, not to mention at the same time you could have AM doing long range non lethal hits and such, return the suldam leashed and it would be enough to destroy the pure seanchan beliefs and that would cascade downhill

 

Well, certainly a war with the Seanchan would not be desirable since every one of them dead is one less soldier against the Shadow, so yeah defeating them by breaking down their belief system is definitely the better way to go. I was just thinking that in a situation where war was inevitable, the Ashaman would be lethal simply because they can't be detected.

 

That said, Tuon already knows that she can channel so she's probably aware that all the other suldam can as well. If she can convince herself that she's different because she chooses not to channel (as if the damane choose to channel), the rest of the Seanchan might be perfectly willing to delude themselves in a similar manner. Far easier to ignore your problems than confront them.

[Durinax]

the only thing wrong with that tactic is it validates what they believe in, traditional combat once their traditional beliefs (damane) have been sufficiently rocked would be sufficient, not to mention at the same time you could have AM doing long range non lethal hits and such, return the suldam leashed and it would be enough to destroy the pure seanchan beliefs and that would cascade downhill

 

Well, certainly a war with the Seanchan would not be desirable since every one of them dead is one less soldier against the Shadow, so yeah defeating them by breaking down their belief system is definitely the better way to go. I was just thinking that in a situation where war was inevitable, the Ashaman would be lethal simply because they can't be detected.

 

That said, Tuon already knows that she can channel so she's probably aware that all the other suldam can as well. If she can convince herself that she's different because she chooses not to channel (as if the damane choose to channel), the rest of the Seanchan might be perfectly willing to delude themselves in a similar manner. Far easier to ignore your problems than confront them.

she may be willing to ignore them but would the rest of the high blood? even the deathwatch may waver in support if they thought that she was marath damane

[MasterAblar]

She may be willing to ignore them but would the rest of the high blood? Even the deathwatch may waver in support if they thought that she was marath damane.

 

I suppose, especially for the High Blood since they would probably take any oppurtunity to gain power. But it's not just Tuon who would fall should it be revealed that the suldam can channel, it's the entire Empire that would have it's foundations shaken, and perhaps even crumble. Whoever takes Tuon's place would then be left ruling over nothing but chaos. Under those circumstances it may be preferable to remain High Blood and give the same hypocritical excuse as Tuon. Hypocrisy is always a valid option for those who want to gain, or retain, power, and the High Blood are certainly apart of that group. I think it's more the people who would need to learn the truth rather than the High Blood.

[Tiberius]

Could it be possible that by the time of the attack, the tower will be largely empty anyway? This would force the Seanchan to follow them to TG and wind up facing hordes of shadowspawn instead of the Aes Sedai. The AS might have to liberate the WT afterwards, but perhaps if they end up fighting on the same side BECAUSE of the planned attack, it may change the perspective of the Empire.

[Luckers]

Losing the Tower--even if just for a time--could well help the Aes Sedai make the much needed move to de-centralize, even if they gained it back. It could also create an interesting scenario if the Shadow lay siege to Tar Valon around the same time, potentially forcing the Seanchan and Aes Sedai to fight side by side.

 

This could even be the fulfilment of the Seanchan woman on the mountain dream--I've long argued that that woman--with her blurry face and rock-solid sword--represented an army led by Fortuona (i.e. her face is blurry because the woman is many people, the figure is female because those many people are led by a single woman's will, and the sword is the solid important part setting the group as militant in aspect (an army)).

 

If this were the case then the mountain may well represent the Tower AND the struggle against a Shadowspawn assault. If Fortuona gains the Tower, and Egwene is caught in the city, it would explain why Egwene is hanging on the crumbling cliff--she's in the exposed position bearing the brunt of the assault. The Seanchan may well stand aside, secure in the Tower, until Fortuona arrives having had a change of heart or at least reached the conclusion that defeating the Shadow is worth more than anything else, and 'descends to lend Egwene a hand' by joining the fight, allowing them to 'make it together' [because even if the Seanchan were momentarily safe in the Tower they would eventually have faced the same threat anyway when the Aes Sedai were overhwhelmed].

[Tiberius]

^^^^. I like that. Yes, indeed, that could happen.

[Lookingglass]

And Mat did send a message with the AS to say the Tower had somthing of his (horn) and he was comming for it. So Im guessing he will be at the Tower asap now the he has been to the ToG

[The Fisher King]

I think the answer to the Seanchan lies through non-violent means--I think this is the point Brandon was less-than-subtly making with Aviendha's vision of doom.

 

Specifically, the Aiel with their concept of honour are actually well matched to gain Seanchan respect, and they have proven themselve quite skilled at re-educating even the most willfully blind students. I think Aviendha's role will partially be to convince the Aiel to not turn to spears immediately to answer the Seanchan evils, but rather seek another path.

 

One idea that has ocurred to me is that Fortuona could be forcibly sparked--I asked Brandon if this were possible and he replied that 'almost anything is possible, under the right circumstances'. This nicely gives Fortuona the same choice she gave her damane, which is to say none. From there it would create an interesting dynamic--whilst I believe that Fortuona is strong willed enough to see herself leashed, if done in the right way you could force Fortuona to weigh her belief that she should be leashed with her duty to the Empire, and therein force her to live as a marath'damane (this time, actually forcing her to choose to channel). Using her secret you could blackmail her into turning the Empire towards fighting the Shadow, and as you guide her in that, re-educate and show her that marath'damane are no more innately evil than any other person (beginning the cultural shift that could continue beyond aMoL).

 

So how could this be done, you ask? Well, one of the things I've noted in the past was that Verin took specific note of the sul'dam issue. She even began a little note-book on it, comprable to her treatment of the Black Ajah. When Siuan tried to dismiss them in favour of the Shadow, Verin corrected her quite snarkily.

 

From there, we can basically take as fact that Verin knew that sul'dam were unsparked learners (she spent months with the wondergirls, there is not a chance she didn't question them). And where does Verin next appear? In the Two Rivers, or more specifically, in the largest/only pool of unsparked learners known to the Tower.

 

I suggest that Verin did study the Seanchan deeply, and using the Two Rivers girls, experiments to find a solution to the sul'dam problem, that she then left instructions to deal with--possibly even left them for Aviendha, though that leaves the question of how she knew Aviendha might play an integral role. To be honest as well, I always preferred the idea of an Aes Sedai playing this role, it served the thematics better--though, again, if you'd asked me before TofM I would have said Carlinya would be the one. Meh.

 

Luckers, I've been deeply curious for some time - do you know for **sure** that most of the sequence with Avi in The Way Forward Machine was mainly written by Brandon Sanderson?

 

One reason I ask - and this just shows how longtime readers can see things differently - is the fact that I actually thought that section represented some of Mr Sanderson's best WOT writing to date.

 

 

Fish

[atlas74]

I thought Avi's rings vision felt very RJ...I havent read them in some time but that is the memory I am left with...Sorry, I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic...

[The Fisher King]

Yup. Thats what I was saying, Atlas. I agree with you 100%

 

And, as I posted above - if it WAS Brandon, then, imo, that section was certainly some of his best writing in WOT to date.

 

Again: JMVHOANMTOAIAWW (just my very humble opinion and not meant to offend anyone in any way whatsoever).

 

 

Fish

[Sid]

I think Brandon did a much better job with those future scenes (it helps that the characters were not already established) than with any other scene in either of the books he's done. For once he was right to be unsubtle; bashing us over the head with a horrifying possible future was exactly what those chapters needed. If I ever meet Brandon at a signing or whatever, the first thing I'd mention to him is how much I liked those chapters (provided he doesn't top himself in AMoL, that is). He nailed those chapters perfectly, unlike most of the others that left telltale hammer-marks around the nail.

 

As for the actual topic of the thread... as I recall, someone mentioned all the main characters will meet at the Field of Merrilor, thus Mat has to be there at some point. The attack on the White Tower cannot succeed or even go far beyond its initial stage if things aren't going to fall apart completely for the forces of the Light. They simply need everyone at as full strength as they can, if saving 10,000 non-channeling Whitecloaks was a huge deal then decimating either the Seanchan or Tar Valon's forces is just too much. It will probably involve Mat again, since he's the only person with any chance of subduing the Seanchan peacefully. It might even take all three Ta'veren's presence to pull it off, but it needs to happen.

[Durinax]

It might even take all three Ta'veren's presence to pull it off, but it needs to happen.

I hope it is all three, I would like to see Tuon, Tylee, and the rest of the entourage meet up with mat, perrin and rand. it could just be a wicked scene. Hopefully from Tuon's pov as well