Seanchan and the AoL

[shortkut]

also sutt: pay attention to my arguments instead

 

book says AS = 3 oaths

book says Eggy et al = AS before 3 oaths

result: to be AS all you need is the tower to call you AS.

 

the tower called the BA AS

result: BA still AS

 

final result: you and ares are wrong that they are not AS because book has shown that they are.

[Vardar]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

 

Pretty sure I answered the original question on the first page. If the seanchan win, there can be no new AOL because of how they treat channelers. It won't happen because channelers need free range to experiment.

[thisguy]

Sounds the same as what was done in RJ's world. The Aes Sedai didn't want to give up their power and prestige and did nothing about the BA.

 

Sigh. At this point you have been consistently making claims about my argument and AS that are flat out not true.

 

Not only are you attribuing false motivations to them but as has been pointed out we have no idea what is in the secret histories or what has been done in past to deal with the BA.

 

We do know for fact there have been various sisters over a period of time working to deal with the threat of this other organization so you can not claim there was nothing done.

 

Lastly instead of triple posting feel free to just use edit. You can mark in the post what the addition was.

 

Lol.... secret histories - I can argue that nothing was done. We don't know. How should that affect the discussion? What we do know - SIGH - is that until Siuan no Officer of the Tower has done a thing and she didn't do much. You mentioned two sisters and one is part of the Black Ajah - which means she has sworn new oaths to the DO - which by your definition means she is not AS.

Anyway, I gave you two good analogies. IF you don't like them and don't agree then we can end this here. But, please stop with the SIGH and saying you've been refuted and all the other nonsense - I think you are incorrect.

 

You've posted things which I have answered and then I've seen you go back and add by editing to the original post. I don't like that either but I'm not complaining. Unless it's part of the T&C, I don't see the problem.

 

Edit to add: Egwene was Amyrilin to about half the AS without swearing the 3 oaths. Why? Because, she could channel and they said that she was. If the AS give a woman legitimacy as an AS, they are AS. They never made the BA illegitimate. They treat all the members as AS. Therefore, they are AS. That's the way I see it.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Suttree, you have written a few times that the implicit mandate of the WT is to fight the shadow. Is this opinion or is there a quote? I have looked an find nothing written to this effect. The founding of the WT was to bring together disparate groups calling themselves AS.

 

Is there a source for the claim that the BA's goal is to destroy the WT? Guide policy, yes, but not to destroy surely. If the WT were destroyed the BA would loose perks/power associated with being AS.

[Vardar]

Suttree, you have written a few times that the implicit mandate of the WT is to fight the shadow. Is this opinion or is there a quote? I have looked an find nothing written to this effect. The founding of the WT was to bring together disparate groups calling themselves AS.

 

Is there a source for the claim that the BA's goal is to destroy the WT? Guide policy, yes, but not to destroy surely. If the WT were destroyed the BA would loose perks/power associated with being AS.

 

The WT does stand against the shadow, there are quotes about that.

 

That being said, I find it hard to stomach the idea that the WT is the biggest force against the Shadow, I really think that distinction goes to the borderlanders. Just from a numbers perspective. They hold the blight back, without them the blight would have taken over all of Randland hundreds of years ago. Even before those countries, there were countries there battling the shadow. Even in the trolloc wars, it was mostly the soldiers who fought off the shadow, with AS assistance and support of course, but to say they're the major force is a bit much. Without those soldiers, the AS are nothing, without AS, the soldiers are at a disadvantage, but there's nothing they can't kill if they throw enough bodies at it (Kind crass

to say it like that but it's truth)

[thisguy]

Suttree, you have written a few times that the implicit mandate of the WT is to fight the shadow. Is this opinion or is there a quote? I have looked an find nothing written to this effect. The founding of the WT was to bring together disparate groups calling themselves AS.

 

Is there a source for the claim that the BA's goal is to destroy the WT? Guide policy, yes, but not to destroy surely. If the WT were destroyed the BA would loose perks/power associated with being AS.

I do not believe the BA is there to pull the tower down, subvert and weaken it maybe. They use the Tower as the Tower's legitimacy gives them power over people as they are AS.

[Knivy]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

 

Pretty sure I answered the original question on the first page. If the seanchan win, there can be no new AOL because of how they treat channelers. It won't happen because channelers need free range to experiment.

 

Doesnt the wheel have 7 ages?

 

1, Pre-channeling, 2, channeling, 3, tainted, 4, seanchan-ruled, 5, dissapearance of channeling, 6, some other one 7, ours.

(just an example)

 

If all the tech from the AoL were purely power driven, then I'd think there would be more remaining of it in the third age. I say the loss of the sho'wings has more to do with the loss of manufacturing than loss of power knowledge, and therefore the AoL can arise even in a world without AS.

[thisguy]

From LoC, Pg 444 - Egwene's thoughts about the rumors she has heard - "Today she learned that Siuan had been executed because she unearthed the Black Ajah, that Siuan was Black Ajah and still alive, that the Black Ajah had driven those Aes Sedai who were not Black from the Tower."

[Ashaman Kovan]

Perception VS reality again?

[Suttree]

Perception VS reality again?

 

I know it's hilarious right? Apparently all you have to do is pretend to be something to make it true. Imagine the possibilities.

 

Even funnier that some posters fail to see that Eggy and Verin were always AS in spirit and working for the light. They also need to work on their timeline a bit. Cads almost unearthed the BA before Siuan became Amrylin despite false claims to the contrary.

 

If you agree that the BA is it's own organization with separate oaths, goals and the master the they serve than you agree the BA is AS in name only no matter how many time you repeat yourself and quadruple post.

[thisguy]

I think it is hilarious. The Tower - the organization - is manmade (or after the breaking, woman-made). All the laws and rules are made by the members - just like the Congress, the Police, Army, the Boy Scouts, etc. When a woman goes "bad" it's not like an angel who gets cast out of Heaven by God. It's the AS who have to decide whether or not to cast them out. They haven't.

 

Edit to add: Egwene never has one of those asides we sometimes read when a character is talking to themselves about rumors or something else like "How ridiculous, a woman going to the Black means she's not Aes Sedai." There's no response at all.

 

The AS call the BA "Black Sisters".

[thisguy]

Perception VS reality again?

 

I know it's hilarious right? Apparently all you have to do is pretend to be something to make it true. Imagine the possibilities.

 

Even funnier that some posters fail to see that Eggy and Verin were always AS in spirit and working for the light. They also need to work on their timeline a bit. Cads almost unearthed the BA before Siuan became Amrylin despite false claims to the contrary.

 

If you agree that the BA is it's own organization with separate oaths, goals and the master the they serve than you agree the BA is AS in name only no matter how many time you repeat yourself and quadruple post.

Was Cads doing what she was doing by order of an Amyrlin? Again, Egwene was made Amyrlin while not swearing the Oaths. Other Accepted were not. They were, we can assume, working for the light. She is AS because the AS say she is. It's simple. And all of your edited and re-edited posts won't change that.

[Suttree]

Was Cads doing what she was doing by order of an Amyrlin?

 

So basically at this point in the debate you have resorted in two posts to the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I". Scintillating stuff mate.

 

As for the above why would it matter. You have made multiple false claims at this point concerning AS that have been proven wrong at every turn. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that AS are to blame for BA actions but now you refuse to give credit to AS for the actions of Cads who actually is one of the greatest AS. Hope you can see the disconnect there.

[thisguy]

Was Cads doing what she was doing by order of an Amyrlin?

 

So basically at this point in the debate you have resorted in two posts to the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I". Scintillating stuff mate.

 

As for the above why would it matter. You have made multiple false claims at this point concerning AS that have been proven wrong at every turn. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that AS are to blame for BA actions but now you refuse to give credit to AS for the actions of Cads who actually is one of the greatest AS. Hope you can see the disconnect there.

 

Actually, buddy, that's exactly how I feel about you.

 

It would matter because the Tower is in charge of Aes Sedai. The individual AS all have their own agendas. Some of them are not sanctioned by the Tower. Some of them are, or would be, looked down on by the Tower.

 

If you do not understand my argument, that's your problem. If you do not agree with my argument, I am fine with that. As I've said a million times now, all organizations have the power to make a person a member and take that membership away. There's nothing about what a person really feels inside. It's about what the leaders of an organization decide.

[Suttree]

Was Cads doing what she was doing by order of an Amyrlin?

 

So basically at this point in the debate you have resorted in two posts to the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I". Scintillating stuff mate.

 

As for the above why would it matter. You have made multiple false claims at this point concerning AS that have been proven wrong at every turn. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that AS are to blame for BA actions but now you refuse to give credit to AS for the actions of Cads who actually is one of the greatest AS. Hope you can see the disconnect there.

 

Actually, buddy, that's exactly how I feel about you.

 

It would matter because the Tower is in charge of Aes Sedai. The individual AS all have their own agendas. Some of them are not sanctioned by the Tower. Some of them are, or would be, looked down on by the Tower.

 

It is utterly absurd that you would hold the current AS responsible for the actions of the Forsaken and yet refuse to count Cads' actions towards the WT. Especially in a situation in which no one knows who to trust because there is a distinct, separate organization impersonating your members in order to subvert your goals.

 

If you do not understand my argument, that's your problem. If you do not agree with my argument, I am fine with that. As I've said a million times now, all organizations have the power to make a person a member and take that membership away. There's nothing about what a person really feels inside. It's about what the leaders of an organization decide.

 

Third times a charm?

 

Pretending to be something does not make it so in any reality that I know of. For instance, someone could claim online to be a Lit major, who graduated Magna Cum Laude and a Fulbright scholar. Now only that person knows if it's true, but does just pretending make it reality?

 

It is utterly absurd that you would hold the current AS responsible for the actions of the Forsaken and yet refuse to credit Cads action in attempting to root out the BA. Especially considering the nature of secrecy needing for the task in not knowing who you can trust considering there is a separate organization impersonating your members in order to sow chaos.

[thisguy]

Was Cads doing what she was doing by order of an Amyrlin?

 

So basically at this point in the debate you have resorted in two posts to the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I". Scintillating stuff mate.

 

As for the above why would it matter. You have made multiple false claims at this point concerning AS that have been proven wrong at every turn. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that AS are to blame for BA actions but now you refuse to give credit to AS for the actions of Cads who actually is one of the greatest AS. Hope you can see the disconnect there.

 

Actually, buddy, that's exactly how I feel about you.

 

It would matter because the Tower is in charge of Aes Sedai. The individual AS all have their own agendas. Some of them are not sanctioned by the Tower. Some of them are, or would be, looked down on by the Tower.

 

It is utterly absurd that you would hold the current AS responsible for the actions of the Forsaken and yet refuse to count Cads' actions towards the WT. Especially in a situation in which no one knows who to trust because there is a distinct, separate organization impersonating your members in order to subvert your goals.

 

If you do not understand my argument, that's your problem. If you do not agree with my argument, I am fine with that. As I've said a million times now, all organizations have the power to make a person a member and take that membership away. There's nothing about what a person really feels inside. It's about what the leaders of an organization decide.

 

Third times a charm?

 

Pretending to be something does not make it so in any reality that I know of. For instance, someone could claim online to be a Lit major, who graduated Magna Cum Laude and a Fulbright scholar. Now only that person knows if it's true, but does just pretending make it reality?

 

It is utterly absurd that you would hold the current AS responsible for the actions of the Forsaken and yet refuse to credit Cads action in attempting to root out the BA. Especially considering the nature of secrecy needing for the task in not knowing who you can trust considering there is a separate organization impersonating your members in order to sow chaos.

 

 

Being sanctioned by an organization makes the person a part of the organization.

 

I'll give Cads credit but she is not an officer of the Tower. It is not "utterly" absurd to hold the current AS responsible for its membership. That's what every organization does. If the army has someone working for a foreign power, it is the army's responsibility to deal with it. Same with a police force, the Senate or any other organization. Why should the AS be any different?

 

Edit to add: The individual AS are given power and prestige by the Tower when the Tower gives them a ring and a shawl. If the Tower doesn't take away the right to use them from a woman, they are still AS. As the BA still can use the accoutrement of a Sister when dealing with others, they are AS and it is the AS's responsibility to deal with them.

[thisguy]

If a CIA agent is turned by a foreign power (pick one), the CIA must either arrest the Agent or put two zitis in his bonnet. Until then, the agent is still a CIA agent.

[Suttree]

Need to call it for the evening, but please for the sake of us all stop double posting...

 

Always enjoy the debate thisguy, cheers mate.

[thisguy]

Need to call it for the evening, but please for the sake of us all stop double posting...

 

Always enjoy the debate thisguy, cheers mate.

 

Lol... I'll do my best. Fair enough. All good, man. Have a good night, man.

[TootThatHorn]

also sutt: pay attention to my arguments instead

 

book says AS = 3 oaths

book says Eggy et al = AS before 3 oaths

result: to be AS all you need is the tower to call you AS.

 

the tower called the BA AS

result: BA still AS

 

final result: you and ares are wrong that they are not AS because book has shown that they are.

 

This is nothing but a technicality. AS are being handed responsibility because they are upholding people to be innocent until proven guilty. It's not as though the Black Ajah is sanctioned by the Tower, so by this argument the only way around it would be to kick everyone out and start over.

 

And besides, whether the BA are still AS because they have yet to be discovered is negligible since they have sworn off all their oaths to the light and consider themselves to have a seperate allegiance. The AS have no evidence to kick certain people, but the BA has all the knowledge necessary to know that their "allegiance" to the tower is nothing but a lie to further an ill agenda.

[Mr Ares]

There's a difference between perception and reality but when the organization that makes you AS says that you are AS, you are AS. The organization has changed what makes a channeler an AS more than once. If the organization says you are then you are.

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

then how was eggy an AS? all that made her AS was the WT or I guess Little Tower declaring her one. They did the same with the BA, ergo the BA were still AS. siple noncontradictory logic that agrees with what the book says. everyone should try it some day

What made Egwene AS was a legal loophole. The WT has laws. Those laws dictate who is and who isn't AS. As far as we know, consensus of opinion amongst sisters is not enough to make one an AS. Egwene was raised as Amyrlin by the Hall, in accordance with the laws of the Tower. That raising of her as Amyrlin makes her AS, because the Amyrlin is AS. It does appear to be within the legal power of the Amyrlin to raise people to AS hood, and to strip that title from them. Egwene, in her lawful capacity as Amyrlin, has declared that BA are not AS - even if they are not known as BA. Status as AS can be revoked retroactively (votes cast by BA cease to count when it is known they are BA).

 

I make a lot of these posts while at work while they come to me. If you'd like to not continue this conversation, I'm fine with that.

You can simply swear an oath not to serve the DO or his minions which is not incredibly open ended.

I would like to you to take the time to properly structure your thoughts. It makes it so much easier for people to understand your point. As for your proposed Oath, it is also worthless - BA forswear the Oaths, so would remove the Oath before they began serving the Shadow. So you need another on top of that, swearing not to remove the Oaths. Of course, this still doesn't address the inherent problem of why do they even bother with the Oaths? Most people gain trust by acting in a trustworthy manner. The AS response to a lack of trust was to bind themselves - they make it impossible to lie, then do their level best to deceive within those boundaries. They stick to the letter of the Oaths because they must, but they should really abide by the spirit.

 

If members of an organization gives someone membership to the organization, they are members. Considering members of the Hall, The Keeper and the Mistress of Novices were DFs, that means members of the AS took orders from DFs. What exactly is the AS then? Inept?

 

If the whole world and the Sisters think you're an AS, you're an AS for all practical purposes.

But that is perception, not reality. And membership can be retracted retroactively.

 

Again - if the organization says you are part of the organization and even votes you into positions of power and follows your orders, you are part of the organization. Perception is reality more often than not. You may think you have a terrible teacher and your teacher may not even know the subject matter he/she teaches you but if you're in her class looking for a good grade you're going to try and present things the way the teacher wants them to be presented. And, the organization - the University - is the one who made the person a teacher.

You can look up some cases of people hired as lawyers by white shoe law firms who never passed the bar. Guess what? They gave legal advice for years and everyone looked at them as lawyers. In the case we have in front of us - BA/AS - all of these women were trained and raised by the tower and given a ring and a shawl which they never took back. The BA are AS.

No, the BA are perceived as AS. Perception is not reality. If I believe someone to be a solicitor, I may seek legal advice from them. If I believe someone is a plumber, I might try to hire them to fix my boiler. If the former is not a solicitor, and the latter is not a plumber, and I am mistaken in my perception, I will still act according to my flawed perception until such point as it is corrected. If an athlete is stripped of a gold medal, then it is essentially true that they were never the winner. They were awarded the medal because of a belief that they won, and once the flawed belief is corrected they are no longer considered to have been the winner.

 

did you see the part of my post where i said the book defines AS as having done the 3 oaths, not by wanting to help the light? we also have other AS who seem to care more about books or healing than TG. they are not really helping the light, but are they still AS?

It is the view of some AS that it is the Oaths that make them AS. However, that is merely a belief. That is not the reality. Who is and who isn't AS is something determined by WT law. Who has the right to raise someone as AS and who doesn't is something enshrined in Tower law. There is a legal definition for what constitutes AS. BA, apparently, fall outside that definition. At least, according to the supreme power in the Tower, the Amyrlin Seat (who does have the power to declare someone to be or not be AS).

 

I don't agree. A person who is part of an organization is part of that organization until they are kicked out. that is true of every organization everywhere. The AS never said a word about BA not being AS in any public venue or to the AS themselves. Sorry, I do not agree.

As already stated, it is possible to be stripped of something retroactively, and it is possible for forfeiture of privileges or rights to be automatic, rather than requiring knowledge or declaration. See my earlier example of excommunication. It is the sin you commit that excommunicates you, not the formal acknowledgement by church authorities that you have been excommunicated.

 

also sutt: pay attention to my arguments instead

 

book says AS = 3 oaths

book says Eggy et al = AS before 3 oaths

result: to be AS all you need is the tower to call you AS.

 

the tower called the BA AS

result: BA still AS

 

final result: you and ares are wrong that they are not AS because book has shown that they are.

Flawed logic. The result is not that all you need is the WT to call you AS, the result is that it is possible to be raised to AS without taking the 3O. That doesn't mean that anyone that AS call an AS is an AS. The book says that it is possible to be raised to the shawl via passing the test for the shawl, via the Amyrlin declaring you AS (against custom, but within her legal power), or via the legal loophole exploited by the Salidar AS - a lawful raising to the Amyrlin Seat of a woman who is not AS makes her AS. The books also say that it is within the power of the Amyrlin to strip a woman of the shawl, and declare her no longer AS (again, against custom but within her legal powers). Joining the BA is a crime which can be punished by stilling and execution - and expulsion from the order. In fact, the books also say that by joining the BA, one ceases to be AS.

 

Lol.... secret histories - I can argue that nothing was done. We don't know. How should that affect the discussion? What we do know - SIGH - is that until Siuan no Officer of the Tower has done a thing and she didn't do much.

Actually, the point is that we know no such thing. We do not know which, if any, officers of the WT have acted against the BA in the past. We only know that they did not succeed in rooting it out and destroying it. Given the widespread belief that the BA do not exist, it is entirely possible that any attempts in the past were stymied by those tasked with rooting out the BA lacking the power - and no-one who was in a position to give them the power was willing to do so because the political will did not exist. You would need strong evidence of their existence before you could convince the Hall it was necessary.

 

Edit to add: Egwene was Amyrilin to about half the AS without swearing the 3 oaths. Why? Because, she could channel and they said that she was. If the AS give a woman legitimacy as an AS, they are AS. They never made the BA illegitimate. They treat all the members as AS. Therefore, they are AS. That's the way I see it.

Egwene made the BA illegitimate. Does that not count? And it required more than just AS saying she was AS to make it true.

[shortkut]

they cease being AS after Eggyms mandate. That, as you seem to be fond of saying is a legal loophole. Just because she applied it retroactively, does not mean that 1 year before she was amyrlin they were not AS. It isn't balefire. in the books we see AS still consider the BA to be part of the other ajah as well. Face it, they are still AS... or were until Eggy kicked them out.

[Vardar]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

 

Pretty sure I answered the original question on the first page. If the seanchan win, there can be no new AOL because of how they treat channelers. It won't happen because channelers need free range to experiment.

 

Doesnt the wheel have 7 ages?

 

1, Pre-channeling, 2, channeling, 3, tainted, 4, seanchan-ruled, 5, dissapearance of channeling, 6, some other one 7, ours.

(just an example)

 

If all the tech from the AoL were purely power driven, then I'd think there would be more remaining of it in the third age. I say the loss of the sho'wings has more to do with the loss of manufacturing than loss of power knowledge, and therefore the AoL can arise even in a world without AS.

 

It wasn't purely power driven, but it was driven by allowing science and power to mix to create the tech. Why would channeling dissapear under Seanchan rule? They may do a lot wrong, but the odds of channeling leaving under them shouldn't happen.

 

However I see what you're saying, and it's an interesting idea. The real question is how does channeling dissapear. Without that we really can't talk much about the rest.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

 

Pretty sure I answered the original question on the first page. If the seanchan win, there can be no new AOL because of how they treat channelers. It won't happen because channelers need free range to experiment.

 

Doesnt the wheel have 7 ages?

 

1, Pre-channeling, 2, channeling, 3, tainted, 4, seanchan-ruled, 5, dissapearance of channeling, 6, some other one 7, ours.

(just an example)

 

If all the tech from the AoL were purely power driven, then I'd think there would be more remaining of it in the third age. I say the loss of the sho'wings has more to do with the loss of manufacturing than loss of power knowledge, and therefore the AoL can arise even in a world without AS.

 

It wasn't purely power driven, but it was driven by allowing science and power to mix to create the tech. Why would channeling dissapear under Seanchan rule? They may do a lot wrong, but the odds of channeling leaving under them shouldn't happen.

 

However I see what you're saying, and it's an interesting idea. The real question is how does channeling dissapear. Without that we really can't talk much about the rest.

 

It was as purely Power driven as possible. So far we haven't heard of a single piece of advanced technology which worked without the One Power. Even lightbulbs are powered with the One Power and not electricity.

 

As for how channelling might dissappear, we already know that the percentage of channellers has been decreasing since the AOL as well as the average strength of the channellers. If that trend continues the trait of being able to touch the One Power may disappear until the Wheel turns for it to reappear. Or another possibility might be that the Stedding grow until they cover the entire world.

[Vardar]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

 

Pretty sure I answered the original question on the first page. If the seanchan win, there can be no new AOL because of how they treat channelers. It won't happen because channelers need free range to experiment.

 

Doesnt the wheel have 7 ages?

 

1, Pre-channeling, 2, channeling, 3, tainted, 4, seanchan-ruled, 5, dissapearance of channeling, 6, some other one 7, ours.

(just an example)

 

If all the tech from the AoL were purely power driven, then I'd think there would be more remaining of it in the third age. I say the loss of the sho'wings has more to do with the loss of manufacturing than loss of power knowledge, and therefore the AoL can arise even in a world without AS.

 

It wasn't purely power driven, but it was driven by allowing science and power to mix to create the tech. Why would channeling dissapear under Seanchan rule? They may do a lot wrong, but the odds of channeling leaving under them shouldn't happen.

 

However I see what you're saying, and it's an interesting idea. The real question is how does channeling dissapear. Without that we really can't talk much about the rest.

 

It was as purely Power driven as possible. So far we haven't heard of a single piece of advanced technology which worked without the One Power. Even lightbulbs are powered with the One Power and not electricity.

 

As for how channelling might dissappear, we already know that the percentage of channellers has been decreasing since the AOL as well as the average strength of the channellers. If that trend continues the trait of being able to touch the One Power may disappear until the Wheel turns for it to reappear. Or another possibility might be that the Stedding grow until they cover the entire world.

 

It's only decreasing in Randland. The Seanchan and Shara (Maybe even the Seafolk) have higher numbers. Plus if they decreasd a little, it's mostly due to the backlash making men go insane and removing them from the gene pool (However we've discussed this pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that his idea about genetics and how culling works is extremely flawed and so we'll just take him at his face value).

 

Did you read the BWB? Science worked with the OP to create the marvels. It started out with science, and they learned to mix the two. The OP is just a source of energy in most cases.