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Alric

Characters you picture(d) incorrectly

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I've never figured out what is average height there.

 

Oh, I was just guessing that average was 6'. Maybe i should rephrase to: I always pictured Gawyn as 6', but he is actually quite a bit taller; as tall as Rand.

 

Well Rand's only 6'5, so it's not that far off.

As someone who is 6' and has quite a few friends who are 6'5''; 5" is actually quite a difference.

 

I'm 6'0ish (Closer to 6'1) as well, and I don't really notice it until it's 6'7 and above. I mean 3 inches can damn near be the shoes you wear, but then again it might be a mental thing for me, since I have unnaturally short legs, when I sit down, I'm as tall as a person who's 6'5 or 6'6, so I really don't notice until taller heights.

 

 

ANd yea I never got Eggy as short either. Or at least not Ny short, I took Ny to be unnaturally short, like 5 feet.

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I picture Trollocs as just generic Tolkien orcs, I know they have the insane super-height and bulk plus varied animal parts but just in all the battle scenes with thousands of them running about that description fails me and I just picture generic humany orc bad guys.

 

I screwed up a lot of my Seanchan/Aiel images too. Since the Aiel not having dark hair/complexion is just so at odds with how I would picture any nomadic type arid people, and some of the first descriptions of Seanchans I really remember were off that Mor guy and stuff who had blonde hair so I just immediately tagged that entire continent as having really fair-skinned people. Also since I picture Tairens/Aiel as really dark already, it didn't seem as odd that the Seanchan were somewhat the opposite.

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I picture Trollocs as just generic Tolkien orcs, I know they have the insane super-height and bulk plus varied animal parts but just in all the battle scenes with thousands of them running about that description fails me and I just picture generic humany orc bad guys.

 

I screwed up a lot of my Seanchan/Aiel images too. Since the Aiel not having dark hair/complexion is just so at odds with how I would picture any nomadic type arid people, and some of the first descriptions of Seanchans I really remember were off that Mor guy and stuff who had blonde hair so I just immediately tagged that entire continent as having really fair-skinned people. Also since I picture Tairens/Aiel as really dark already, it didn't seem as odd that the Seanchan were somewhat the opposite.

 

Wait, the Aiel are fair skinned? I thought they were tan! (How can people in the desert be fair...

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Many of the Aiel are tan. I think we assume that, because they have red and blond hair, that they are "ginger;" but RJ describes many of them, especially wise ones, as being tan. And it seems that the Seachan are the most diverse culture, being having people who are black, white, blond and brunette, blue-eyed, dark-eyed, and everywhere in-between.

 

On another note, I could never quite figure out what RJ meant when he described Saldeans as having "tilted eyes"

Edited by roocifer

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Many of the Aiel are tan. I think we assume that, because they have red and blond hair, that they are "ginger;" but RJ describes many of them, especially wise ones, as being tan. And it seems that the Seachan are the most diverse culture, being having people who are black, white, blond and brunette, blue-eyed, dark-eyed, and everywhere in-between.

 

On another note, I could never quite figure out what RJ meant when he described Saldeans as having "tilted eyes"

 

TIlted, I too to be Japanese type eyes.

 

Oh, people took the red hair for ginger, ok I can see that I guess. (I heard desert and instantly thought tan, without a doubt, regardless of hair color)

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It's been so long since I first read the series that it's hard to remember what my initial impressions were. On first reread I paid very close attention to descriptions and taught myself all the correct pronunciations. There are just a few cases where I remember my imaginings to be different from the description, and that's with Verin, Cadsuane, and the Ogier. With all the talk of older age and the somewhat grandmotherly (lol) disposition of Verin and Cadsuane, I always pictured them as elderly looking, if still agile and able, with wrinkled faces and all. On top of that, I always have difficulty conjuring up an image of Cadsuane as being a normal build; I always picture her as stout. As for the Ogier, I always imagined them more as ogres from Shrek, perhaps with an overabundance of fur (not hair). I took great pains to correct these on my last read.

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In regards to the Aiel, i think they're bronze in places that are exposed to the sun. I remember in tEotW when Elaida rolls up Rand's sleeve where he hasn't been tanned and she comments about how Two Rivers ppl don't have that skin color along with hair/eyes. I took that to mean Aiel are naturally fair once the baking wears off.

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In regards to the Aiel, i think they're bronze in places that are exposed to the sun. I remember in tEotW when Elaida rolls up Rand's sleeve where he hasn't been tanned and she comments about how Two Rivers ppl don't have that skin color along with hair/eyes. I took that to mean Aiel are naturally fair once the baking wears off.

 

Hmm, I was going to inquire if 3000 years is long enough for people to evolve, however given the Saladean descriptions and such, it is. So, good point, they shouldn't be pale if they're in the sun all the time.

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (sp?).

Edited by driedraspberry

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Oh, I also pictured Egeanin as a blond first too. I still have to correct that in my head sometimes.

 

Elaida isn't blonde? Gah I've always pictured her as blonde.

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (so?).

 

Yea but in less time than that, countries in that land had time to develop differences. Height, eyes, skin etc. (Which is why I started to ask if 3000 was long enough, but then mentioned Saldean eyes proving in their world, it is more than long enough)

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (so?).

 

Yea but in less time than that, countries in that land had time to develop differences. Height, eyes, skin etc. (Which is why I started to ask if 3000 was long enough, but then mentioned Saldean eyes proving in their world, it is more than long enough)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't evidence of people developing distinct features after the breaking, more like lands moving around. Saldeans could've evolved their eyes before the breaking. Aiel features were distinct in AoL. Lanfear looks like a modern Caihrienin...

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (so?).

 

Yea but in less time than that, countries in that land had time to develop differences. Height, eyes, skin etc. (Which is why I started to ask if 3000 was long enough, but then mentioned Saldean eyes proving in their world, it is more than long enough)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't evidence of people developing distinct features after the breaking, more like lands moving around. Saldeans could've evolved their eyes before the breaking. Aiel features were distinct in AoL. Lanfear looks like a modern Caihrienin...

 

No, Lanfear is actually quite tall.

 

If they developed those features pre breaking (height, eyes, skin, etc) that means we have to believe all those people managed to move back together after things settled down? So, the world is in turmoil, everyone is struggling to survive, and once things settle down, everyone moves back to people who look like them? It makes more sense to imagine those features developed post breaking.

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Oh, I also pictured Egeanin as a blond first too. I still have to correct that in my head sometimes.

 

Elaida isn't blonde? Gah I've always pictured her as blonde.

 

Ugh, me too. Now I have to reevaluate everything.

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (so?).

 

Yea but in less time than that, countries in that land had time to develop differences. Height, eyes, skin etc. (Which is why I started to ask if 3000 was long enough, but then mentioned Saldean eyes proving in their world, it is more than long enough)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't evidence of people developing distinct features after the breaking, more like lands moving around. Saldeans could've evolved their eyes before the breaking. Aiel features were distinct in AoL. Lanfear looks like a modern Caihrienin...

 

No, Lanfear is actually quite tall.

 

If they developed those features pre breaking (height, eyes, skin, etc) that means we have to believe all those people managed to move back together after things settled down? So, the world is in turmoil, everyone is struggling to survive, and once things settle down, everyone moves back to people who look like them? It makes more sense to imagine those features developed post breaking.

 

Why wouldn't people gravitate to people of their own land/ethnicity/culture after the breaking? We know the Aiel did.

 

As to Lanfear, she's unusually tall, but not impossible for a Cairheinin. Loial who has a keen eye for these things had no qualms believing her. Besides what are the odds she has every other feature? Skin/hair/eye color are slower to change than height anyway. Breaking would actually contributed to that through extended malnutrition.

Edited by driedraspberry

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The Aiel are naturally fair-skinned. Anything exposed to the sun is very sun-darkened, but whenever we see them strip they're described as being very fair skinned everywhere the sun don't shine (which is pretty much everywhere but the hands and face and maybe the forearms).

 

 

Yea see that makes no sense to me. They would evolve over those 3000 years to be darker of skin, the body's natural reaction. Which is why I pictured them being while not dark skinned, surely not Fair (Which to me fair is like ginger pale). They'd need to be darker than two rivers people

 

Hmm perhaps not. 3000 years is not a whole lot of evolutionary time. While we've seen quite a lot of divergence in appearance amongst the Indo-European lot over 10,000yrs they did a lot of mixing with the locals.

 

The way I took it is Two Rivers ppl are naturally darker but not very dark, more like olive tonned. Ariel are more fair but tan to a much brown/bronze shade. And all this is due to their origins before the breaking. Lanfear, for example, retained many of the features we contribute to Chairein (so?).

 

Yea but in less time than that, countries in that land had time to develop differences. Height, eyes, skin etc. (Which is why I started to ask if 3000 was long enough, but then mentioned Saldean eyes proving in their world, it is more than long enough)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't evidence of people developing distinct features after the breaking, more like lands moving around. Saldeans could've evolved their eyes before the breaking. Aiel features were distinct in AoL. Lanfear looks like a modern Caihrienin...

 

No, Lanfear is actually quite tall.

 

If they developed those features pre breaking (height, eyes, skin, etc) that means we have to believe all those people managed to move back together after things settled down? So, the world is in turmoil, everyone is struggling to survive, and once things settle down, everyone moves back to people who look like them? It makes more sense to imagine those features developed post breaking.

 

Why wouldn't people gravitate to people of their own land/ethnicity/culture after the breaking? We know the Aiel did.

 

As to Lanfear, she's unusually tall, but not impossible for a Cairheinin. Loial who has a keen eye for these things had no qualms believing her. Besides what are the odds she has every other feature? Skin/hair/eye color are slower to change than height anyway. Breaking would actually contributed to that through extended malnutrition.

 

The Aiel didn't really gravitate to each other, they stayed together.

 

Well the main feature is Cairhein is their height (and I think they're pretty pale). Lanfear is nearly Rand's height. Even Perirn makes note of it. Loial believes it because she speaks to him formally. She would tower over those people.

 

With so many countries outright destroyed, I'd find it hard to believe people would try to go back to people who had the same facial features as them. I think 3000 years is plently of time to develop features. (I wonder if the Aiel were always tall, or if that developed as well)

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It's not about "looks" but shared culture, the sense of sameness and home in a new world. Why do you think immigrants form their own communities?

 

Bottleneck effect would have effectively reduced Cairheinins potential for height. Also Lanfear is tall for a woman but not near Rand's height. Anyway, it's far more genetically unlikely for her to retaint their other features randomly than to have an unusual height.

 

Also Aiel were also seperated if not scattered. I assume that's how the clans started. We know for sure the Jenn seperated from the others. And yet they all ended up in the waste....

Edited by driedraspberry

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It's not about "looks" but shared culture, the sense of sameness and home in a new world. Why do you think immigrants form communities.

 

Bottleneck effect would have effectively reduced Cairheinins potential for height. Also Lanfear is tall for a woman but not near Rand's height.

 

Also Aiel were also seperated if not scattered. I assume that's how the clans started. We know for sure the Jenn seperated from the others. And yet they all ended up in the waste....

Perrin and Rand mentioned her height. I believe just short of looking him in the eye was mentioned. Her height is noticible on a woman.

 

No the Jenn were with the original Aiel, the split occured while traveling to the waste, yet they stayed together.

 

There was no "culture" post breaking. All culture today, came after the breaking. Heck, some of it is even post Hawkwing, when all countries were lost and reborn again and again. So to have Saldean's, with tilted eyes, there was no Saldea in the breaking, hell it didn't come along until post Hawkwing, so even that says it doesn't take much time for dinstinctive features to develop. However, perhaps those eyes were present in the country that was there before Saldea. Caerhin was post breaking for sure, and post hawkwing, but perhaps they were short already in Hawkwing's time.

 

Still, 3000 years of desert life would darken the skin tone.

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It's not about "looks" but shared culture, the sense of sameness and home in a new world. Why do you think immigrants form communities.

 

Bottleneck effect would have effectively reduced Cairheinins potential for height. Also Lanfear is tall for a woman but not near Rand's height.

 

Also Aiel were also seperated if not scattered. I assume that's how the clans started. We know for sure the Jenn seperated from the others. And yet they all ended up in the waste....

Perrin and Rand mentioned her height. I believe just short of looking him in the eye was mentioned. Her height is noticible on a woman.

 

No the Jenn were with the original Aiel, the split occured while traveling to the waste, yet they stayed together.

 

There was no "culture" post breaking. All culture today, came after the breaking. Heck, some of it is even post Hawkwing, when all countries were lost and reborn again and again. So to have Saldean's, with tilted eyes, there was no Saldea in the breaking, hell it didn't come along until post Hawkwing, so even that says it doesn't take much time for dinstinctive features to develop. However, perhaps those eyes were present in the country that was there before Saldea. Caerhin was post breaking for sure, and post hawkwing, but perhaps they were short already in Hawkwing's time.

 

Still, 3000 years of desert life would darken the skin tone.

 

The Saldeans might have refered to themselves something else, but that doesn't mean they weren't a distinct people with their own culture. Borders change and ppl migrate, but there is no reason to doubt origin.

 

Genetically speaking, a select group of a certain origin/ethnicity surviving mass extinction would carry traits prominent amongst the surviving group and produce it at a higher frequency. So say if tilted eyes was already represented amongst these people and if few of them survived, tilted eyes could've randomly been exaggerated cuz of the changes to the gene pool.

 

As to the Aiel, seperated or not, because they've been sexing only each other, their gene pool is restricted. So alterations happen, but there is a limit unless useful mutations happen, which are very rare. I assume they're darker and stronger than the average Aiel in AoL, but only to the extreme of their potential without another gene pool to aid their transformation.

Edited by driedraspberry

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The city of Cairhien was built by the Ogier before the Trolloc Wars. There was an Ogier city where Fal Dara stands that was likewise before the trolloc wars. The nations have new names and borders, but generally people don't move around too much, and 2-3 thousand years seems long enough to put in a bit of genetic drift.

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It's not about "looks" but shared culture, the sense of sameness and home in a new world. Why do you think immigrants form communities.

 

Bottleneck effect would have effectively reduced Cairheinins potential for height. Also Lanfear is tall for a woman but not near Rand's height.

 

Also Aiel were also seperated if not scattered. I assume that's how the clans started. We know for sure the Jenn seperated from the others. And yet they all ended up in the waste....

Perrin and Rand mentioned her height. I believe just short of looking him in the eye was mentioned. Her height is noticible on a woman.

 

No the Jenn were with the original Aiel, the split occured while traveling to the waste, yet they stayed together.

 

There was no "culture" post breaking. All culture today, came after the breaking. Heck, some of it is even post Hawkwing, when all countries were lost and reborn again and again. So to have Saldean's, with tilted eyes, there was no Saldea in the breaking, hell it didn't come along until post Hawkwing, so even that says it doesn't take much time for dinstinctive features to develop. However, perhaps those eyes were present in the country that was there before Saldea. Caerhin was post breaking for sure, and post hawkwing, but perhaps they were short already in Hawkwing's time.

 

Still, 3000 years of desert life would darken the skin tone.

 

And where would the alleles for a darker skin tone come from? The Aiel have had very little intermixing with people of different ethnicity, and the fact that they cover up from head to toe with clothing limits any natural selection pressure. More than anything else, I'd expect the Aiel to have "evolved" the least out of all the cultures, given both their reproductive isolation and limited gene pool with regards to skin tone.

 

Other nations may have started off more diversified and tended to different norms from the initial gene pool, but the Aiel are excepted from that.

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It's not about "looks" but shared culture, the sense of sameness and home in a new world. Why do you think immigrants form communities.

 

Bottleneck effect would have effectively reduced Cairheinins potential for height. Also Lanfear is tall for a woman but not near Rand's height.

 

Also Aiel were also seperated if not scattered. I assume that's how the clans started. We know for sure the Jenn seperated from the others. And yet they all ended up in the waste....

Perrin and Rand mentioned her height. I believe just short of looking him in the eye was mentioned. Her height is noticible on a woman.

 

No the Jenn were with the original Aiel, the split occured while traveling to the waste, yet they stayed together.

 

There was no "culture" post breaking. All culture today, came after the breaking. Heck, some of it is even post Hawkwing, when all countries were lost and reborn again and again. So to have Saldean's, with tilted eyes, there was no Saldea in the breaking, hell it didn't come along until post Hawkwing, so even that says it doesn't take much time for dinstinctive features to develop. However, perhaps those eyes were present in the country that was there before Saldea. Caerhin was post breaking for sure, and post hawkwing, but perhaps they were short already in Hawkwing's time.

 

Still, 3000 years of desert life would darken the skin tone.

 

And where would the alleles for a darker skin tone come from? The Aiel have had very little intermixing with people of different ethnicity, and the fact that they cover up from head to toe with clothing limits any natural selection pressure. More than anything else, I'd expect the Aiel to have "evolved" the least out of all the cultures, given both their reproductive isolation and limited gene pool with regards to skin tone.

 

Other nations may have started off more diversified and tended to different norms from the initial gene pool, but the Aiel are excepted from that.

 

Evolution. The genes are already there, they would come out more.

The city of Cairhien was built by the Ogier before the Trolloc Wars. There was an Ogier city where Fal Dara stands that was likewise before the trolloc wars. The nations have new names and borders, but generally people don't move around too much, and 2-3 thousand years seems long enough to put in a bit of genetic drift.

 

Exactly.

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The WoT universe probably doesn't even have evolution, because there's no natural selection. The Wheel's power to manipulate marriages and genetic randomness trumps natural selection, and if natural selection ever managed to happen anyway, the Wheel would just spit out a ta'veren that undid it.

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