Who healed Verin in the Dragon Reborn?

[bigdoug1971]

Hello friends and fellow WOTmaniacs!

 

I'm doing a re-read right now, taking my time and going slow to savor it all and have it fresh in my memory when the final book gets here.....

 

Anyway, when Verin, Nyneave, Elayne, and Hurin are carrying Mat back to Tar Valon for Healing from the dagger at the beginning of the book, we are reminded that not only is it dangerous to be around the dagger very much, but that Mat can infect those around him as well. We are told this when Moiraine finds them at Master Gill's inn in TGH, it's mentioned by Vandene or Adelas when Moiriane visits them, and when Verin and company arrive at Tar Valon too. Everyone is told (including the 2 men Sheriam bring to carry Mat away into the Tower on his litter) to minimize all contact with Mat.

 

They have been traveling a long time with him all the way from Falme, and Verin tells the girls that Mat probably only has hours to live. They've all been near him, touching him, and messing with his blankets and the bag containing the Horn and Seal being carried on his litter. It's also said that Verin is Cleansing/Healing more than once a day by the time they reach the Tower. I can understand that she can Cleanse the girls and Hurin from being in contact and/or being close to Mat during their travels. That's perfectly believable to me even though it's never mentioned. But if Verin has both been near him and laid hands on him for Healing, then what keeps her from being touched by the evil of Shadar Logoth? Even Moiraine feels dirty after she finds him in Caemlyn and everyone who talks about Shadar Logoth says that even a pebble from there can affect the person carrying it then spread on to others too.

 

Again, my question is how does Verin avoid being "infected"?

[Alanna]

I don't think Verin was Healing everyone, just Mat. My understanding is that touching the dagger itself can infect you, but that just being near Mat and and near the dagger isn't infection. I know that Moiraine and some others earlier talked about it being that infectious, but I think they were wrong. I'm pretty sure RJ said somewhere in an interview that they overestimated how the evil could spread, and that only direct contact with the dagger itself would be dangerous. Let me see if I can find that quote, shouldn't take long.

[Alanna]

Okay, from an old DragonCon panel - here's the quote, which I took from Terez's interview database, the section on Mat (which is here).

 

(The bold is mine)

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

RJ: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

So, neither Verin nor the girls were really in any danger being near him or touching him - only if they had touched the dagger would they have been in danger.

[bigdoug1971]

Thanks! I'll have to find a place to read up on some of those interviews. Lots of interesting questions and answers in there.

[Alanna]

I know, I've always meant to read more of them too and am just now getting around to it. I read the whole section on Mat the other day, so I remembered reading the answer about the dagger there.

[thisguy]

Okay, from an old DragonCon panel - here's the quote, which I took from Terez's interview database, the section on Mat (which is here).

 

(The bold is mine)

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

RJ: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

So, neither Verin nor the girls were really in any danger being near him or touching him - only if they had touched the dagger would they have been in danger.

Wow. I haven't really read much of what RJ himself had to say on his material until coming here about a month ago. Thanks for posting this. Great stuff.

[Zorlon]

Even without the dagger it's pretty clear just being near Fain for hours at a time was enough to infect the guards in TGH.

 

Is this just another thing, like the Ageless Look(or possibly the Care Bears), which Jordan changed his mind about?

[Suttree]

Okay, from an old DragonCon panel - here's the quote, which I took from Terez's interview database, the section on Mat (which is here).

 

(The bold is mine)

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

RJ: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

So, neither Verin nor the girls were really in any danger being near him or touching him - only if they had touched the dagger would they have been in danger.

 

You don't have to actually touch it. As long as Fain has it, prolonged exposure can start to effect you. It's what happened to Elaida and the WT after all from his stay there. We see the same in just about every stop Fain makes.

[Zorlon]

Okay, from an old DragonCon panel - here's the quote, which I took from Terez's interview database, the section on Mat (which is here).

 

(The bold is mine)

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

RJ: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

So, neither Verin nor the girls were really in any danger being near him or touching him - only if they had touched the dagger would they have been in danger.

 

You don't have to actually touch it. As long as Fain has it, prolonged exposure can start to effect you. It's what happened to Elaida and the WT after all from his stay there. We see the same in just about every stop Fain makes.

Even without the dagger just being near Fain was enough to turn the Fal Dara guards mean in TGH.

 

Though, as I said above, like the Ageless Look or(possibly) where Tam got his sword this just might be one of the things Jordan changed his mind about halfway through.

[Alanna]

Yeah, it's true that being around Fain could affect you, although I kind of always thought that was because he's Mordeth, or part Mordeth, or whatever. I mean, he was tainted with the Shadar Logoth evil even before he ever had the dagger.

 

It's also possible Mat wasn't a danger because of what Moiraine did? I'm trying to remember, but in TEOTW, when they all meet up again in Camelyn, she does something to "contain" the evil - to keep it from affecting Mat, at least, and I think everyone else.

[Alanna]

Okay, I just read that bit, and Moiraine says she contained the evil so the Shadowspawn couldn't sense it anymore (apparently they could, which is why Darkfriends plagued the two of them their whole way to Camelyn). She also says she "cleanses" the taint from Mat, but that it would eventually return. The thing is, we really don't see that. Mat becomes very ill, physically, but he never starts turning evil again with the dagger.

 

So, I think the best explanation is that Fain himself can affect people, because he himself is a part of that evil the same way the dagger is. When Fain affected those guards in TGH, he had never actually lain a hand on the dagger himself yet. Mat himself was never a "part" of it, so to speak, he was just carrying a part of it with him.

[Terez]

I'll have to find a place to read up on some of those interviews. Lots of interesting questions and answers in there.

I know, I've always meant to read more of them too and am just now getting around to it. I read the whole section on Mat the other day, so I remembered reading the answer about the dagger there.

 

That is the best way to peruse the database - pick a tag for something that interests you and read the whole thing. The ones for major characters (like Mat) are really long, though. Some are even longer (like 'rj on writing').

 

PS: If you're looking for a place to read up on them, here. Alanna, I just noticed from your link that you are using the old database. Definitely use the new one instead; it's got 10x as much stuff.

[Alanna]

Awesome, thanks!

[Morsker]

PS: If you're looking for a place to read up on them, here. Alanna, I just noticed from your link that you are using the old database. Definitely use the new one instead; it's got 10x as much stuff.

Oh wow, I didn't know about that new database until now.

 

Was it intentional to rename "Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996" to "ACOS Signing Report"? It was randomly the first thing I searched for, and at first I thought it was missing, but then I found the quotes I was looking for under the new name.

[Terez]

All the WoT fans called it the post-ACOS book tour, so I think we just simplified it.

[Dagon Thyne]

I don't think Verin was Healing everyone, just Mat. My understanding is that touching the dagger itself can infect you, but that just being near Mat and and near the dagger isn't infection. I know that Moiraine and some others earlier talked about it being that infectious, but I think they were wrong. I'm pretty sure RJ said somewhere in an interview that they overestimated how the evil could spread, and that only direct contact with the dagger itself would be dangerous. Let me see if I can find that quote, shouldn't take long.

 

being near the dagger long enough will cause infection, at least it could before Moiraine healed Mat. I believe she bound it to him in some way that allowed him to openly carry it without infecting others.

[BFG]

I think Moiraine cleansed Mat as much as she could, but didn't have the strength to sever the link, but following the attack at FD, there was a group of AS that healed Mat, and when they're talking of people who could carry the dagger they commented that Mat had already been shielded as much as someone could from the dagger. Fain started infecting people before he had the dagger, so I think that either the infection had to do with being part Fain, Dark One's Hound, Mordeth and Machin Shin, or in their case because they could have been DF already, saving Agelmars life at the Gap doesn't prevent this as Ingtar showed. However the first is the simpler explanation, as Fain also goes on to infect others before he gets the knife (he infects whitecloaks before he nabs the knife again).

[jsbrads]

also remember that Mat in Camlyn was not rosy, happy fun for all before Moraine did her Voodoo

 

if you recall Mat was saying just the right thing to harm his friends, I recall him commenting on Perrin and Nynaeve, hurting their feelings pretty badly. if that been allowed to continue, he may have not only torn the group asunder, but even changed his friends attitude toward the world, which is Moridin's prime directive