Ok how about this? Lets get it in a poll

[mike hunt's here]

Sorry - this is so interesting to me that I want to see what others think without long rambling sentences or arguing back and forth.

[Suttree]

With "battle luck" & Finn memories...Mat. Without them Lan wins.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hmm, trying not to ramble here, but I donno about Mat with his missing eye, luck only goes so far. Also, Lan was the best pre-FoH, when Moiraine "died" he became a monster. I would go Lan as of aMoL, but Mat pre-ToG.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Fast. Fast enough to catch the knife you threw at him and whip it right back in your eye. Fast enough to defend himself against a dozen Aiel, and take down several while he is at it. Fast enough to go toe to toe with a gholam. Lucky. Lucky to the point he could kill you from 20 paces, with his eyes closed, drunk on oosquai. Lucky to the point you will trip, fall and land right on his spear. Lucky to the point you could cut your own arm off swinging a sword at him :p. outrageous skill with his ashandarei, combined with his speed and the natural advantage his weapon gives him over a lone swordsman, i'd say if he felt like it Mat could kill Lan with just a few scratches in return. Lan is very good blademaster, among best ever. But Mat, frankly, is a supersoldier who happens to have so much luck he probably doesnt even really need all his skill. When Mat genuinely wants to put a hurt on somebody, they don't seem to have a prayer. It's just that he usually doesn't want to hurt people. If he was serious and didn't hesitate, Lan would be toast. No contest. (btw Lan IS badass, but you can't beat bloody luck!)

 

 

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain, Lan Gaidin! *ROAR*

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Hmm, trying not to ramble here, but I donno about Mat with his missing eye, luck only goes so far. Also, Lan was the best pre-FoH, when Moiraine "died" he became a monster. I would go Lan as of aMoL, but Mat pre-ToG.

I would argue the missing eye will make him even more dangerous. The less he is in direct control of, the more his luck can take over. I wouldnt be surprised if the man fought better blindfolded.

[bcspeer]

I would say Lan because in a way, he wants to die and that makes him dangerous. But then again, luck does play a factor. If they relied on skill alone, Lan would win

[Shig]

For all the reasons listed by...well Matrim Bloody Cauthon himself mat is more than likely to defeat lan. Lan is the best of the best of the best of the ordinary people, and possibly my favorite character, but Rand, mat and perrin because of their respective actions have really become something more, although that's not to say that they're perfect or unbeatable.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

At first I voted Lan. But in retrospect I think it's just because we haven't seen Lan and anyone but Rand on screen together in a very long time. And rand doesn't do much sword fighting anymore so it's kind of hard to judge how far Lan's skills have come vs. Mat or Perrin's.

 

 

I will say this, it would probably be closer than anyone believes seeing as Thom was able to throw a knife and pin Mat's sleeve. It would probably depend on if Mat's luck differentiates between a friendly spar, and an actual two the death fight.

[Vardar]

Honestly, the only way Lan would have a chance is if Mat had to use a sword, and even then, Mat has the memories of more men who weilded the sword than you can count, so even then it would be a hell of a fight. But given the obvious weapon choice, even without his Luck, Mat would kick Lan's Ass. He wouldn't even have to kill him, he'd subdue him and ask him what was his bloody problem.

[Vardar]

At first I voted Lan. But in retrospect I think it's just because we haven't seen Lan and anyone but Rand on screen together in a very long time. And rand doesn't do much sword fighting anymore so it's kind of hard to judge how far Lan's skills have come vs. Mat or Perrin's.

 

 

I will say this, it would probably be closer than anyone believes seeing as Thom was able to throw a knife and pin Mat's sleeve. It would probably depend on if Mat's luck differentiates between a friendly spar, and an actual two the death fight.

 

 

When was that? Thom said Mat has the fastest hands he's even seen, this from a man who took on a Fade with daggers.

[Neophyte]

Mat, hands down.

 

Lan is good with a sword, maybe blademaster good, but his main strength is determination - his strength of will, his physical and mental toughness. Lan doesn't give up: wounded, bleeding, exhausted, even mourning, he keeps going. That's how he beat Ryne, who was, as far as technique and speed are concerned, better. You can't stop Lan until he's dead.

 

But Mat would make him dead with a quickness. I don't think it would even be very close, if Mat was taking it seriously from the start. Speed, skill, and luck, combined with ruthlessness (and Mat can be ruthless, when necessary) would mean a very dead Lan. Mat knows how dangerous Lan is - if they're fighting, he's not going to screw around. And Mat has hundreds of years worth of war memories to warn him against leaving an enemy like Lan even slightly alive.

[Suttree]

At first I voted Lan. But in retrospect I think it's just because we haven't seen Lan and anyone but Rand on screen together in a very long time. And rand doesn't do much sword fighting anymore so it's kind of hard to judge how far Lan's skills have come vs. Mat or Perrin's.

 

 

I will say this, it would probably be closer than anyone believes seeing as Thom was able to throw a knife and pin Mat's sleeve. It would probably depend on if Mat's luck differentiates between a friendly spar, and an actual two the death fight.

 

 

When was that? Thom said Mat has the fastest hands he's even seen, this from a man who took on a Fade with daggers.

 

It was in ToM and lets not get carried away. If they both used swords Mat would get destroyed luck or no.

[Vardar]

At first I voted Lan. But in retrospect I think it's just because we haven't seen Lan and anyone but Rand on screen together in a very long time. And rand doesn't do much sword fighting anymore so it's kind of hard to judge how far Lan's skills have come vs. Mat or Perrin's.

 

 

I will say this, it would probably be closer than anyone believes seeing as Thom was able to throw a knife and pin Mat's sleeve. It would probably depend on if Mat's luck differentiates between a friendly spar, and an actual two the death fight.

 

 

When was that? Thom said Mat has the fastest hands he's even seen, this from a man who took on a Fade with daggers.

 

It was in ToM and lets not get carried away. If they both used swords Mat would get destroyed luck or no.

 

For all we know Mat potentially has the memories of dozens of Blademasters in his head. There's no telling what would actually occur.

[Suttree]

At first I voted Lan. But in retrospect I think it's just because we haven't seen Lan and anyone but Rand on screen together in a very long time. And rand doesn't do much sword fighting anymore so it's kind of hard to judge how far Lan's skills have come vs. Mat or Perrin's.

 

 

I will say this, it would probably be closer than anyone believes seeing as Thom was able to throw a knife and pin Mat's sleeve. It would probably depend on if Mat's luck differentiates between a friendly spar, and an actual two the death fight.

 

 

When was that? Thom said Mat has the fastest hands he's even seen, this from a man who took on a Fade with daggers.

 

It was in ToM and lets not get carried away. If they both used swords Mat would get destroyed luck or no.

 

For all we know Mat potentially has the memories of dozens of Blademasters in his head. There's no telling what would actually occur.

 

Memories without physical practice and training would do you little good. You need all of the muscle memory associated with those actions to stand a chance. I am in pretty tip top athletic shape but you could put all of Aaron Rodger's memories into my head, that doesn't mean I would be able to step in on MNF and play.

[Neophyte]

For all we know Mat potentially has the memories of dozens of Blademasters in his head. There's no telling what would actually occur.

 

I'm not sure that the memories of swordfighting, which he no doubt has, would necessarily translate into muscle memory, which is vital for any sort of high-level swordfighting. He developed extensive muscle memory using the quarterstaff prior to receiving the ashandarei and memories from the Eelfinn - so the transition to using that weapon would not have been difficult. Swordfighting might not be as simple a transition, and against Lan, a small mistake could get him dead.

 

Of course, we can't be sure that muscle memory didn't transfer, but that strikes me as unlikely, as I think it would have had odd effects on his body. Still, that's just my opinion.

 

EDIT: Suttree beat me to it.

[Vardar]

For all we know Mat potentially has the memories of dozens of Blademasters in his head. There's no telling what would actually occur.

 

I'm not sure that the memories of swordfighting, which he no doubt has, would necessarily translate into muscle memory, which is vital for any sort of high-level swordfighting. He developed extensive muscle memory using the quarterstaff prior to receiving the ashandarei and memories from the Eelfinn - so the transition to using that weapon would not have been difficult. Swordfighting might not be as simple a transition, and against Lan, a small mistake could get him dead.

 

Of course, we can't be sure that muscle memory didn't transfer, but that strikes me as unlikely, as I think it would have had odd effects on his body. Still, that's just my opinion.

 

EDIT: Suttree beat me to it.

 

I know I've seen on these boards how Rand suddenly because better by having LTT's Blademaster memories.

 

Yes I agree with muscle memory, however Mat is already in shape and used to fighting, some of the movements would be similiar enough to make it work. Thrusting with a spear, parrying with a spear, etc.

 

@Sutt, what's the MNF?

 

Anyway, if you can already throw, and have the developed muscles, I have no doubt you could quarterback well with the proper memories of years of training.

[Neophyte]

I know I've seen on these boards how Rand suddenly because better by having LTT's Blademaster memories.

 

On the boards, maybe, but not in the books I'd wager.

 

 

Yes I agree with muscle memory, however Mat is already in shape and used to fighting, some of the movements would be similiar enough to make it work. Thrusting with a spear, parrying with a spear, etc.

 

@Sutt, what's the MNF?

 

Anyway, if you can already throw, and have the developed muscles, I have no doubt you could quarterback well with the proper memories of years of training.

 

On Sutt's behalf, I'll go ahead and say that MNF is Monday Night Football, which dovetails rather nicely with your quarterback comparison.

 

As someone who has experience with baseball and American football, I can assure you that one type of "throwing" does not necessarily parlay well into a different type. The motion and muscles used by a quarterback are simply not the same ones used by a pitcher or an outfielder.

 

In addition, thrusting, parrying, etc. with a sword is nothing at all like doing similar things with a spear. Considerations of weight, balance, center-of-gravity, generating power and direction - they're all very different with different weapons. Heck, they're different between different types of swords. Give an epee to a samurai and see what happens.

 

There is a reason, other than aesthetics, that Mat sticks to the ashandarei and knives. The majority of his war memories probably involve using some form of sword (insofar as they involve personal combat), but the muscle memory developed over a young life with a staff trumps all that.

[Vardar]

I know I've seen on these boards how Rand suddenly because better by having LTT's Blademaster memories.

 

On the boards, maybe, but not in the books I'd wager.

 

 

Yes I agree with muscle memory, however Mat is already in shape and used to fighting, some of the movements would be similiar enough to make it work. Thrusting with a spear, parrying with a spear, etc.

 

@Sutt, what's the MNF?

 

Anyway, if you can already throw, and have the developed muscles, I have no doubt you could quarterback well with the proper memories of years of training.

 

On Sutt's behalf, I'll go ahead and say that MNF is Monday Night Football, which dovetails rather nicely with your quarterback comparison.

 

As someone who has experience with baseball and American football, I can assure you that one type of "throwing" does not necessarily parlay well into a different type. The motion and muscles used by a quarterback are simply not the same ones used by a pitcher or an outfielder.

 

In addition, thrusting, parrying, etc. with a sword is nothing at all like doing similar things with a spear. Considerations of weight, balance, center-of-gravity, generating power and direction - they're all very different with different weapons. Heck, they're different between different types of swords. Give an epee to a samurai and see what happens.

 

There is a reason, other than aesthetics, that Mat sticks to the ashandarei and knives. The majority of his war memories probably involve using some form of sword (insofar as they involve personal combat), but the muscle memory developed over a young life with a staff trumps all that.

 

We could get involved pretty deep in this honestly, going to at what level of ability do the real difference come into play? At a HS level, we had quite a few pitchers who could quarterback, I was one. Sure at a higher level it becomes more about the experience and such, when Mat's memories come into effect.

 

Rand has thoe same muscle memories, and yet how quickly did he pick up the sword? Weeks, months, and most of that was spent learning the forms, Mat in theory knows them.

 

I know the movements aren't exactly the same, but they're pretty damn similiar. Apples and Oranges are generally touted when people wanna say something is nothing is alike,but at the end of the day they're both round edible fruit :)

 

Thanks for the MNF, I really had no idea. Kinda odd.

 

Anyway, we'll never know, it's merely speculation. But think about this: Is Lan the best because he's the strongest or quickest, or because he has the best experience/knowledge/skill? It's the latter.

[Neophyte]

I know I've seen on these boards how Rand suddenly because better by having LTT's Blademaster memories.

 

On the boards, maybe, but not in the books I'd wager.

 

 

Yes I agree with muscle memory, however Mat is already in shape and used to fighting, some of the movements would be similiar enough to make it work. Thrusting with a spear, parrying with a spear, etc.

 

@Sutt, what's the MNF?

 

Anyway, if you can already throw, and have the developed muscles, I have no doubt you could quarterback well with the proper memories of years of training.

 

On Sutt's behalf, I'll go ahead and say that MNF is Monday Night Football, which dovetails rather nicely with your quarterback comparison.

 

As someone who has experience with baseball and American football, I can assure you that one type of "throwing" does not necessarily parlay well into a different type. The motion and muscles used by a quarterback are simply not the same ones used by a pitcher or an outfielder.

 

In addition, thrusting, parrying, etc. with a sword is nothing at all like doing similar things with a spear. Considerations of weight, balance, center-of-gravity, generating power and direction - they're all very different with different weapons. Heck, they're different between different types of swords. Give an epee to a samurai and see what happens.

 

There is a reason, other than aesthetics, that Mat sticks to the ashandarei and knives. The majority of his war memories probably involve using some form of sword (insofar as they involve personal combat), but the muscle memory developed over a young life with a staff trumps all that.

 

We could get involved pretty deep in this honestly, going to at what level of ability do the real difference come into play? At a HS level, we had quite a few pitchers who could quarterback, I was one. Sure at a higher level it becomes more about the experience and such, when Mat's memories come into effect.

 

Rand has thoe same muscle memories, and yet how quickly did he pick up the sword? Weeks, months, and most of that was spent learning the forms, Mat in theory knows them.

 

I know the movements aren't exactly the same, but they're pretty damn similiar. Apples and Oranges are generally touted when people wanna say something is nothing is alike,but at the end of the day they're both round edible fruit :)

 

Thanks for the MNF, I really had no idea. Kinda odd.

 

Anyway, we'll never know, it's merely speculation. But think about this: Is Lan the best because he's the strongest or quickest, or because he has the best experience/knowledge/skill? It's the latter.

 

Well, you're definitely right that we wouldn't know for sure unless it happened in the books, which doesn't seem likely at all.

 

And those two-sport HS athletes probably weren't good at football because of their baseball experience (or vice versa). They probably grew up playing both, and anyway, in HS a reasonably good athlete can compete in just about any sport. Lan and Mat are way above the "reasonable amateur" level as far as fighting is concerned, and the higher levels of "competition" are where specialized practice and muscle memory become more important. I'd bet that Tom Brady could grasp the fundamentals of a curveball intellectually, but he wouldn't go far on an MLB roster. So, Mat's memories (unless they include muscle memory) would become less useful at "higher" levels of fighting.

 

Rand didn't get blademaster good with the sword until he had been practicing like crazy for more than a year, importantly, to the near exclusion of all other weapons. When he killed Turak he got very, very lucky - that had little to do with skill.

 

And as to why Lan is "the best," I spoke of that in my earlier post. It's not "because he's the strongest or quickest." But it's also not because he has "the best experience/knowledge/skill." It's his mental and physical toughness, his determination and will. That is how he had beaten opponents in the past to whom he really should have lost.

 

Mat's luck aside (because that would trump anything Lan could do) I think Lan would beat Mat with a sword, because he has much more practice with that weapon. But Mat with an ashandarei vs. Lan with a sword would be a victory for Mat at least 9 times out of ten.

 

In my opinion.

[thisguy]

While Mat's Ta'Veren, he'll probably win. But, if he weren't, it's hard to say.

[Maleshub]

A clear advantage Mat has, which Vardarmus touched on, is the weapon each would use in a fight. Mat's Ashendari has longer reach; and Mat can use it to devastating effect. Lan is quick and dangerous in a sword vs. sword fight. But a sword vs. ashendari is a different story.

 

As to Mat being a "dormant" blademaster, there is no evidence whatsoever to support that notion. I am sure that Lan would shred Mat to pieces in a sword vs. sword fight.

[thisguy]

Lan would whoop Mat hand to hand. And, while it was only the 4th book and Mat has grown since then, he had trouble with a Defender of the Stone when he broke into the Stone.

 

I'll tell you you EXACTLY who would win, whoever Brandon Sanderson wrote would win.

[Vardar]

Lan would whoop Mat hand to hand. And, while it was only the 4th book and Mat has grown since then, he had trouble with a Defender of the Stone when he broke into the Stone.

 

I'll tell you you EXACTLY who would win, whoever Brandon Sanderson wrote would win.

 

I explained this (maybe not in this thread). He didn't have trouble with the Lord of the Land (Not a defender), he didn't have room to use his weapon in the narrow hallway. This example proves how badass he is. He held off, then defeated the guy when the other guy had all the advantages.

[Vardar]

I know I've seen on these boards how Rand suddenly because better by having LTT's Blademaster memories.

 

On the boards, maybe, but not in the books I'd wager.

 

 

Yes I agree with muscle memory, however Mat is already in shape and used to fighting, some of the movements would be similiar enough to make it work. Thrusting with a spear, parrying with a spear, etc.

 

@Sutt, what's the MNF?

 

Anyway, if you can already throw, and have the developed muscles, I have no doubt you could quarterback well with the proper memories of years of training.

 

On Sutt's behalf, I'll go ahead and say that MNF is Monday Night Football, which dovetails rather nicely with your quarterback comparison.

 

As someone who has experience with baseball and American football, I can assure you that one type of "throwing" does not necessarily parlay well into a different type. The motion and muscles used by a quarterback are simply not the same ones used by a pitcher or an outfielder.

 

In addition, thrusting, parrying, etc. with a sword is nothing at all like doing similar things with a spear. Considerations of weight, balance, center-of-gravity, generating power and direction - they're all very different with different weapons. Heck, they're different between different types of swords. Give an epee to a samurai and see what happens.

 

There is a reason, other than aesthetics, that Mat sticks to the ashandarei and knives. The majority of his war memories probably involve using some form of sword (insofar as they involve personal combat), but the muscle memory developed over a young life with a staff trumps all that.

 

We could get involved pretty deep in this honestly, going to at what level of ability do the real difference come into play? At a HS level, we had quite a few pitchers who could quarterback, I was one. Sure at a higher level it becomes more about the experience and such, when Mat's memories come into effect.

 

Rand has thoe same muscle memories, and yet how quickly did he pick up the sword? Weeks, months, and most of that was spent learning the forms, Mat in theory knows them.

 

I know the movements aren't exactly the same, but they're pretty damn similiar. Apples and Oranges are generally touted when people wanna say something is nothing is alike,but at the end of the day they're both round edible fruit :)

 

Thanks for the MNF, I really had no idea. Kinda odd.

 

Anyway, we'll never know, it's merely speculation. But think about this: Is Lan the best because he's the strongest or quickest, or because he has the best experience/knowledge/skill? It's the latter.

 

Well, you're definitely right that we wouldn't know for sure unless it happened in the books, which doesn't seem likely at all.

 

And those two-sport HS athletes probably weren't good at football because of their baseball experience (or vice versa). They probably grew up playing both, and anyway, in HS a reasonably good athlete can compete in just about any sport. Lan and Mat are way above the "reasonable amateur" level as far as fighting is concerned, and the higher levels of "competition" are where specialized practice and muscle memory become more important. I'd bet that Tom Brady could grasp the fundamentals of a curveball intellectually, but he wouldn't go far on an MLB roster. So, Mat's memories (unless they include muscle memory) would become less useful at "higher" levels of fighting.

 

Rand didn't get blademaster good with the sword until he had been practicing like crazy for more than a year, importantly, to the near exclusion of all other weapons. When he killed Turak he got very, very lucky - that had little to do with skill.

 

And as to why Lan is "the best," I spoke of that in my earlier post. It's not "because he's the strongest or quickest." But it's also not because he has "the best experience/knowledge/skill." It's his mental and physical toughness, his determination and will. That is how he had beaten opponents in the past to whom he really should have lost.

 

Mat's luck aside (because that would trump anything Lan could do) I think Lan would beat Mat with a sword, because he has much more practice with that weapon. But Mat with an ashandarei vs. Lan with a sword would be a victory for Mat at least 9 times out of ten.

 

In my opinion.

 

 

I'd love a scene where Mat picks up a sword, does some forms, runs someone thru, tosses it down and says, I hate these things, picks his spear back up and kicks some arse.

 

Wonder if he still carries all his daggers.

 

And where exactly does he keep them? Do they all have sheathes...

[thisguy]

Lan would whoop Mat hand to hand. And, while it was only the 4th book and Mat has grown since then, he had trouble with a Defender of the Stone when he broke into the Stone.

 

I'll tell you you EXACTLY who would win, whoever Brandon Sanderson wrote would win.

 

I explained this (maybe not in this thread). He didn't have trouble with the Lord of the Land (Not a defender), he didn't have room to use his weapon in the narrow hallway. This example proves how badass he is. He held off, then defeated the guy when the other guy had all the advantages.

 

No, he had room, he didn't have room to fight and let Juilin move past him. I'm not sure if you're talking about the guy he fought when the Stone fell (Lord of the Land), as far as I remember, that was a defender.