Something I always wondered re: Healing stilling

[cornichon]

If Siuan and Leane were stilled again and then Healed by a male channeler, would they be Healed back to their original power levels or only to the later level? Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? I'd be curious to hear the answer because I always thought this was a scene we might see.

[Suttree]

If Siuan and Leane were stilled again and then Healed by a male channeler, would they be Healed back to their original power levels or only to the later level? Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? I'd be curious to hear the answer because I always thought this was a scene we might see.

 

Theoretically yes. Don't think the question has been posed however.

[Thrasymachus]

But a male can't Heal them further, because they can already channel, and thus there's nothing to Heal, right? If so, I could theoretically see this going either way.

[cornichon]

But a male can't Heal them further, because they can already channel, and thus there's nothing to Heal, right? If so, I could theoretically see this going either way.

That's why I suggested they be stilled again before the male Heals them. In other words, take them down to 0 and let a male channeler Heal them. Are they Healed to 50 (where Nynaeve left them) or 100 (original level)?

[Thrasymachus]

That's why I could see it going either way. If a male could take them back up to 100 after stilling them again, why can't he take them back up to 100 from 50? There's nothing to Heal, right? And if they are stilled again, what's to say 50 isn't their new cap? After all, when they were at 50, there was nothing to Heal.

[Zorlon]

That's why I could see it going either way. If a male could take them back up to 100 after stilling them again, why can't he take them back up to 100 from 50? There's nothing to Heal, right? And if they are stilled again, what's to say 50 isn't their new cap? After all, when they were at 50, there was nothing to Heal.

The way I see things Ninny cobbled together a makeshift patch for something she couldn't quite fix properly, and it only works halfway.

 

So if her patch were removed and a proper bridge put in it's place, the proper part in lieu of her wad of chewing gum, then the machine should be back up to proper form.

 

At least that's what would make sense to me if I were writing the story, and it was the impression I got of how Jordan envisioned it working, but I wouldn't be so terribly surprised or dissappointed if he didn't see things my way.

[Thrasymachus]

To be honest, I always thought it was rather cheap for there to be a way to Heal stilling in the first place. Some things should be permanent.

[Zorlon]

To be honest, I always thought it was rather cheap for there to be a way to Heal stilling in the first place. Some things should be permanent.

What bothered me more was a less than half trained neophyte being the one to stumble on a solution. I know the explanations for that but they all come up pretty weak next to a less than half trained neophyte stumbling onto the solution after a few weeks of trying really hard.

 

Course, even that(and the rest of the wunder girls accomplishments) never bugged me half as much as the War of Power being able to drag on for ten years with both sides going at it full throttle.

[bcspeer]

If Nynaeve messed it up, then why was Logain fully healed and he was the first one she healed. I believe RJ even said that a man is needed to fully heal a woman and a woman is needed to fully heal a man.

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Nynaeve messed it up, then why was Logain fully healed and he was the first one she healed. I believe RJ even said that a man is needed to fully heal a woman and a woman is needed to fully heal a man.

 

Yeah, that is the case.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

For Alys Kinch, the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective. A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration. It all ties into that theme I keep harping on. Men and women have to work together to be their most effective. And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.

 

 

What he didn't answer was what would happen if Suian and Leane were stilled again then healed by a male. They haven't done it because they are recluctant to find out. After severing, just being able to touch the Power again is wonderful, the power level is inconsequential in comparison. They don't know what will happen (they haven't figured out the male comparison since they don't know about Damer and Logain is the only male they have healed) and being stilled again is not something they are eager to try.

 

Even though Nynaeve is half trained Aes Sedai, she is in some ways more experienced than anyone from the Yellow. Remember the Tower is not exactly the greatest institution at the time, it has been on a steady decline for 3000 years. The system of channeling is inherently flawed. They have been striving to save knowledge from the AoL but have not tried to experiment or discover new things for themselves. The Yellows have only known one way of healing for centuries, and they teach that, without trying to find a better way. (in general, some Aes Sedai most likely experimented a bit throughout the history, but as an institution, this was an exception).

 

When a group is stuck in traditional ways, even in real life it is often the case that new blood with a new perspective comes up with different or better methods. Plus Nynaeve has been unconsciously healing for years. It is something ingrained into her personality, it is a subconscious thing almost.

 

Edit: Re: War of Power: Remember that this was not like a world war. WW1-2 lasted what, 4-5 years. But these wars, neither side actually wanted to fight, as soon as a reasonable peace could be arranged, and their leaders subdued, they quickly made peace. With the Shadow, there is no peace. The Shadow would not stop short of total victory, so the Light had to fight tooth and nail to survive. Take World War two for example, it wasn't really a "world war", imagine the Nazi's with 10 times as much firepower, and how long it would take to conquer the entire world, nation by nation, while those nations fought to the bitter end to defend their country. It would take a long, long time.

[Terez]

If Siuan and Leane were stilled again and then Healed by a male channeler, would they be Healed back to their original power levels or only to the later level? Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? I'd be curious to hear the answer because I always thought this was a scene we might see.

 

Theoretically yes. Don't think the question has been posed however.

 

It has been. Brandon hedged and said that, for various reasons, Siuan doesn't even want to try that.

[TristanWebb]

I bet Leane would go for it though :P

[Terez]

Maybe not, if she thought it risked being stilled permanently.

[Zorlon]

If Nynaeve messed it up, then why was Logain fully healed and he was the first one she healed. I believe RJ even said that a man is needed to fully heal a woman and a woman is needed to fully heal a man.

I didn't say she messed it up, I said she didn't have the right equipment to fix a woman so the best she could do she was jerry-rig something out of some toothpicks and a wad of chewing gum that only kinda-sorta works.

 

Take out her improvisation and put in the right part and I would expect to see things back to normal.

[Zorlon]

Even though Nynaeve is half trained Aes Sedai, she is in some ways more experienced than anyone from the Yellow. Remember the Tower is not exactly the greatest institution at the time, it has been on a steady decline for 3000 years. The system of channeling is inherently flawed. They have been striving to save knowledge from the AoL but have not tried to experiment or discover new things for themselves. The Yellows have only known one way of healing for centuries, and they teach that, without trying to find a better way. (in general, some Aes Sedai most likely experimented a bit throughout the history, but as an institution, this was an exception).

 

When a group is stuck in traditional ways, even in real life it is often the case that new blood with a new perspective comes up with different or better methods. Plus Nynaeve has been unconsciously healing for years. It is something ingrained into her personality, it is a subconscious thing almost.

I could argue with your assessment here, but I'll take the easy route and point out that no one had solved this in the AoL either. A time when they had refined their study of the OP to a science and each channeler had hundreds of years of study and practice to reach a level of expertise no one trained in current Randland can even hope for.

 

Plus, with so much already solved in the area of medicine during the AoL, anyone looking to make a name for themselves would be driven to the hard cases.

 

And with a few weeks of trying really hard Nyn cracks the ancient problem the AoL couldn't even scratch? Really?

 

Just saying that's a little hard to swallow.

 

Edit: Re: War of Power: Remember that this was not like a world war. WW1-2 lasted what, 4-5 years. But these wars, neither side actually wanted to fight, as soon as a reasonable peace could be arranged, and their leaders subdued, they quickly made peace. With the Shadow, there is no peace. The Shadow would not stop short of total victory, so the Light had to fight tooth and nail to survive. Take World War two for example, it wasn't really a "world war", imagine the Nazi's with 10 times as much firepower, and how long it would take to conquer the entire world, nation by nation, while those nations fought to the bitter end to defend their country. It would take a long, long time.

I believe you have that backwards.

 

With 10 times the firepower on both sides WWII would not have been able to last even as long as it did before both sides were devastated and the victors contemplated thier Pyrrhic victory amidst the rubble. And if only the Nazis had 10 times the firepower Britain and Moscow would have fallen before the US even entered the war.

 

It's the low intensity conflicts which simmer on forever. And that is something the War of Power was not. By all accounts it was total war.

 

And the War of Power would have had far more than 10 times the firepower of the Nazis. The magic of the AoL far outshined the magic of current Randland, and by all implications their technology far outstripped ours. If they were really going all out, balls to the wall, than their war would have been settled one way or another quicker than Mosk's and Merc's dance with Spears of Fire.

 

Or do you think the 1980s USA and USSR could have kept up a total war for a protracted period?

 

Edit: Also, re: your assessment of WWII, in what world is unconditional surrender considered a reasonable peace?

[Barid Bel Medar]

My approach was poor, so instead I will direct you to a detailed account of what actually happened in the War of Power Robert Jordan wrote in the Guide. http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0312862199

 

As to Nynaeve, I probably misread, but didn't know you were referring to the AoL here. In which case, I agree, but there are real world cases like this. Many major discoveries in science and other areas have come randomly. Plus the Pattern and Wheel had a hand in it most likely.

[Zorlon]

My approach was poor, so instead I will direct you to a detailed account of what actually happened in the War of Power Robert Jordan wrote in the Guide. http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0312862199

I've read that. I just don't think it holds up to scrutiny when considered in light of everything else said about the WoP being a total war in which entire cities were being balefired.

 

As to Nynaeve, I probably misread, but didn't know you were referring to the AoL here. In which case, I agree, but there are real world cases like this. Many major discoveries in science and other areas have come randomly. Plus the Pattern and Wheel had a hand in it most likely.

I wasn't only referring to the AoL, but figured there'd be less potential for argument on that topic than a discussion about the merits of fresh eyes vs proper training.

 

But since you bring it up, yes lots of discoveries have come randomly in the sciences, but those were not the sort of discoveries hundreds of properly trained and equipped researchers failed to make. Nor were they discovered by half trained neophytes. Even self taught people are still fully taught in all the relevant material.

 

Even that German/Indian lad who, a few months ago, was the first to solve one of Newton's old equations. That wasn't something everyone had been trying hard to do, and it's not as if the boy had had only a couple of months of proper schooling then had to independently discover most of the mathematics used on his own.

 

And this is a recurring issue in Jordan's writing. Rand for example, after only a few weeks(if even that long) training with Lan he is able to defeat a Blademaster in single combat. When is the last time you heard about someone taking the title in a combat sport after only a couple weeks of training?

 

Or Mat, after only a short time with Thom he can perform juggling feats it takes years to learn

[Cybertrolloc]

Agreed on the last, Zorlon.

 

Something to consider is with channeling, offense doesn't vastly outstrip defense as is the case with us (things are much harder to build/protect than to wreck). Granted that's probably changed in OP revamp #4593427, and it'll be all glass cannons in Tarmon Gaidan :)

[Vardar]

My approach was poor, so instead I will direct you to a detailed account of what actually happened in the War of Power Robert Jordan wrote in the Guide. http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0312862199

I've read that. I just don't think it holds up to scrutiny when considered in light of everything else said about the WoP being a total war in which entire cities were being balefired.

 

As to Nynaeve, I probably misread, but didn't know you were referring to the AoL here. In which case, I agree, but there are real world cases like this. Many major discoveries in science and other areas have come randomly. Plus the Pattern and Wheel had a hand in it most likely.

I wasn't only referring to the AoL, but figured there'd be less potential for argument on that topic than a discussion about the merits of fresh eyes vs proper training.

 

But since you bring it up, yes lots of discoveries have come randomly in the sciences, but those were not the sort of discoveries hundreds of properly trained and equipped researchers failed to make. Nor were they discovered by half trained neophytes. Even self taught people are still fully taught in all the relevant material.

 

Even that German/Indian lad who, a few months ago, was the first to solve one of Newton's old equations. That wasn't something everyone had been trying hard to do, and it's not as if the boy had had only a couple of months of proper schooling then had to independently discover most of the mathematics used on his own.

 

And this is a recurring issue in Jordan's writing. Rand for example, after only a few weeks(if even that long) training with Lan he is able to defeat a Blademaster in single combat. When is the last time you heard about someone taking the title in a combat sport after only a couple weeks of training?

 

Or Mat, after only a short time with Thom he can perform juggling feats it takes years to learn

 

Yes but how often did people burn themselves out in the AOL? We know they only stilled criminals, and even then only if they refused to use the oath rod, it was really rare. So you just don't have the people to test it on. That's ignoring the whole, no one wants to test those people because it's depressing to them.

[Kestrel]

Why should they risk permanent stilling when they have access to angreals which make up the difference?

 

Siuan and Leane seem to be comfortable in their diminished roles. Having felt the weight of responsibility of being in charge of the White Tower, they don't seem interested in regaining leadership roles.

 

Now, IF a male channeler eventually figures out how to Heal stilled women, and IF said male channeler establishes a good success record, Siuan and Leane might consider the procedure. Keep in mind, however, that it's not easy to re-break and re-set a bone once it has been encased in calcium deposits. Same problem applies when badly healed soft tissue is riddled with scars. Re-stilling and re-healing someone would bear a similar risk.

[csarmi]

I'd guess the damage is permanent.

[Sharaman]

The best shot would be for them to be stilled accidentally on purpose and handed over to Flynn with somebody keeping notes.

[Orderofolde]

But a male can't Heal them further, because they can already channel, and thus there's nothing to Heal, right? If so, I could theoretically see this going either way.

I think I remember seeing this question asked before. "Men and Women working together with the power were able to achieve great things" comes to mind. I think that much as we see Damer Flinn heal Rand's second side wound a little bit better than the women did, a man might be able to strengthen that bridged gap where what was severed has been healed again. Think of Nynaeve as only being able to repair the opening of a pipe to a half inch when it originally used to be an inch. He can come along and maybe mend it a bit better. However, a man and woman working together might be able to repair the bridge/access to its original nature, as if it had never been severed.

[Oort]

Now, IF a male channeler eventually figures out how to Heal stilled women, and IF said male channeler establishes a good success record, Siuan and Leane might consider the procedure. Keep in mind, however, that it's not easy to re-break and re-set a bone once it has been encased in calcium deposits. Same problem applies when badly healed soft tissue is riddled with scars. Re-stilling and re-healing someone would bear a similar risk.

 

You mean like that one Asha'man who Healed the Aes Sedai who were stilled when Rand broke out of the box?

[TristanWebb]

I thought it would be the same principle as the cleansing of the taint. Saidar repels Saidin. So when you bridge a saidar link with saidar, you get a sticky effect that saps the power away. When you bridge it with saidin you get a nice clean pipe that saidar doesn't want to touch.