Callandor

[dalic]

I thought this is kind of odd. It may not mean anything, or it may have been discussed before. The word Callandor can be separated into Call Andor. Kind of silly but still interesting.

[Artemis]

Just coincedence i think , lol , can you imagine that?

*Rand picks up Callandor*

Yeah... Dyelin?No i want to speak to Elayne...Shes not in right now? Okay , can i leave a message?

[Siswaiaman]

You have reached the Lion throne, sorry we're not here right now but please leave a message and a Daughter-heir will get back to you as soon as possible. BEEP

[billoumm7]

maybe it means something, after all rand is from andor, even if the two rivers is pretty much its own country... or it could just have been a typo that jordan stuck with.

 

but callandor is awesome! idk why rand bothers to carry an other sword! all he needs is callandor and the great sa'angrel (forget name right now) and he is set!

[aussie_ashaman123]

lol, neither would help him against the gholam, or if he was shielded by 13 aes sedai.

[Luckers]

Theoretically Callandor may well give him enough strength to resist a circle of thirteen--it would depend on which circle of thirteen it was, and the exact amount of strength Callandor can draw upon, but it would be a close matched thing... provided, you know, Callandor didn't burn him to a cinder.

 

 

[algspkr]

I thought we had a line from Rand that with Callandor he was a match for a hunderd men?

[BrainFireBob]

Excalibur came from Caliburn which came from something Celtic.

 

Point is, Callandor's pretty much pointing straight at Excalibur if you know Excalibur's etymology.

[Corbett]

I was under te understanding that no matter how much of the power you were channeling that a circle of 13 could cut you off. From what has been said in the books it would seem that even if a man was accessing th Choden Kal that he could be cut off by a full cirlce.

[Luckers]

There's nothing to support that in the books--indeed, its actually against the implications clearly stated in CoT. When the Aes Sedai directly ask if their circles would be able to stand against what they sense of the Choedan Kal they say no. If they were simply able to rely on the shield fallback it would have been mentioned.

 

But in any case its not nessasary. Even thirteen women at Daigian's strength contributing only 75% of her strength to the circle the circles total strength would still exceed that of the strongest male strength, and thats all thats ever stated in the books--that even thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai in the Tower would be able to overwhelm Rand linked.

 

And in case you don't believe me, here comes the maths. The cut of level strength to become Aes Sedai is somewhere around 38.5 units of strength (on a scale of 100, which we know thanks to RJ pre-KoD Blog comment reguarding 62.5% of women having the strength to gain the shawl). Based on description of linked circles we know that whilst each woman does not merely contribute all of her strength to the circle, it's still a considerable amount--probably somewhere between 85% and 90% each. But since this is uncertain ill drop it to 75% for the sake of making this point.

 

So, 13 women contributing 75% of 38.5 units of strength means the circles end strength is roughly around 375.4 units of strength.

 

Against that, men cannot compete. We know that the male top strength is somwhere around 104 to 109 units of strength (depending on what RJ meant when he said that the top male strength was a 'level or two' above the top female strength in reference to his 21 levels of female strength--if it was a level, then 104, if it was two, then 109) in any case a full circle of thirteen would be able to overcome any such man.

 

Even with an angreal, but not with the Choedan Kal, and probably not with Callandor, though that remains... blurry.

 

[BrainFireBob]

Not accurate.

 

We are definitively told that the thirteen weakest women ever put out by the Tower could overwhelm any man, no matter how strong, if he's unaided (meaning no angreal or sa'angreal).

 

Since it takes more volume of power to shield someone already embracing the source than they are drawing, from this we can conclude that:

 

Ultimate potential male strength<(formula for combining thirteen weakest women from the Tower)

 

This is a) A statement about the minimum strength of Aes Sedai, and b) A statement about the theoretical maximum a channeller can obtain unaided.

 

No part of it reflects on angreal, sa'angreal, or the like.

[Luckers]

Bob... was that a reply to me or to Corbett?

 

 

[The Lost One]

Just curious what everyone thinks....I have seen it said on here that angreal and the like act like a multiplier of the power a channler can hold.  So what multiplier would you use for the following:

 

Callandor?

 

Little Fat Man Angreal?

 

Choedan Kal?

 

Greandal's ring (supposed to be weak)?

 

Verin's trinket (supposed to be weak)?

 

Mor.'s woman statue?

 

Avi and Ely's turtle?

 

There are a few others, but I just wanted to get an idea of what everyone thought about these.  I always thought the turtle that Avi and Ely have might be equal to the Fat Man Angreal that Rand had?  as well as the one Mor. had at the beginning of the series  - or close.  Callandor was well beyond those and the Choedan Kal well beyone Callandor.

 

 

[aevogt]

So, if two channelers are accessing the source via the same angreal, do they each get half of the total available or a proportion based on strength?

 

When Asmo and Rand are fighting over the access key in Rhuidean they both have half the power of the CK.  But Asmodean is not as inherently strong with the Power as Rand. 

 

Another way, Would Daighan be able to handle as much through the female CK (before it was destroyed) as Nynaeve would have?

 

The real question does an Angreal simply let a channeler access X amount of the Source, or do they multiply that channelers innate ability?

 

 

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

in some instances, they've multiplied the user's strength, and in some cases, it's SEEMED like they give a fixed, unproportional limit.

 

two instances i'm referring to are the asmodean/rand choeden kal fight and the bowl of the winds activation scene when elayne gives an angreal to aviendha. she says it increases her strength by half and that it would increase nynaeve's by even more.

 

assuming everything i stated above holds true, then the difference in the mode of OP delivery can be one of the following:

-saidar vs. saidin(saidar sa'/angreal could be multipliers, whereas saidin ones would be fixed amounts)

-angreal vs. sa'angreal(angreal could be multipliers, whereas sa'angreal could deliver fixed amounts)

 

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

Another way, Would Daighan be able to handle as much through the female CK (before it was destroyed) as Nynaeve would have?

 

Lanfear was enraged when she felt the Choedan Kal and said that Rand had found a woman "strong enough" to use it.  I imagine that meant stamina - that someone like Daighan would not be able to handle the massive amount of Power that came through the CK, whereas someone used to bigger flows like Nyneave, Alivia, Lanfear, or even Cadsuane would be able to use it without being burned to a cinder by all that Power.  Even Cadsuane seemed hesitant when it came to the CK, though.

[BrainFireBob]

Corbett- I didn't see your reply until after I posted!

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think it less to do with strength and more to do with how big a flow you can handle. Nynaeve is used to large amounts of the OP, Daighan isnt, its like expecting a weekend weekend cyclist to win the tour de france

[Corbett]

Luckers- From what I have seen from your knowledge and how you can back everything up I pretty much trust everything you say unless you tell everyone I AM GUESSING HERE. There is definatly no need to say if you believe me. And your right I had no proof that I know of that is just what i understood.

[The Lost One]

Lanfear was enraged when she felt the Choedan Kal and said that Rand had found a woman "strong enough" to use it.  I imagine that meant stamina - that someone like Daighan would not be able to handle the massive amount of Power that came through the CK, whereas someone used to bigger flows like Nyneave, Alivia, Lanfear, or even Cadsuane would be able to use it without being burned to a cinder by all that Power.  Even Cadsuane seemed hesitant when it came to the CK, though.

 

This is something that I really hadn't considered.  So you think someone must have enough strength in the power even to use some of these items? 

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Excalibur came from Caliburn which came from something Celtic.

 

Point is, Callandor's pretty much pointing straight at Excalibur if you know Excalibur's etymology.

 

Another theory states that "Caliburnus" is ultimately derived from Latin chalybs "steel", which is in turn derived from Chalybes, the name of an Anatolian ironworking tribe. According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable by Ebenezer Cobham Brewer, Excalibur was originally derived from the Latin phrase Ex calce liberatus, "liberated from the stone". In Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, Excalibur is said to mean "cut-steel", which some have interpreted to mean "steel-cutter".

 

The above is taken from Wikipedia.

 

I’ve heard a variation of the above a couple of times. The theory basically runs like this: There was a tribe, often thought to have been in Spain, that was famed for producing steel blades, which at the time were incredibly rare. – Think of Toledo steel which starts to make a name for itself later on. They were referred to as the Calibans, or some Latinized version of the word. Given that these blades were so rare, people might have made a big deal about owning one. As result, there’s a chance that people might refer to a steel blade as a “Caliban blade/sword.” Julius Caesar was supposed to have carried one when he invaded Britain. The jump from Caliban to Excalibur isn't far, esp. as it'll have been transliterated into Welsh or some other old language spoken in the British Isles.

 

There’s also a possible tie-in to the Celtic blade, as Brainfirebob stated, that’s listed in Wiki too. I don’t think this particular wiki ref. is too far off the mark from what I’ve read. But, hey, we'll never know. Callandor is, as Brainfirebob stated, clearly inspired by the Excalibur/Arthur myth.

[trakand_01]

quote author=The Lost One link=topic=910.msg739814#msg739814 date=1205847374]

Lanfear was enraged when she felt the Choedan Kal and said that Rand had found a woman "strong enough" to use it.  I imagine that meant stamina - that someone like Daighan would not be able to handle the massive amount of Power that came through the CK, whereas someone used to bigger flows like Nyneave, Alivia, Lanfear, or even Cadsuane would be able to use it without being burned to a cinder by all that Power.  Even Cadsuane seemed hesitant when it came to the CK, though.

 

This is something that I really hadn't considered.  So you think someone must have enough strength in the power even to use some of these items? 

 

 

 

Absolutely, yes. Some items have little or no buffers on them, for example Callandor.

 

It stands to logical reasoning that some items are 'stronger' than others, that the power doesnt come through them in a trickle, but as a torrent.

 

I think of it like water in a reservoir; a slow, measely little river (power through a weaker ter'angreal) will make a little lake, but it will be calm and a simple dam will hold it (weaker channeler). A big, strong gushing river however (more powerful ter'angreal) will create a huge, strong body of water that will need a much stronger defence or dam (stronger channeler) to hold it. The little defence in the first example would soon be destroyed by such a strong force of water.

 

That's kind of like the channelers, surely? We see lots of occasions where weaker channelers say something to the like of "I could never hold that much of the power" or some such. Some angreal / ter'angreal I'm sure, can only safely be handled by a woman with the ability to take much more of the power (a stronger dam). A weaker woman would surely be overcome by the power drawn through the object.

[Harmless Bandit]

IIRC, Callandor is the third most powerful [male?] s'angreal ever made. And I believe that Moiraine or Verin said that with it you can level a city in just one blow. That sounds kinda powerful to me, hence why I believe a circle of thirteen women cannot shield a man who is already holding the Power through Callandor (a man of Rand's strength, for example).

 

As for the Choedan Kal, no can do.

 

On the subject of how much one can hold with angreal and s'angreal, it seems logical to me that a person of great strength, Nynaeve for instance, would be able to draw more Power than Moiraine, using the same angreal. Depending on the angreal's limits, of course.

[Luckers]

That sounds kinda powerful to me, hence why I believe a circle of thirteen women cannot shield a man who is already holding the Power through Callandor (a man of Rand's strength, for example).

 

Well, to be fair Rand says that unaided he could lay waste to a farm that covered a fair few miles in a matter of minutes.

 

But yeah, i really don't see a circle being able to shield a man using Callandor.

 

Luckers- From what I have seen from your knowledge and how you can back everything up I pretty much trust everything you say unless you tell everyone I AM GUESSING HERE. There is definatly no need to say if you believe me. And your right I had no proof that I know of that is just what i understood.

 

Lol, i wasn't trying to imply anything--and since a lot of my comment was based on deduction your really should have pressed me for my reasons had i not offered them, heh.

 

elayne gives an angreal to aviendha. she says it increases her strength by half and that it would increase nynaeve's by even more.

 

She actually says that it would allow herself (or Aviendha since they are the same strength) to channel twice the amount that Nynaeve could. Nynaeve would be able to channel even more.

 

Even so, as a very strong angreal it sets that at best angreal can no more than triple the strongest womans strength.

 

It's also why i see Aviendha and Graendal facing off. Graendal with a very weak angreal, but as a much stronger women would probably fall in equal to Aviendha, who is weaker, but has a very strong angreal. That and Aviendha hasn't really done much, and is in the right local.

[trakand_01]

That sounds kinda powerful to me, hence why I believe a circle of thirteen women cannot shield a man who is already holding the Power through Callandor (a man of Rand's strength, for example).

 

Well, to be fair Rand says that unaided he could lay waste to a farm that covered a fair few miles in a matter of minutes.

 

 

Isnt this something like what Rand was thinking when he laid waste to the Seanchan and his own armies outside Illian? Narishma brought him Callandor, and he took hold of it then was thinking how the Asha'man could do this alone, hell, HE could do it alone, and he went a bit... special... for a bit and killed Morr, half his army and (unbeknown to him) a fair few Seanchan too.