Just how rich are the characters?

[A Bird in Seleisin]

Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question but just how rich are the characters in WoT?

 

I thought of this question when I realized how much gold they have.

In TSR, Moiraine gives enough gold to Nyneave and Elayne to buy an entire fleet of ships. And I'm sure I read somewhere that someone had enough gold to buy 2 villages.

And in New Spring, it was stated that an Aes Sedai receives a thousand gold mark stipend from the Tower each year. Which looks a lot, but in the chapters after, Moiraine bought dresses for ten gold marks each and I recall she bought at least 20. For me, this makes the salary of Aes sedai pretty low, because

that means if an Aes sedai decides to splurge for a hundred dresses then they would have spent their entire year's funds. And in my opinion, a hundred dresses isn't a lot at all for a rich woman. (Or maybe that's because I'm thinking of the Hollywood lifestyle)

 

In relation to this, can somebody give me a rough idea on the how much their money is in today's currency?

I recall that Mat in TSR gives a servant a Tar Valon gold mark and the servant was shocked. Is that akin to like giving somebody $50 USD in today's time?

In contrast, when Nynaeve gave Valan Luca a silver penny, he got angry. I know that they always relate the worth of the money by relating it to "the price of a good horse back home" but I have no idea how much a horse costs either.

 

And finally, just how big is the gap between those who are rich and the poor?

Our main characters seem to fling money about but I recall that Elayne's chump change in TGH containing only a few silvers to be enough to live for a month according to Nyneave (before the prices increased anyway)

 

Thanks for all those who will reply/ discuss :)

[Gabriel Kross]

Moiraine is Damodred blood so she has alot of money, a normal Aes Sedai doesn't buy that many dresses, most Aes Sedai stayed in the Tower only Reds really seemed to come and go alot or that's the impression I got, so 1000 gold a year is still alot. since they are just kinda chilling in the tower, 300 years worth of gold adds up...

[Nightstrike]

She went to the best seamstress in Tar Valon. Moiraine is rich from the start, and I suppose most new Aes Sedai don't dive into adventure right upon being raised. They could also get more funds, if needed. Less than half the sisters are in Tar Valon at the start of New Spring, so they don't all just stay in Tar Valon.

[Nightstrike]

And in New Spring, it was stated that an Aes Sedai receives a thousand gold mark stipend from the Tower each year. Which looks a lot, but in the chapters after, Moiraine bought dresses for ten gold marks each and I recall she bought at least 20. For me, this makes the salary of Aes sedai pretty low, because

that means if an Aes sedai decides to splurge for a hundred dresses then they would have spent their entire year's funds. And in my opinion, a hundred dresses isn't a lot at all for a rich woman. (Or maybe that's because I'm thinking of the Hollywood lifestyle)

It was 1 000 gold Crowns, so they are even richer.

[A Bird in Seleisin]

And in New Spring, it was stated that an Aes Sedai receives a thousand gold mark stipend from the Tower each year. Which looks a lot, but in the chapters after, Moiraine bought dresses for ten gold marks each and I recall she bought at least 20. For me, this makes the salary of Aes sedai pretty low, because

that means if an Aes sedai decides to splurge for a hundred dresses then they would have spent their entire year's funds. And in my opinion, a hundred dresses isn't a lot at all for a rich woman. (Or maybe that's because I'm thinking of the Hollywood lifestyle)

It was 1 000 gold Crowns, so they are even richer.

 

Oh, I see, that makes more sense. Thanks for clearing it up, it's been a while since I read New Spring. 1000 gold crowns would mean 20000 gold marks. Now, I think it's a little too much.No wonder they fling money about. I wonder what they do with all the money they collect.

 

And yeah, Moiraine is definitely rich, i'm thinking maybe top 3% of the population or higher even.

[David Selig]

The price of the dresses Moiraine bought was in gold crowns too, not gold marks. She could afford it easily though, she is a royalty and owns big estates in Cairhien in addition to her income from the White Tower.

 

100 gold crowns are enough to buy a very large farm according to Moiraine.

 

Elayne had "ten gold marks and perhaps twice that in silver" when she went to Falme. Nynaeve expected this to be more than enough, but the prices were much higher than she expected and they run out of money.

[A Bird in Seleisin]

The price of the dresses Moiraine bought was in gold crowns too, not gold marks. She could afford it easily though, she is a royalty and owns big estates in Cairhien in addition to her income from the White Tower.

 

100 gold crowns are enough to buy a very large farm according to Moiraine.

 

Elayne had "ten gold marks and perhaps twice that in silver" when she went to Falme. Nynaeve expected this to be more than enough, but the prices were much higher than she expected and they run out of money.

 

Aaargh.. this is what i get when i post without checking again first. I think I assumed that marks were the highest denominator hence the confusion. Now I'm not sure once again whether a thousand gold crowns is enough salary for an Aes Sedai. I don't think it's only Moiraine (even if she's rich from the start) who buys dresses at ten gold crowns each, she asked the opinions of other Aes sedai for the best seamstress in Tar Valon so I would assume that other sisters bought their dresses there too. I also wonder if their stipend increased since it's already between 20 years since then.

 

Also, it turns out that Elayne's "chump change" is not that small after all. Another mistake of mine again, so sorry. but now I checked the chapter again. it turns out that Elayne thought that that amount will be enough for 2 to 3 weeks while Nyneave thinks 2 to 3 months, in comfort. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this though. My thoughts are there but it's not forming coherently.

[boli]

Rand is loaded tbh - if he chooses to claim it that is.

 

A fifth of the treasure that was in the Stone of Tear belongs to those who took the Stone, and will be claimed when they can carry it away.” Sulin spoke as to a child, instructing it in the simple facts of everyday life. “As chief and battle leader there, one tenth of that fifth is yours. Tear submitted to you as chief by right of triumph, so one tenth of Tear is yours as well. And you have said we can take the fifth in these lands—a . . . tax, you called it.” She fumbled the word; the Aiel did not have taxes. “The tenth part of that is yours also, as Car’a’carn.”

 

So he owns 10% of 20% (2%) of the plunder of Tear, Illian and Carihein from "the fifth"... and an additional 10% of Tear, Illian and Carihein as they submitted to him as war-leader. 12% of 3 nations he owns by right of conquest... the 10,000 crown wager didn't even faze the Aiel who made the bet in his honour so I'm guessing his fortune is in the millions of gold crowns - perhaps even billions.

 

Part of the ambiguity of wealth is the distribution of it; In a village such as the Two Rivers a Silver penny is a large amount; in much a way that giving a small child a £10 note and sending them to the sweet shop to buy 1p sweets. But sent the same child to the shop to buy a DVD or computer game and they'll come back asking for more money.

 

Most if not all of the trade in the two rivers conducted by themselves will be pure barter and favours with the few coins they have making up the difference - even peddlers bascially trade tabac and wool for manufactured goods and luxuries. A small farm in the two rivers will be worth maybe a few gold crowns; simply as that is what it'll "cost" the new occupiers in order to "pay" their friends to help both build it and clear the land in food and accomadation.

 

Tax in most farming communities was for years was never money... but something like 5-10% of their production; when this reaches the city rulers/merchants will be able to distribute food for coin; in effect "taxing" the population even before monetary taxes are collected. In this method inflation is much higher within cities than villages. So the same amount of money will not be able to buy as much in one place as it will in another.

 

The scale of money is thus: (from the BWB)

 

10 copper pennies = 1 silver penny

10 silver pennies = 1 silver mark

10 silver marks = 1 silver crown

10 silver crowns = 1 gold mark

10 gold marks = 1 gold crown

 

If we consider that 1 Silver Mark is 1 Dollar than:

 

1c - Copper Penny

10c - Silver Penny

$1 - Silver Mark

$10 - Silver Crown

$100 - Gold Mark

$1000 Gold Crown

 

Rand makes a Wager in tFoH for 10,000 Gold Crowns - in his mind that is $10,000,000 a STAGGERING amount of money; and Nyneave considers 30 Gold marks ($3000) enough to last for months. But in the same light consider Moiraine thinkign $100,000 (100 gold crowns) will buy a very large farm is also a bit off and contridictory to what Nyneave and Matt think about when they consider the price of things. This system doesn't make any sense whatsoever... except it does if you consider the entire system to be a two-tier economy as mentioned above. Silver is thrown about as tips and occasionally even gold; so lets remove copper from the list and recalculate:

 

1c - Silver Penny

10c - Silver Mark

$1 - Silver Crown

$10 - Gold Mark

$100 Gold Crown

 

The lower denominations are used in the outlieing communities, the peasants and are used to buy food direct from the farmer. When in the cities the price of food is increased due to centralised control (either by merchants or the ruler directly) so prices are raised significantly - in fact increased by a factor of 10. The prices mentioned are a lot more believeable:

 

$1,000,000 wager (up from $100,000) - entirely possible with nobility

$10,000 large farm

$10,000 yearly Aes Sedai Wage

$1,000 dress from a fancy dress maker

$300 all Nyneave/Elayne had to live off.

[Suttree]

Moiraine is Damodred blood so she has alot of money, a normal Aes Sedai doesn't buy that many dresses, most Aes Sedai stayed in the Tower only Reds really seemed to come and go alot or that's the impression I got, so 1000 gold a year is still alot. since they are just kinda chilling in the tower, 300 years worth of gold adds up...

 

That isn't correct. They may settle down after a certain age but the majority of sisters room we see in the WT has mementos from a long life lived adventuring. At any given time there are more than a 1/3 of the Sisters out working in the word.

 

TGS

Maps hung within delicate frames, centered on the walls like prized pieces of art. A pair of Aiel spears hung on either side of one map; another was a map of the Sea Folk islands. While many might have opted for the porcelain keepsakes that were so commonly associated with the Sea Folk, Meidani had a small collection of earrings and painted shells, carefully framed and displayed, along with a small plaque beneath listing dates of collection.

 

The sitting room was like a museum dedicated to one person's journeys. An Altaran marriage knife, set with four twinkling rubies, hung beside a small Cairhienin banner and a Shienar sword. Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

 

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter. It was of strange design, woven from what seemed to be tiny, dyed reeds, with tufts of an exotic gray fur trimming the edges. The pattern depicted exotic creatures with long necks.

 

Meidani herself sat on a curious chair made from woven wicker boughs, crafted to look like a growing thicket of branches that just happened to take the shape of a chair. It would have been horribly out of place in any other room in the Tower, but it fit within these quarters, where each item was different, none of them related yet somehow all connected with the common theme of gifts received during travels.

 

As for wealth people need to keep in mind that Tar Valon is the main economic power in the Westlands. Their place upon the river ensures them a cut of the crucial N/S trade.

[randsc]

If at any given time, 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are out of the Tower, that means 2/3 are IN the Tower. And we know that some are described as not leaving the Tower for many years. So while "chilling out in the Tower" may be an overstatement, the general point is valid. They're getting 1000 crowns, and only spend an average of 120 days a year "in the world." Meaning their budget, for those days, would allow them to buy a large farm every two weeks. They're extremely well paid.

 

And not all from trade. The interuption of tribute payments from the Borderlands causes the Tower financial distress. So tribute matters.

 

Now personally, I think the Aes Sedai owe the Borderland peasants rather more, in exchange for that tribute, than they have been giving.

 

Or, of course, we could entertain a heresey. Namely, that Jordan did not, in spite of his protestations to the contrary, work out every detail in advance. And that this sort of comparative analysis of prices and values didn't occur to him before the books were written.

[randsc]

It is also possible that Moiraine doesn't really know what a large farm costs as well as she knows what a dress costs.

[Nightstrike]

If at any given time, 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are out of the Tower, that means 2/3 are IN the Tower. And we know that some are described as not leaving the Tower for many years. So while "chilling out in the Tower" may be an overstatement, the general point is valid. They're getting 1000 crowns, and only spend an average of 120 days a year "in the world." Meaning their budget, for those days, would allow them to buy a large farm every two weeks. They're extremely well paid.

They were less than half the sisters in Tar Valon in the beginning of NS, and there were 1/3 in the tower after Elaida took the seat (1/3 with the rebels and 1/3 neutral). True, there were people killed and people who fled, but still, it gives one some idea. I'd say there are probably more than half the sisters out during most times.

[randsc]

If at any given time, 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are out of the Tower, that means 2/3 are IN the Tower. And we know that some are described as not leaving the Tower for many years. So while "chilling out in the Tower" may be an overstatement, the general point is valid. They're getting 1000 crowns, and only spend an average of 120 days a year "in the world." Meaning their budget, for those days, would allow them to buy a large farm every two weeks. They're extremely well paid.

They were less than half the sisters in Tar Valon in the beginning of NS, and there were 1/3 in the tower after Elaida took the seat (1/3 with the rebels and 1/3 neutral). True, there were people killed and people who fled, but still, it gives one some idea. I'd say there are probably more than half the sisters out during most times.

 

Think about that for a minute. What was going on at the beginning of NS? Not typical times. I think Suttree's basic number is probably about right.

[rand4747]

land is probably not at a very high premium as it is now, so it is cheap. near the cities probably are more expensive but the larger farms are probably far from the cities.

[Orderofolde]

Moiraine is Damodred blood so she has alot of money, a normal Aes Sedai doesn't buy that many dresses, most Aes Sedai stayed in the Tower only Reds really seemed to come and go alot or that's the impression I got, so 1000 gold a year is still alot. since they are just kinda chilling in the tower, 300 years worth of gold adds up...

Not to mention that they get rooms for life within their Ajah's quarters and servants of the Tower cater to them, delivering them meals, paper, ink, whatever that they have need of. True, most browns don't have a lot of dresses and are probably banking, but a lot who come to the tower are daughters of nobles so whether they just train at the tower or have the spark or can actually learn to channel, they come from their own money. Aes Sedai in traveling (depending on the land and their regard for AS) usually have their rooms and meals provided as gifts. They don't run off once they get the shawl, usually they spend a few years learning all the various weaves now that they are full sisters in addition to their Ajah's own secret weaves. Remember Siuan remained behind to be coached to be a sitter eventually in New Spring. Sometimes they travel to find a Warder in the Borderlands, or go off on a jaunt with Reds or members of friendly Ajahs or are sent to do the bidding of the Tower. Those assigned to council nobles and rulers are likely paid by the ruler or the lord or lady, as well as given room and board.

 

Even 1000 marks in silver is an insane amount as we see when Rand and Mat and Perrin are all given a Tar Valon Mark in the beginning by Moiraine. It would have set them up for a week in any Inn, bought them any number of items like a pair of good boots or a horse with much left over. One of the silver Marks according to Thom would have paid for three passages all the way down river to Illian. I'm trying to think of other comparisons off hand but there really are too many. We see how steeply horse flesh goes up from Mat's POV with the army of Seanchan snatching up all the horses it can to outfit its soldiers.

[Nightstrike]

Think about that for a minute. What was going on at the beginning of NS? Not typical times. I think Suttree's basic number is probably about right.

Do you have anything at all that suggests that most sisters are in Tar Valon at "typical times"? Anything at all?

[Nightstrike]

What's typical times anyway? If it means nothing goes on anywhere, or at least as little as possible, then we aren't likely to ever see it in the books. We've got to hear of it from a learned brown or something like that. I don't think we have.

[A Bird in Seleisin]

Rand is loaded tbh - if he chooses to claim it that is.

 

A fifth of the treasure that was in the Stone of Tear belongs to those who took the Stone, and will be claimed when they can carry it away.” Sulin spoke as to a child, instructing it in the simple facts of everyday life. “As chief and battle leader there, one tenth of that fifth is yours. Tear submitted to you as chief by right of triumph, so one tenth of Tear is yours as well. And you have said we can take the fifth in these lands—a . . . tax, you called it.” She fumbled the word; the Aiel did not have taxes. “The tenth part of that is yours also, as Car’a’carn.”

 

So he owns 10% of 20% (2%) of the plunder of Tear, Illian and Carihein from "the fifth"... and an additional 10% of Tear, Illian and Carihein as they submitted to him as war-leader. 12% of 3 nations he owns by right of conquest... the 10,000 crown wager didn't even faze the Aiel who made the bet in his honour so I'm guessing his fortune is in the millions of gold crowns - perhaps even billions.

 

Part of the ambiguity of wealth is the distribution of it; In a village such as the Two Rivers a Silver penny is a large amount; in much a way that giving a small child a £10 note and sending them to the sweet shop to buy 1p sweets. But sent the same child to the shop to buy a DVD or computer game and they'll come back asking for more money.

 

Most if not all of the trade in the two rivers conducted by themselves will be pure barter and favours with the few coins they have making up the difference - even peddlers bascially trade tabac and wool for manufactured goods and luxuries. A small farm in the two rivers will be worth maybe a few gold crowns; simply as that is what it'll "cost" the new occupiers in order to "pay" their friends to help both build it and clear the land in food and accomadation.

 

Tax in most farming communities was for years was never money... but something like 5-10% of their production; when this reaches the city rulers/merchants will be able to distribute food for coin; in effect "taxing" the population even before monetary taxes are collected. In this method inflation is much higher within cities than villages. So the same amount of money will not be able to buy as much in one place as it will in another.

 

The scale of money is thus: (from the BWB)

 

10 copper pennies = 1 silver penny

10 silver pennies = 1 silver mark

10 silver marks = 1 silver crown

10 silver crowns = 1 gold mark

10 gold marks = 1 gold crown

 

If we consider that 1 Silver Mark is 1 Dollar than:

 

1c - Copper Penny

10c - Silver Penny

$1 - Silver Mark

$10 - Silver Crown

$100 - Gold Mark

$1000 Gold Crown

 

Rand makes a Wager in tFoH for 10,000 Gold Crowns - in his mind that is $10,000,000 a STAGGERING amount of money; and Nyneave considers 30 Gold marks ($3000) enough to last for months. But in the same light consider Moiraine thinkign $100,000 (100 gold crowns) will buy a very large farm is also a bit off and contridictory to what Nyneave and Matt think about when they consider the price of things. This system doesn't make any sense whatsoever... except it does if you consider the entire system to be a two-tier economy as mentioned above. Silver is thrown about as tips and occasionally even gold; so lets remove copper from the list and recalculate:

 

1c - Silver Penny

10c - Silver Mark

$1 - Silver Crown

$10 - Gold Mark

$100 Gold Crown

 

The lower denominations are used in the outlieing communities, the peasants and are used to buy food direct from the farmer. When in the cities the price of food is increased due to centralised control (either by merchants or the ruler directly) so prices are raised significantly - in fact increased by a factor of 10. The prices mentioned are a lot more believeable:

 

$1,000,000 wager (up from $100,000) - entirely possible with nobility

$10,000 large farm

$10,000 yearly Aes Sedai Wage

$1,000 dress from a fancy dress maker

$300 all Nyneave/Elayne had to live off.

 

Thanks for this great analysis of conversion rates!

Some of my thoughts:

Didn't Elayne or Moiraine mention that stablemen usually get coppers more often than silver which is why a certain stableman knuckled his forehead and went to fetch the horse quickly? And as someone already mentioned the silver penny that Moiraine gave the three boys at the start of the series was enough to buy a horse with something left over. According to the scale you made, that's only either 10c or 1c. That's really really cheap. This makes me think that somewhere along the series prices inflated in an amazingly fast rate or prices in the Two rivers are really low since they are at the edge of the world after all. And I also agree that land is also cheap away from the ciites since there are vast undeveloped lands after all. But I can't help but feel that there's still too large a gap in the prices.

 

Also a question only for clarification: Am I right in remembering that the Aiel do not deal with coins but rather do barter?

[David Selig]

Moiraine gave the boys a silver mark each.

 

This is from the Glossary, a bit more info on currency in Randland:

 

After many centuries of trade, the standard terms for coins are the same in every land: crowns (the largest coin in size), marks and pennies. Crowns and marks can be minted of gold or silver, while pennies can be silver or copper, the last often called simply a copper. In different lands, however, these coins are of different sizes and weights. Even in one nation, coins of different sizes and weights have been minted by different rulers. Because of trade, the coins of many nations can be found almost anywhere, and for that reason, bankers, moneylenders and merchants all use scales to determine the value of any given coin. Even large numbers of coins are weighed.

 

The heaviest coins come from Andor and Tar Valon, and in those two places the relative values are: 10 copper pennies = 1 silver penny; 100 silver pennies = 1 silver mark; 10 silver marks = 1 silver crown; 10 silver crowns = 1 gold mark; 10 gold marks = 1 gold crown. By contrast, in Altara, where the larger coins contain less gold or silver, the relative values are: 10 copper pennies = 1 silver penny; 21 silver pennies = 1 silver mark; 20 silver marks = 1 silver crown; 20 silver crowns = 1 gold mark; 20 gold marks = 1 gold crown.

[master]

while its a great series, a lot of the details don't seem very logical. army sizes, languages, currency and a few other things seem to be a bit shaky. I really don't think that clever number crunching would fix the problems.

[Taura-Tierno]

I would like to add, concerning the dresses that Moiraine and Siuan bought, that those were from one of the best seamstresses in Tar Valon. The best seamstress, in the largest city in Randland, which also happens to be a commercial center. To me, that's like paying over $1000 for a suit, which some people do, but it's still possible to get away with much less. I doubt that all Aes Sedai buy the most expensive clothes that exist.

[Alric]

I seem to remember that the banking system was explained in New Spring when Moiraine and Siuan went on their shopping spree (well, Moiraine anyway). Most Aes Sedai had their money deposited either in the Tower or in Tar Valon banks, while Moiraine used a different bank so that no one in the Tower could snoop on her activities.

 

I wonder if the funds of Siuan and the other rebels were frozen and unavailable after the Tower split...

[MountaineerWV]

I would like to add, concerning the dresses that Moiraine and Siuan bought, that those were from one of the best seamstresses in Tar Valon. The best seamstress, in the largest city in Randland, which also happens to be a commercial center. To me, that's like paying over $1000 for a suit, which some people do, but it's still possible to get away with much less. I doubt that all Aes Sedai buy the most expensive clothes that exist.

 

I was thinking about this example as well.

 

$1,000 spent at the best custom tailor in New York City won't buy tie. My buddy's father does custom suits in Atlanta and they go for minimum of $10k a suit. Women's dresses are typically cheaper than men's clothing, but assuming $10k per dress, Moiraine dropped $100k on clothes. Which means one gold crown is equal to $10k as well.

 

In the WoT world, the prices are all out of wack. No way to come up with a comparative analysis. A farm that only costs 10 gold crowns? Maybe if you only grew veggies on a few acres. If you are growing a cash crop like tabac AND raising animals you need serious acreage. The farms around where I live that raise sheep have about ~130 acres and it would be a steal to find one for sale at $2,500 per acre. $325k for a farm...

 

Better be happy with the idea that Rand and Co is beyond rich - they are wealthy.

[thisguy]

Most people are poor, so it seems. If you remember, Egwene (I believe it's her) thinks about the men joining her army. Why would they, etc. She says it's because they can easily earn twice as much looking down a pike as they could pushing a plow.

[thisguy]

I would like to add, concerning the dresses that Moiraine and Siuan bought, that those were from one of the best seamstresses in Tar Valon. The best seamstress, in the largest city in Randland, which also happens to be a commercial center. To me, that's like paying over $1000 for a suit, which some people do, but it's still possible to get away with much less. I doubt that all Aes Sedai buy the most expensive clothes that exist.

 

I was thinking about this example as well.

 

$1,000 spent at the best custom tailor in New York City won't buy tie. My buddy's father does custom suits in Atlanta and they go for minimum of $10k a suit. Women's dresses are typically cheaper than men's clothing, but assuming $10k per dress, Moiraine dropped $100k on clothes. Which means one gold crown is equal to $10k as well.

 

In the WoT world, the prices are all out of wack. No way to come up with a comparative analysis. A farm that only costs 10 gold crowns? Maybe if you only grew veggies on a few acres. If you are growing a cash crop like tabac AND raising animals you need serious acreage. The farms around where I live that raise sheep have about ~130 acres and it would be a steal to find one for sale at $2,500 per acre. $325k for a farm...

 

Better be happy with the idea that Rand and Co is beyond rich - they are wealthy.

The one reason that the price of the farm could be plausible is, look at all the room they have. Seriously. There's tons of land with nobody living on it.